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Thread: A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

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    Registered User Dr.Retarded's Avatar
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    A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

    You know what to do...

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    Registered User Fedor's Avatar
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    Registered User Firewalker's Avatar
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    Belwas 'bout to take a giant shit up in herr.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Maneater Eater Wuyley's Avatar
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    What exactly do you mean by Released Spoilers? Can we comment about interviews etc., or just what is in the actual books?

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    Registered User Dr.Retarded's Avatar
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    Shit I don't know, it was just the original title of the thread on FOH.

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    Maneater Eater Wuyley's Avatar
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    So that fact that GRRM basically said in an interview that Jon Snow isn't dead after he was stabbed on the wall is fair game?

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    Creative Title Blazin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuyley View Post
    So that fact that GRRM basically said in an interview that Jon Snow isn't dead after he was stabbed on the wall is fair game?
    Plagerism needed please

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    Maneater Eater Wuyley's Avatar
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    Mother fucker your going to make me find the link and post it on here? Your lucky you helped me on my portfolio. Be back soon with link


    Edit:
    http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/...cking-twist-g/

    Article Text
    Spoiler: 


    ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
    GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

    Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!
    Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

    The narrative made perfect sense. Looking back through the books, all the decisions Jon’s made, and all the foreshadowing that was there, yes, you played fair. At the same time, it was devastating and I suspect fans will howl, the most since–
    The most since the Red Wedding, I suspect.

    How long have you intended for that incident to happen?
    For many years. Some of the stuff about Melisandre warning Jon of “daggers in the dark” was written 10 years ago.

    It’s a harsh chapter in terms of fan expectations. You go from this total high of Jon giving this rousing speech about going after the evil Ramsay Bolton, to this utter low of his men turning against him. So fans are not supposed to draw that conclusion he’s dead?
    What I’m seeing from early reactions, admittedly just a handful, I think fans are going to split and argue about it until the next book comes out.

    I also wasn’t sure whether Ramsay was telling the truth in his letter when he said the battle had already been fought and won, whether we were supposed to take that as gospel.
    My readers should know better than to take anything as gospel, unless they see it for themselves, and even then I do sometimes use “unreliable narrator.” No. They should not take that as the truth. What about Mance Rayder, did you think he was really dead?

    Yes. And I liked the reveal that he’s the bard in Ramsay’s court at Winterfell, but I was so dense I didn’t realize it was him until I read Ramsay’s letter near the end.
    Aside from the fact Mance goes south and says he’s going to take six spearwives, there’s a legend that Jon hears from Ygritte about Bale the Bard who was a King of the North who posed as a bard and infiltrated Winterfell. Mance is calling himself “Abel” which is “Bael” with the letters moved around. It’s amazing what people pick up on and what they don’t. The whole controversy over Renly and Loras, [viewers saying] “HBO made these characters gay!”

    It was always firmly hinted
    And many got that, but many didn’t. I’m still getting letters about it. They were oblivious when they read the books and [producers] made it explicit.

    The one thing I must confess to being frustrated by is the first Tyion chapter where you set up this expectation that he’s going to meet Dany, and I got excited. Then about 600 pages later I’m realizing, “OK, that’s not gonna happen, at least not in this book.”
    Yeah, it’s the “kind of bring ‘em together but don’t give them the confirmation.” In some ways it’s not so different than the sexual tension in TV shows — are Catherine and Vincent [on Beauty and the Beast] finally going to kiss? Same philosophy. This is the kind of stuff I wrestle with. I could have ended the next chapter: Tyrion gets off the boat and there’s Dany. But the journey itself has its own interest.

    One of my favorite chapters, perhaps of the whole series, was Cersei’s walk of shame. I was riveted.
    That was an interesting chapter to write, and based on actual medieval events. Jane Shore, mistress of King Edward IV, was punished that way after Edward died. It’s going to be a controversial scene when it comes out — is it misogynistic or feminist? It wasn’t a punishment ever inflicted on men. It was a punishment directed at women to break their pride. And Cersei is defined by her pride.
    Last edited by Wuyley; 12-08-2012 at 12:49 AM.

