legislating morality = always a no.
This is a topic that I've been thinking about a lot lately and im interested in different perspectives and viewpoints.
My current stance is that abortion is absolutely acceptable in the case of rape or incest. I dont think that too many people will argue against that except the fundamentalist theists. The dangers and consequences of pregnancy should never be forced upon an unwilling participant. After that it gets more gray and complex. I believe that everyone should have the right of life. But when does that life begin? Conception? Birth? The moment a baby can live self sustained outside the womb? The moment the heart starts beating?
Is it something the government should even have a say in? I dont think so. Just because some people have an opinion that life starts at birth or whenever does not mean that it should be legislated.
Anyway, interested in hearing everyones opinion.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
I'm an atheist, but abortion is a sensitive topic for me, considering my spirituality.
Your views on abortion are contingent on when you believe life begins, whether you think it's ok if life is taken without pain / suffering, when you believe a being develops a consciousness, whether women have the absolute right to control what's in their body, etc. etc.
It's a complicated topic, and personally, I think it should be up to the woman. In the end, the woman needs to use her own moral perspective to make the decision because there is no "right" answer.
Last edited by cosmic_cs; 12-19-2012 at 08:15 PM.
Edit: double post
I'm a pragmatist, the world population recently passed 7,000,000,000, first trimester abortions should be free and easy to get. So should vasectomies.
I'm conflicted, but pro-choice. I've flipped back and forth a few times in the last ten years.
I believe life begins at conception and believe that abortion has a hint of immorality in virtually all circumstances.
I also believe that women should have the right to choose.
Philosophically I wouldn't mind the federal government allowing each state to decide, but I don't think that'd end better than what we have now.
Pragmatically I agree with the Beagle, abortion is one of the best 'tools' for increasing the quality of society.
Finally I think the pro-life movement is misguided. If you want to reduce the number of abortions the best tools are:
1. Contraception (Which is against the rules of the core pro-life religion in the west, go figure)
2. Education (Which is undermined by the pro-life political party)
3. Mother and child support (Also undermined by the pro-life political party).
Overturning roe v wade isn't happening in this generation and it seems like the only options prolifers offer are making it harder to get an abortion, which is only galvanizing the prochoicers.
Since i dont have a vagina i feel i would be a hypocrite if i told other people what they could or couldnt do with thier vaginas.
I do not want to be a hypocrite.
Tuco, the problem I have is how can you believe life begins at conception and in any way be pro choice? That's where I struggle. If you don't, I respect that, although I do differ in my opinion.
I think most people would be ok if we took the approach much of Europe does and outlawed abortions past 10 weeks. The problem isn't about finding compromise and middle ground, though, or even making abortions 'safe, legal, and rare'. It's about using abortion as a wedge issue to generate huge sums of money for ones political party, be it a 'war on women' or all those 'partial birth abortions'.
I think it is a decision to be made by a woman in consultation with their doctor at whatever stage of the pregnancy.
Was pro life growing up, but when you start drinking and getting girls pregnant... eeehhhh, thoughts change. Now, I couldn't give a fuck. I only wish more idiots would abort their kids. A different topic and discussion for women though. Girlfriend had one a year or so ago - I haven't thought of it since really (until this thread), but I imagine she does. Would have made no sense keeping it though, and would have ruined our lives (and probably his/hers as well).
Let women choose, but barring obvious situations (rape, health concerns, etc...) don't think it is something the tax dollars should be paying for. I guess that makes me pro-choice, but I personally do not agree with it.
Originally Posted by Dr. Mario Speedwagon
Not at all. But as a fetus, I wouldn't have known any better either. My parents also had me and my siblings when they were struggling financially - and its something I don't want to have to deal with (rather not have kids period, as the selfish individual I am). If we'd had the child, I know for almost a certainty my business and financial well being would be entirely different.
I was adopted at birth and I was born 8 months after Roe v. Wade was decided. I guess technically I could have been aborted, but it was a small town in the Bible Belt so there was probably still no access. So obviously I am glad I'm here, but at the same time I have been the proud papa of 3 abortions and have never felt more than a passing guilt about it. Maybe that makes me a sociopath, but what's done is done and tying myself into a knot thinking about what could have been seems like a colossal waste of time.
Again though, its easy to put it to the back of your mind as the guy. I don't understand women enough to know what they're thinking, but I've no doubt it effects them on an entirely different level.
Nothing, I was a dumb fucking kid, and it was a long time ago.
I think that not only should abortion be legal, but it should be legal up until the kid is 18. Maybe that would help keep some of these entitled shit-head kids in line...
In all seriousness though, I think Tuco hit the nail on the head. Rather than trying to decide if it is right or wrong, it would be nice if we could limit the need for it through education and access to contraception. If we could get to the point as a society where only the gray areas such as rape, incest or endangerment of the mothers life are the only circumstances in which an abortion is considered, I think we can reduce abortion down to almost a non-issue. Unfortunately the most vocal supports on either side of this issue have little interest in pursuing a course of action that could get us to that point.
So having an abortion is eliminating the inevitable possibility of life for the zygote. Whether or not you define this as killing is up to you
simply answer this question: are you a chicken murderer whenever you cook an egg ?
because im pretty sure that a pubble of organic cell isnt a human being, and with an abortion you arent killing anyone. Telling you otherwise is another way to control and tell you that life comes from god
im talking before the 24th week of course. That the period when the brain is mostly formed and has the potential to become "alive" for real
Last edited by fucker; 12-19-2012 at 10:33 PM.
2. If you cook and eat a fertilized egg then yes, you killed a chicken.
3. The definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought" which means that killing a chicken isn't murder.
4. It might be a simple issue for you but it's not for me.
3: i'm sure you noticed by other grammar errors that english is not my language
4: it's a simple issue if you don't bring spirituality and supernatural nosense in a discussion about biology. i'm sorry, but it's time we go past the idea that biologic life is some magical thing because following your logic, i suppose Terry Schiavo was alive too, right ?
Last edited by fucker; 12-19-2012 at 11:35 PM.
3. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. It's just that it's popular for people to abuse the word murder. Ex people who say that abortion is murder (It's not because abortion is legal).
3. There's no spirituality necessary for me to say that life begins at conception. I can respect it if you define life as beginning at birth or at the first trimester. But you have to define it at some point and I define it at conception.
I believe 1st Trimester should be allowed and available to women at little to no expense or obtrusion. On that level I think it's a personal choice, but I do think society has a moral obligation to do what it can through policy to limit abortions by avoiding their necessity. lack of family planning, education, and poverty are all things that can be tackled to limit abortions without writing laws directly against it. In late pregnancy I think a fetus should receive protections and rights of a living person.
Even if you believe life begins at conception, the taking of life to achieve a desired outcome is not murder, it's one of the rough decisions that we are sometimes faced with in a world full of struggles. Euthanasia deals with the same issue, so does sending men to war.
Don't care about it and at this stage I think it's stupid to argue about. The anti-abortion crowd are on the wrong side of history, simple as that. Only point I think it relevant is that they really shouldn't be necessary that often. Contraception is really fucking cheap, make that shit as available as possible and educate the fuck out of idiot teenagers. It's stupid to go through some expensive medical procedure just because little Jimmy didn't wanna wear a rubber or Susan thought that she couldn't get pregnant if believed in Jesus really hard or whatever. Fuck off, dicks shouldn't go anywhere near vaginas unless that shit is wrapped/snipped or she's on the pill/implant, preferably both.
Last edited by Azrayne; 12-20-2012 at 12:46 AM.
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
I am not a supporter of elective abortions either in fact or in theory -- but if I had a teenage daughter and she got caught I very well might tell her it was an option. Or I might not. I suppose that makes me a hypocrite. I don't care that much. It is what it is.
My stance has also softened as I age. I'm content to leave it to the woman to decide, even when I disapprove of the decision. They're right. It's not my body.
Can honestly say as a pregnant lady that my views on abortion haven't changed one bit.
I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control. However, due to the fact that this country, as evidenced clearly by this last election, much like the gun control debate (although unlike gun control its very clearly just one side going full retard instead of both), can't have a serious fucking conversation about how inhumane it would be to force a 12 year old girl to bear her father's child and that that decision should be between her, her doctor, and whatever god she subscribes to, I'm pro choice.