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    Registered User Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Released spoilers was basically if it's published somewhere then talk about it (sample chapters, interviews, books) but if it's from some reading GRRM did of a chapter that might change while he's still working on it, then don't bring it up.

    Anyway...new Dunk and Egg novella out next year supposedly.

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    Totally Ninja Sterling's Avatar
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    Hate waiting on the main books but the Dunk and Egg stuff is awesome so that gets a pass.

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    Survived 9/23/2015 Soygen's Avatar
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    How many Dunk & Egg stories are there, and more importantly, what books are they contained in? Looking up "dunk and egg" on Amazon comes back with a bunch of different Anthologies. Can someone give me the quick and dirty on getting all these stories?

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    ヽ(o`皿′o)ノ NO! Grimmlokk's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_Dunk_and_Egg

    Not sure the best place to actually get them, aside from just being a filthy pirate about it.

    The first graphic novel version was pretty good. Haven't checked out the second yet.

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    Survived 9/23/2015 Soygen's Avatar
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    I actually(like a retard) ordered the graphic novel by accident on Amazon a few years ago. I thought I was ordering the book and when it arrived, I felt like an idiot. Still enjoyed reading it, but there you. I'll read that wiki and weigh the option of being a filthy pirate. Thanks!

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    Totally Ninja Sterling's Avatar
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    Those 3 anthologies are what you're looking for. Legends, Legends 2, and Warriors I think. You can get those all on the cheap and some of the other stuff in them is good as well.

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    Filthy pirate I think is the best way to get a combined copy for an e-reader though, there's a decent html file going around that I have.

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    I finally read the first Dunk and Egg story, it was really badass. I am genuinely upset that there are only three of these stories now.

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    Registered User Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Apparently the forth one is going to be called "She-Wolves" and takes place in Winterfell.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuyley View Post
    What exactly do you mean by Released Spoilers? Can we comment about interviews etc., or just what is in the actual books?
    I would say anything that GRRM isn't pissed about being released. I have no idea if there's any leaks out there but that stuff would be poison to my eyes.

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    How's your arm, John? Teddite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlokk View Post
    The first graphic novel version was pretty good. Haven't checked out the second yet.
    I tried reading the graphic novel. I thought it was going fine until they had Tyrion leap and flip off a roof during his first meeting with Jon Snow like a damn ninja. I know they need to spice things up for a visual retelling, but I had a hard time picking the books back up after that.

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    Registered User Ko Dokomo's Avatar
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    http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comme..._rasoiaf_2012/
    Best of the SoIaF Reddit for 2012.

    I had no idea that Benjen Stark was Daario.
    E-Sim: A World Sim Browser MMOG - Join the forum's team and help us stay one of the most respected countries in the game. Info

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    Totally Ninja Sterling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddite View Post
    I tried reading the graphic novel. I thought it was going fine until they had Tyrion leap and flip off a roof during his first meeting with Jon Snow like a damn ninja. I know they need to spice things up for a visual retelling, but I had a hard time picking the books back up after that.
    He actually did that in the actual novel as well.

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    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ko Dokomo View Post
    http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comme..._rasoiaf_2012/
    Best of the SoIaF Reddit for 2012.

    I had no idea that Benjen Stark was Daario.
    Thats some really in depth analysis. Not sure I agree with most of it, but it is well thought out.

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    How's your arm, John? Teddite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sterling View Post
    He actually did that in the actual novel as well.
    Well shit. I guess it's time to re-read. It was ages ago when I read Game of Thrones, and it just seemed so out of character for Tyrion to flip like a ninja when I remember him complaining about being in pain so often. Back to the beginning, I suppose.

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    Glip Glop Ao-'s Avatar
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    Wasn't there some shit about him tumbling as a fool (and he enjoyed it but his father HATED it)?

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    Registered User Lemmiwinks's Avatar
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    Yea its stated a few times on AGoT about Tyrions tumbling skill. He even does it on the boat in ADWD, when the stonemen attack IIRC

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    How's your arm, John? Teddite's Avatar
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    Ah yes, I recall those bits now. I suppose my memory of the books may be skewed a bit by the show, and a re-read should be in order.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Yeah in the book Tyrion is a bit of an athletic super hero. Not only is an excellent tumbler but every combat scene shows him destroying people. I'm kind of glad they didn't try to make Peter Dinklage obliterate fools like it was an episode of Xena: Warrior Princess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ko Dokomo View Post
    I had no idea that Benjen Stark was Daario.
    Yea, and Sam is Azor Ahai. I read it on the internet.

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    Survived 9/23/2015 Soygen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ko Dokomo View Post
    I had no idea that Benjen Stark was Daario.
    Neither did George Martin.

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    Poor Communication Skills bixxby's Avatar
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    So who is Jon going to warg into after he wargs into ghost for a while?

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    Registered User Szeth's Avatar
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    Coldhands could also be the precedent needed to keep Jon sentient and a main focus in the story. Coldhands-ify him and send him into the north. He will be The Last Hero of this generation.

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    is Coldhands Benjen Stark?
    am i the only person who when they think about slavers bay and all the strange characters there imagines them as the baddies from raiders of the lost ark and temple of doom?

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    Registered User Lemmiwinks's Avatar
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    I think Coldhands is Benjen. Id like to know exactly what made him the way he was though, why he's a "good wight" and not just a zombie. Blood of the Starks maybe?

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    Glip Glop Ao-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks View Post
    I think Coldhands is Benjen. Id like to know exactly what made him the way he was though, why he's a "good wight" and not just a zombie. Blood of the Starks maybe?
    Thought coldhands was older than benjen was missing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks View Post
    I think Coldhands is Benjen. Id like to know exactly what made him the way he was though, why he's a "good wight" and not just a zombie. Blood of the Starks maybe?
    Bloodraven did some magic that transferred Benjen's consciousness to somewhere else before he died, then moved it back? Or maybe Bloodraven warged into Coldhands/Benjen after he was ressurrected as a wight?

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    Registered User Lemmiwinks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ao- View Post
    Thought coldhands was older than benjen was missing...
    Yea Leaf, the child of the forest does say he was killed "Long ago" which seems to imply longer than the time passed between then and GoT. Who knows?

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    How's your arm, John? Teddite's Avatar
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    I assumed it was Benjen until the Children of the Forest spoke with Bran about Coldhands as well. It's likely a character that has been mentioned previously, but I was in too much of a rush through a first read-through to piece it all together.

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    Registered User Lemmiwinks's Avatar
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    I posted this in a different thread, but I think an anime of ASOIAF would probably be off the hook. Unlike the live action show, it would be much easier to do scenes like the many flashbacks/backstory history, exposition, and stuff like the House of the Undying. Ive been reading this series for years and I still cant get enough of it.

    I must needs read the next edition with mine own eyes, the Others take you right to the seven hells Martin.

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    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks View Post
    I posted this in a different thread, but I think an anime of ASOIAF would probably be off the hook. Unlike the live action show, it would be much easier to do scenes like the many flashbacks/backstory history, exposition, and stuff like the House of the Undying. Ive been reading this series for years and I still cant get enough of it.

    I must needs read the next edition with mine own eyes, the Others take you right to the seven hells Martin.
    This is going to be fucking old ass thread on Rerolled v. 4 by the time the next book comes out.

    Painful to think about.

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    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks View Post
    I posted this in a different thread, but I think an anime of ASOIAF would probably be off the hook. Unlike the live action show, it would be much easier to do scenes like the many flashbacks/backstory history, exposition, and stuff like the House of the Undying. Ive been reading this series for years and I still cant get enough of it.

    I must needs read the next edition with mine own eyes, the Others take you right to the seven hells Martin.
    Do it like Batman Gotham Knight or the Animatrix and you've got yourself a deal.