Pro life asshattery in this country makes me pro choice. If the womans life is in danger or incest or rape is at issue, back the motherfuck off. You get ZERO say. Its between the mother, her doctor, and god. Period. Until this country is willing to have that mentality, I'm going to choose to protect the rights of living, breathing women over unborn children. Until that day comes, my PERSONAL OPINIONS aren't going to dictate the lives of others, especially in light of the fact that the same people bitching about how black babies are an endangered species are the FIRST to talk about black welfare queens.
And don't get me started on the fact that the same states who want it 100% criminalized also have laws on the books saying that if your pregnant wife is hit by a drunk driver that you can't recover for the loss of the unborn child (wrongful death etc) because the child wasn't born alive and the state wants to be a hard ass on 'tort reform' and those out of control lawyers. Can't have it both ways faggots.
Life begins at conception for me. I'm fine with life of the mother, incest or rape. Those are pretty easy.
Otherwise both sides blow my mind. One not wanting to push prevention to the max by pushing birth control. Straight up stupid.
People sucking their kids out as a form of birth control because they didn't use protection. Sad, stupid and indicative of our me me me society. Birth control is cheap and plentiful no reason abortions should be as common as they are. Sad thing is many that go in for one go in for more.
I also find it odd people would fight to save a murderer from capital punishment (I'm against this in its current form) yet throw away a child's life. The economically beneficial arguments don't hold water with me at all as that argument could be made for tons of heinous acts. I doubt anyone knows what the extermination of tens of millions of people has done over the long run or if the one Martin Luther or Einstein we lost as a result wouldn't have been worth the rest living. Always fight for life IMO.
More pro life now that I've had kids. The sonograms really did it for me. When I was a kid they were blotchy Rorschach tests. Now you can see serious detail, it's great. I'm still pro choice by default though, even though I find the nuts on that side to be every bit as bad as the nuts on the pro life side.
I'm not a life at conception guy. First trimester... leave the government out. After that point though you're talking heartbeat, identifiable sex, facial expression and even early stages of viability. Aborting at that point is fucked up period. I think eventually people will universally look back at later term abortion as barbaric, with the sole exception of life of the mother.
No sense in being civil when they cant muster it. When republicans stop talking about my uterus as chattel I'll stop calling them faggots.
I concede that it should be a choice.. | I am undecided as to whom should be involved in the choice..
The fact that the mother has such a large stake in the pregnancy dictates that she have the largest deciding factor on the pregnancy.
Saying that, I don't think a father (if deemed fit by the state) should be without say. Though the decision resides ultimately with the mother.
I would hope that this would open the floor to other discussion for the mother but ultimately just allow her to make a more informed decision.
To say I agree with abortion would be a lie BUT it is not my place to deny another human their person. I believe that the only time the state (government) should be involved is to settle strange cases and a basis for precedent is needed for the initial outline.
What I don't agree with is people using abortion so flippantly like captain pants on head below. Not really for the use of abortion but the mentality involved.
This isn't an argument AGAINST abortion, it is an argument against assholes...
Proud? Proud of what, 3 needless abortions that could have been solved if you used a condom? Asked if she had Birth Control? Used the Morning After Pill?
Personal experience, you CAN walk into a planned parenthood location and get the morning after pill, typically free of charge...for my personal experience they threw in a moth or two supply of birth control. This is likely not the case at EVERY location obviously...but did you even seek alternatives to blowing your load and then driving off into the sunset?
Are you seriously trying to fucking white knight the entire female gender at once? They chose to have unprotected sex too.
You might not be sick of hearing republicans talking about having the right to tell you what to do with your body under all circumstances including where your own life is in danger, but I am. If you want to play the "you said a name therefore you sound uneducated" red herring card which has zero to do with all the arguments I made - good on you for trying to make it about something else. You have that luxury. (You're welcome).
As this is the internet and I can say what I truly believe and not skirt the issue I will simply say this.
No one want to have an abortion, no one wants others to have abortions, however it is a reality we need to face. It is not going away. There are too many people in this world, too many unwanted babies, and simply not enough of everything left. Abortions get rid of unwanted will-be babies.
I see nothing wrong with terminating a pregnancy before the bunch of cells becomes a baby.
I know this has been said over and over, but really it does strike home at a certain level, everyone fights for the right of the baby to be born, but they won't fight to get it the care it needs afterwards. It is as if once a baby is born we say fuck it, let the mother take care of it. Obviously she wouldn't be considering an abortion if she was able to take care of it.