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    ヽ(o`皿′o)ノ NO! Grimmlokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef Supreme View Post
    Do it like Batman Gotham Knight or the Animatrix and you've got yourself a deal.
    I thought it was a stupid GD idea and now I've totally flipped. I want it like Animatrix right now. Multiple styles tell stories from Westeros? Animated Targaryan invasion on the dragons? Animated Tower of Joy and the battle at the Trident? Duncan the Tall's melee? Holy shitting dicknipples.

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    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlokk View Post
    Animated Tower of Joy battle
    If such a thing be released, and if it be worthy, my time here would be complete. I could go home.

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    Registered User Lemmiwinks's Avatar
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    GRRM has released another TWoW chapter. Time to jizz on your keyboards.

    156853_300.jpg

    Spoiler: 
    On the morning that she left the Water Gardens, her father rose from his chair to kiss her on both cheeks. "The fate of Dorne goes with you, daughter," he said, as he pressed the parchment into her hand. "Go swiftly, go safely, be my eyes and ears and voice... but most of all, take care."
    "I will, Father." She did not shed a tear. Arianne Martell was a princess of Dorne, and Dornishmen did not waste water lightly. It was a near thing, though. It was not her father's kisses nor his hoarse words that made her eyes glisten, but the effort that brought him to his feet, his legs trembling under him, his joints swollen and inflamed with gout. Standing was an act of love. Standing was an act of faith.
    He believes in me. I will not fail him.
    Seven of them set out together on seven Dornish sand steeds. A small party travels more swiftly than a large one, but the heir to Dorne does not ride alone. From Godsgrace came Ser Daemon Sand, the bastard; once Prince Oberyn's squire, now Arianne's sworn shield. From Sunspear two bold young knights, Joss Hood and Garibald Shells, to lend their swords to his. From the Water Gardens seven ravens and a tall young lad to tend them. His name was Nate, but he had been working with the birds so long that no one called him anything but Feathers. And since a princess must have some women to attend her, her company also included pretty Jayne Ladybright and wild Elia Sand, a maid of ten-and-four.