Look dude, if you think I was being serious about being proud you are a dumbshit. I was being completely sarcastic. It was a stupid, irresponsible fucking thing I did, I have no excuse that's true, but it all went down 17-20 years ago, I'm not that person anymore. Afterwards I went into a dark, self destructive downward spiral that went on for ten years. Miraculously I somehow pulled out of it and straightened my life out. If I could take it back I would, but I can't and spending the rest of my life feeling guilty doesn't do anyone any good.
No one should have the right to terminate a life. Not a woman, Not a man, No one. The only exception to this is if said person intentionally terminates another life in cold blood.
Abortions should not be a right outside rape, incest, and to save the mothers life.
Free distribution of the contraceptive implant to anyone who wants it at age 13?
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
Putting that aside now since I understand how to read your posts..
If you "dun fucked up" I get it, I really do and that is my whole stance. People make fucked up decisions all the time out of desperation, fear, ignorance and selfishness.
My desire is that people receive all the support they need from doctors, psychiatrists and peers. I think these support methods would allow people to climb out of a destructive cycle (similar to what you stated was your case) and assist them to better their choices in the future.
Abortion is abortion, people were throwing their kids into the ocean since the vikings (yes, I know this is NOT what was the intent with this action). You won't ever get rid of it but that doesn't mean that you can't assist people in seeking out alternatives or help.
I think both sides of the issue closing their ears to the other is really destructive though but there are terrible ideas on both sides..
So here's a sort of scientific explanation:
1) According to science, time is an illusion. The future and past should technically be accessible in the present (or something to that effect).
2) You make a decision to have unprotected sex and a zygote forms
3) You make a decision to end the zygote's existence, knowing that with time, it will become a baby / life of some sort
4) So you killed a baby?!?
Someone please debunk my argument above! I can't think of any logical counter arguments!
If men could get pregnant, abortion would be the 1st commandment, sent down by the Lord himself, complete with an entire book of the bible dedicated to instruction on how to do it. This thread wouldn't exist. You're fucking kidding yourself if you male posters crying about this think you'd have the same opinion if you yourself could get pregnant and women could walk away and leave you struggling with a child in a society that doesn't give a shit.
You think just cause some asshole talks a girl into sex and gets her pregnant young and out of wedlock that all of her desires and dreams should be flushed down the toilet? Fuck you (the royal you, not anyone specifically in this thread, and certainly not the OP, who is a cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything). This could've easily happened to my woman, hell lots of the women in academia I've met. She'd be washing dishes in a trailer married to a west virginia pig farmer instead of unlocking the secrets of the universe. No woman is under obligation to ruin her life because you get all teary-eyed about conception. Look at the backwards shitholes that ban it, look at the backwards retards in America fighting against it. Take the hint.
As birth control gets more advanced, the number of abortions will decrease. This "problem" will solve itself.
Last edited by Orcus; 12-20-2012 at 12:27 PM.
Yeah bro, if men could get pregnant I would have the exact same opinion.
That example about the pig farmer isn't hyperbole. When you come from as backwards a place as Appalachia, that's exactly what happens. Her childhood friend was more gifted than her at mathematics. Got pregnant young, abortion out of the question, fast forward, no higher education, literally living in a trailer with a poor pig farmer, teeth rotting out of her skull. I don't mean happy mothers in stable financial situations that love mothering. That goes without saying. She could've been a female einstein but for the way her gender is treated in places like that. Breeder chattel. Might as well be a cow in a pasture.
edit: I do think I see where you're coming from and it might've sounded like I was coming down on women that want to have kids in general, or that women can't have kids and a high powered career (they can, but not alone, without lots of family and financial support, without those things, good luck). Sorry for the impression, I'm talking about women in bad situations, women who are left by the father, women stuck in 'traditional' societies that might have other hopes and dreams but are told to sit down shut up and tend the kids. That sort of thing.
Last edited by Orcus; 12-20-2012 at 01:01 PM.
I <3 abortion, people suck and we already have too many of em. I also support saving the dead fetuses, so we can launch them via catapult at anti-abortion protesters, vegans, and the westboro baptist church.
Here's another tale of love she just relayed to me.
1. Sweet girl from the Phillipines she meets at u of chicago.
2. Falls in love with good catholic boy.
3. "We can't use contraception."
5. "I'm pregnant."
6. "You can't get an abortion."
7. "I'm dumping you GTFO."