    They struck out north by northwest, across drylands and parched plains and pale sands towards Ghost Hill, the stronghold of House Toland, where the ship that would take them across the Sea of Dorne awaited them. "Send a raven whenever you have news," Prince Doran told her, "but report only what you know to be true. We are lost in fog here, besieged by rumors, falsehoods, and traveler's tales. I dare not act until I know for a certainty what is happening."
    War is happening, though Arianne, and this time Dorne will not be spared. "Doom and death are coming," Ellaria Sand had warned them, before she took her own leave from Prince Doran. "It is time for my little snakes to scatter, the better to survive the carnage." Ellaria was returning to her father's seat at Hellholt. With her went her daughter Loreza, who had just turned seven. Dorea remained at the Water Gardens, one child amongst a hundred. Obella was to be dispatched to Sunspear, to serve as a cupbearer to the wife of the castellan, Manfrey Martell.
    And Elia Sand, oldest of the four girls that Prince Oberyn had fathered on Ellaria, would cross the Sea of Dorne with Arianne. "As a lady, not a lance," her mother said firmly, but like all the Sand Snakes, Elia had her own mind.
    They crossed the sands in two long days and the better part of two nights, stopping thrice to change their horses. It was a lonely time for Arianne, surrounded by so many strangers. Elia was her cousin, but half a child, and Daemon Sand... things had never been the same between her and the Bastard of Godsgrace after her father refused his offer for her hand. He was a boy then, and bastard born, no fit consort for a princess of Dorne, he should have known better. And it was my father's will, not mine. The rest of her companions she hardly knew at all.
    Arianne missed her friends. Drey and Garin and her sweet Spotted Slyva had been a part of her since she was little, trusted confidants who had shared her dreams and secrets, cheered her when she was sad, helped her face her fears. One of them had betrayed her, but she missed them all the same. It was my own fault. Arianne had made them part of her plot to steal off with Myrcella Baratheon and crown her queen, an act of rebellion meant to force her father's hand, but someone's loose tongue had undone her. The clumsy conspiracy had accomplished nothing, except to cost poor Myrcella part of her face, and Ser Arys Oakheart his life.
    Arianne missed Ser Arys too, more than she ever would have thought. He loved me madly, she told herself, yet I was never more than fond of him. I made use of him in my bed and in my plot, took his love and took his honor, gave him nothing but my body. In the end he could not live with what we'd done. Why else would her white knight have charged right into Areo Hotah's longaxe, to die the way he did? I was a foolish willful girl, playing at the game of thrones like a drunkard rolling dice.
    The cost of her folly had been dear. Drey had been sent across the world to Norvos, Garin exiled to Tyrosh for two years, her sweet silly smiling Slyva married off to Eldon Estermont, a man old enough to be her grandsire. Ser Arys had paid with his life's blood, Myrcella with an ear.
    Only Ser Gerold Dayne had escaped unscathed. Darkstar. If Myrcella's horse had not shied at the last instant, his longsword would have opened her from chest to waist instead just taking off her ear. Dayne was her most grievous sin, the one that Arianne most regretted. With one stroke of his sword, he had changed her botched plot into something foul and bloody. If the gods were good, by now Obara Sand had treed him in his mountain fastness and put an end to him.
    She said as much to Daemon Sand that first night, as they made camp. "Be careful what you pray for, princess," he replied. "Darkstar could put an end to Lady Obara just as easily."
    "She has Areo Hotah with her." Prince Doran's captain of guards had dispatched Ser Arys Oakheart with a single blow, though the Kingsguard were supposed to be the finest knights in all the realm. "No man can stand against Hotah."
    "Is that what Darkstar is? A man?" Ser Daemon grimaced. "A man would not have done what he did to Princess Myrcella. Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It's just a pity that he never got around to killing him."
    Poison, thought Arianne. Yes. Pretty poison, though. That was how he'd fooled her. Gerold Dayne was hard and cruel, but so fair to look upon that the princess had not believed half the tales she'd heard of him. Pretty boys had ever been her weakness, particularly the ones who were dark and dangerous as well. That was before, when I was just a girl, she told herself. I am a woman now, my father's daughter. I have learned that lesson.
    Come break of day, they were off again. Elia Sand led the way, her black braid flying behind her as she raced across the dry, cracked plains and up into the hills. The girl was mad for horses, which might be why she often smelled like one, to the despair of her mother. Sometimes Arianne felt sorry for Ellaria. Four girls, and every one of them her father's daughter.
    The rest of the party kept a more sedate pace. The princess found herself riding beside Ser Daemon, remembering other rides when they were younger, rides that often ended in embraces. When she found herself stealing glances at him, tall and gallant in the saddle, Arianne reminded herself that she was heir to Dorne, and him no more than her shield. "Tell me what you know of this Jon Connington," she commanded.
    "He's dead," said Daemon Sand. "He died in the Disputed Lands. Of drink, I've heard it said."
    "So a dead drunk leads this army?"
    "Perhaps this Jon Connington is a son of that one. Or just some clever sellsword who has taken on a dead man's name."
    "Or he never died at all." Could Connington have been pretending to be dead for all these years? That would require patience worthy of her father. The thought made Arianne uneasy. Treating with a man that subtle could be perilous. "What was he like before he... before he died?"
    "I was a boy at Godsgrace when he was sent into exile. I never knew the man."
    "Then tell me what you've heard of him from others."
    "As my princess commands. Connington was Lord of Griffin's Roost when Griffin's Roost was still a lordship worth the having. Prince Rhaegar's squire, or one of them. Later Prince Rhaegar's friend and companion. The Mad King named him Hand during Robert's Rebellion, but he was defeated at Stoney Sept in the Battle of the Bells, and Robert slipped away. King Aerys was wroth, and sent Connington into exile. There he died."
    "Or not." Prince Doran had told her all of that. There must be more. "Those are just the things he did. I know all that. What sort of man was he? Honest and honorable, venal and grasping, proud?"
    "Proud, for a certainty. Even arrogant. A faithful friend to Rhaegar, but prickly with others. Robert was his liege, but I've heard it said that Connington chafed at serving such a lord. Even then, Robert was known to be fond of wine and whores."
    "No whores for Lord Jon, then?"
    "I could not say. Some men keep their whoring secret."
    "Did he have a wife? A paramour?"
    Ser Daemon shrugged. "Not that I have ever heard."
    That was troubling too. Ser Arys Oakheart had broken his vows for her, but it did not sound as if Jon Connington could be similarly swayed. Can I match such a man with words alone?
    The princess lapsed into silence, all the while pondering what she would find at journey's end. That night when they made camp, she crept into the tent she shared with Jayne Ladybright and Elia Sand and slipped the bit of parchment out of her sleeve to read the words again.