I'll second a bit of what Etoille said; a lot of my being pro-choice is because of all the pro-lifer idiots. It shouldn't be used as a form of birth control, but my stance has always been that if you're even considering abortion, either because it's not a good time in your life, you're financially strapped, etc then it's probably for the best. I've been pro-choice the majority of my life, and I think part of that is because of my mother having me so young. I mean, sure, I'm glad I wasn't aborted, but what if she had waited, and then had me? I love her, but she is a god awful mom. Pro-lifers want to require you to have the kid - this world it what it is, and people are going to fuck up, and get into bad situations, and hey, contraceptives can fail - but they don't give a shit what type of life you could be bringing that kid into.
I'm 100% pro-choice, but there are things that make me cringe a bit. I just know I hear people on welfare, and all of this other shit - raising 6 kids because you couldn't keep your legs closed. People want to say, well you got yourself into that situation, now deal with the consequences. But having a child shouldn't be a consequence, because the child suffers.
I'm too selfish of a person to have a kid, although I think because of how old I am and because the person that I love is 100% supportive of me, if I got pregnant I'd probably lean towards having it. But for a long time, I used contraceptives, and took precautions, but I always knew that my having a kid before I was ready would be terrible for the child. Sure, you could give it up, but we're talking something that grows inside of me for 9 months. Nobody should be able to make that decision for me.
That doesn't mean i'm fine and dandy with abortion; it would be a decision I took a long time to come to and wouldn't go into lightly, hence my taking precautions so that I DON'T put myself in that situation. But yea. I guess I'm pro-choice for any situation. Getting pregnant at 16 is no picnic, and we can cry all we want about how that woman's life is over because she is a mom for the rest of her life, but no one really thinks about the flip side. A kid whose quality of life might be drastically diminished because their mother wasn't ready for them at all.
I agree with this and probably just misread your post, but you seem to pose women as naive fawns who are captured by men and entrapped in a life of servitude. Though on reflection I admit that may be accurate for many young women who get knocked up before they become more mature in their 20s.Originally Posted by Orcus
I think that is a problem with both sides of the argument, too often the kid is not really afforded the proper measure of respect. You have pro-choice people who seek to minimize what constitutes a human to the point of absurdity, and pro-lifers who seem to care nothing for a kid once the threshold of birth has been past. The extremes of both positions are equally abhorrent to me.
There's an awkward inconsistency in the pro-life movement where it is joined with a small government ideology. You'd think that'd result in them saying it's not the role of the government to ban abortions, but instead they just say that it's not the role of the government to provide 'too much' for mothers and their children.
Women who have children are expected to stay at home, and doing otherwise with any resemblence of success is next to impossible.
Last edited by Quineloe; 12-20-2012 at 02:31 PM.
This is how I'd approach things.
As I said, I'm *personally* pro-life as it's my belief life begins at conception. I also respect others opinion and also realize it's a different discussion for me as I'm a guy.
For single moms its a bit harder, for obvious reasons, but still. I've never encountered a situation where I felt having kids kept me from gaining employment.
I think most of us would agree that once the collection of cells becomes a human being, it should not be killed. In the long run I think this is a science issue rather than a moral issue. In the short term, I am pro choice, but I think as much as possible should be done to make women consent to carry their babies to birth and then give them up for adoption. At the very least, women who are willing to give the baby up rather than abort it should not be left financially out of pocket, and should have all of the medical support that is needed.
100% pro-choice. Society is much healthier when abortion is legal, and people should be able to decide for themselves whether it's okay or not. Furthermore, the lives of actual living people are more important to me than those of "potential" people. Also, as Noam Chomsky alluded to in that video linked earlier, if someone actually cares about protecting life, there's about a million better ways of going about it than banning abortion. Lastly, and most importantly, banning abortion wouldn't actually work. People will still do it, and it would largely just serve to make abortion less safe for poor people while limiting safe abortions to people who can afford to travel to another country.
That said, if I got a girl pregnant I would not want her to abort it.
Maybe it is better in the US overall, but here your career is fucking over as soon as you have children as a woman.
My sister has a master's degree in IT whatevers, and Microsoft isn't even giving her her own desk as a business customer manager. (UK)
Last edited by Quineloe; 12-20-2012 at 03:17 PM.
I'm going to have to just disagree with you on this point, I don't think it seriously affects employment opportunities, if you're a woman and a company won't hire you because you have a kid/might one day have a kid, they need to be sued out of existence, and you don't want to work there anyway.
The trend has been companies becoming MORE accomodating to women's and minorities' concerns, not the opposite.
I am talking specifically about women who already have a child.
And again, how do you sue them over "sorry, position has been filled already"?
I dunno man, how did all the minorities who sued and won lawsuits against hiring discrimination do it when HR departments were so brilliant to come up with the "Sorry, the position has already been filled" response to them as well, since apparently just saying that sentence makes you permanently and totally immune from discrimination lawsuits, as per your apparent position?
Just to be clear, are you actually talking about careers with actual salaries or jobs with wages here?
Last edited by Quineloe; 12-20-2012 at 03:33 PM.
Any other takers? I didn't think I could come up with a logical and scientific reason to believe that life begins at conception, even though I've believed it for a long time.
Last edited by cosmic_cs; 12-20-2012 at 03:35 PM.
Nothing anecdotal about it, google search for "woman sues over hiring discrimination" comes back with close to a million and a half returns.
As for jobs with salaries versus wages jobs:
As for the crackhouse argument, the fact that there certainly are pro-choice people who have never been born doesn't make the "I'm glad I'm alive but I'm aborting my pregnancy because my parents weren't ready and I want my children to have good lives" any less specious.
I'm not going to go out and guilt-trip pregnant women, but let's be rational here. The quality of life of children to unready mothers isn't as high as what we want for all children but it's no justification to kill them.
As I am from Europe I am used to abortion being legal (within certain timeframes) and I fully support the mother’s choice in it.
Aside from hardcore cases like rape, medical conditions, failed contraceptives and so on, the reason for my opinion, is the lasting wellbeing of the possible child and the parents.
If someone fucks drunk on a toilet in a bar, they certainly are responsible for the pregnancy, however if you force them to get that child, it might be an awful decision for both them and the child. Maybe they are mentally not ready for that, maybe financial or they are not even a couple and this could have heavy influence on their well own being that and of the child in later years. The quality of a child’s life in modern society is not simply determined by being alive and having food enough not to die.
So as long as I feel no moral obligation to the starting life, I see it as best if the parents can make that choice in a way that benefits them and the possible child most.
I understand the argument of "ProLife" people, that is hard to define where life begins, but I strongly disagree with the idea of life beginning at contraception and I feel that it is often simply an argument of not really knowing better and being spiritual or stupid, so some people chose the extreme.
Given that a human life starts with a cell and ends with a baby and a cell is no better to me that any of the 720mio bacteria in my mouth, I kind of agree that in the time between these two states there has to be a point up until which I can relatively safe end that "becoming human" without any moral quarrels.
Not that I claim to know that point, but it should be societies goal to strike balance there between the right to choose and the obligation to protect human life. Chosing one extreme is nearly never the way.
We are all animals. Gerbils eat their young alive if they don't want them. Abortions are a-ok in my book
If a company doesn't hire blacks....they have no blacks.
If a company doesn't hire women with children, well they still have women and those women will eventually have children. So even if they practice discrimination in their hiring practices, their employment records will not show it unless they have a massive statistical anomaly and none of their women ever choose to have children.
The difficulty in verifying discrimination in these cases is so absurdly different that the apples to orange saying doesn't even cut it.
Last edited by Lithose; 12-20-2012 at 04:45 PM.
Of course discrimination happens, the point is that its illegal, that people doing it are setting themselves up for lawsuits, and that a woman not having a kid for fear of discrimination should be something society is generally opposed to. When I read "A woman with a kid can't get hired" as if its, not okay, but just a thing we have to accept is going to happen, I view it similarly to someone saying "A black person can't get hired" in the same type of context. It may happen, but its not acceptable and people shouldn't live their lives in fear that someone may discriminate against them one day because they made a decision that person didn't agree with, or have a color skin that hiring person doesn't like, what have you.
Anyway, since I've accidentally shit up the thread with this derail I'm going to give my views on abortion:
I'm pro choice, but I hope women who have abortions will
1. Educate themselves completely on the decision before hand
2. Think very hard about the consequences of both decisions (to have or to abort) before making the final decision, because either one will have dramatic impact on her life, and her psychology, for years to come.
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