    To Prince Doran of House Martell,
    You will remember me, I pray. I knew your sister well,
    and was a leal servant of your good-brother. I grieve
    for them as you do. I did not die, no more than did
    your sister's son. To save his life we kept him hidden,
    but the time for hiding is done. A dragon has returned
    to Westeros to claim his birthright and seek vengeance
    for his father, and for the princess Elia, his mother.
    In her name I turn to Dorne. Do not forsake us.
    Jon Connington
    Lord of Griffin's Roost
    Hand of the True King

    Arianne read the letter thrice, then rolled it up and tucked it back into her sleeve. A dragon has returned to Westeros, but not the dragon my father was expecting. Nowhere in the words was there a mention of Daenerys Stormborn... nor of Prince Quentyn, her brother, who had been sent to seek the dragon queen. The princess remembered how her father had pressed the onyx cyvasse piece into her palm, his voice hoarse and low as he confessed his plan. A long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end, he had said. He has gone to bring us back our heart's desire. Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood.
    Fire and blood was what Jon Connington (if indeed it was him) was offering as well. Or was it? "He comes with sellswords, but no dragons," Prince Doran had told her, the night the raven came. "The Golden Company is the best and largest of the free companies, but ten thousand mercenaries cannot hope to win the Seven Kingdoms. Elia's son... I would weep for joy if some part of my sister had survived, but what proof do we have that this is Aegon?" His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?"
    In the Boneway and the Prince's Pass, two Dornish hosts had massed, and there they sat, sharpening their spears, polishing their armor, dicing, drinking, quarreling, their numbers dwindling by the day, waiting, waiting, waiting for the Prince of Dorne to loose them on the enemies of House Martell. Waiting for the dragons. For fire and blood. For me. One word from Arianne and those armies would march... so long as that word was dragon. If instead the word she sent was war, Lord Yronwood and Lord Fowler and their armies would remain in place. The Prince of Dorne was nothing if not subtle; here war meant wait.
    At mid-morning on the third day Ghost Hill loomed up before them, its chalk-white walls shining against the deep blue of the Sea of Dorne. From the square towers at the castle's corners flew the banners of House Toland; a green dragon biting its own tail, upon a golden field. The sun-and-spear of House Martell streamed atop the great central keep, gold and red and orange, defiant.
    Ravens had flown ahead to warn Lady Toland of their coming, so the castle gates were open, and Nymella's eldest daughter rode forth with her steward to meet them near the bottom of the hill. Tall and fierce, with a blaze of bright red hair tumbling about her shoulders, Valena Toland greeted Arianne with a shout of, "Come at last, have you? How slow are those horses?"
    "Swift enough to outrun yours to the castle gates."
    "We will see about that." Valena wheeled her big red around and put her heels into him, and the race was on, through the dusty lanes of the village at the bottom of the hill, as chickens and villagers alike scrambled out of their path. Arianne was three horse lengths behind by the time she got her mare up to a gallop, but had closed to one halfway up the slope. The two of them were side-by-side as they thundered towards the gatehouse, but five yards from the gates Elia Sand came flying from the cloud of dust behind them to rush past both of them on her black filly.
    "Are you half horse, child?" Valena asked, laughing, in the yard. "Princess, did you bring a stable girl?"
    "I'm Elia," the girl announced. "Lady Lance."
    Whoever hung that name on her has much to answer for. Like as not it had been Prince Oberyn, though, and the Red Viper had never answered to anyone but himself.
    "The girl jouster," Valena said. "Yes, I've heard of you. Since you were the first to the yard, you've won the honor of watering and bridling the horses."
    "And after that find the bath house," said Princess Arianne. Elia was chalk and dust from heels to hair.
    That night Arianne and her knights supped with Lady Nymella and her daughters in the great hall of the castle. Teora, the younger girl, had the same red hair as her sister, but elsewise could not have been more different. Short, plump, and so shy she might have passed for a mute, she displayed more interest in the spiced beef and honeyed duck than in the comely young knights at the table, and seemed content to let her lady mother and her sister speak for House Toland.
    "We have heard the same tales here that you have heard at Sunspear," Lady Nymella told them as her serving man poured the wine. "Sellswords landing on Cape Wrath, castles under siege or being taken, crops seized or burned. Where these men come from and who they are, no one is certain."
    "Pirates and adventurers, we heard at first," said Valena. "Then it was supposed to be the Golden Company. Now it's said to be Jon Connington, the Mad King's Hand, come back from the grave to reclaim his birthright. Whoever it is, Griffin's Roost has fallen to them. Rain House, Crow's Nest, Mistwood, even Greenstone on its island. All taken."
    Arianne's thoughts went at once to her sweet Spotted Slyva. "Who would want Greenstone? Was there a battle?"
    "Not as we have heard, but all the tales are garbled."
    "Tarth has fallen too, some fisherfolk will tell you," said Valena. "These sellswords now hold most of Cape Wrath and half the Stepstones. We hear talk of elephants in the rainwood."
    "Elephants?" Arianne did not know what to think of that. "Are you certain? Not dragons?"
    "Elephants," Lady Nymella said firmly.
    "And krakens off the Broken Arm, pulling under crippled galleys," said Valena. "The blood draws them to the surface, our maester claims. There are bodies in the water. A few have washed up on our shores. And that's not half of it. A new pirate king has set up on Torturer's Deep. The Lord of the Waters, he styles himself. This one has real warships, three-deckers, monstrous large. You were wise not to come by sea. Since the Redwyne fleet passed through the Stepstones, those waters are crawling with strange sails, all the way north to the Straights of Tarth and Shipbreaker's Bay. Myrmen, Volantenes, Lyseni, even reavers from the Iron Islands. Some have entered the Sea of Dorne to land men on the south shore of Cape Wrath. We found a good fast ship for you, as your father commanded, but even so... be careful."
    It is true, then. Arianne wanted to ask after her brother, but her father had urged her to watch every word. If these ships had not brought Quentyn home again with his dragon queen, best not to mention him. Only her father and a few of his most trusted men knew about her brother's mission to Slaver's Bay. Lady Toland and her daughters were not amongst them. If it were Quentyn, he would have brought Daenerys back to Dorne, surely. Why would he risk a landing on Cape Wrath, amongst the stormlords?
    "Is Dorne at risk?" Lady Nymella asked. "I confess, each time I see a strange sail my heart leaps to my throat. What if these ships turn south? The best part of the Toland strength is with Lord Yronwood in the Boneway. Who will defend Ghost Hill if these strangers land upon our shores? Should I call my men home?"
    "Your men are needed where they are, my lady," Daemon Sand assured her. Arianne was quick to nod. Any other counsel could well lead to Lord Yronwood's host unravelling like an old tapestry as each man rushed home to defend his own lands against supposed enemies who might or might not ever come. "Once we know beyond a doubt whether these be friends or foes, my father will know what to do," the princess said.
    It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."
    "Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."
    "I'm not. They're coming."
    "How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"
    Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."
    "Seven save us." Lady Nymella gave an exasperated sigh.
    "If you did not eat so many creamcakes you would not have such dreams. Rich foods are not for girls your age, when your humors are so unbalanced. Maester Toman says -- "
    "I hate Maester Toman," Teora said. Then she bolted from the table, leaving her lady mother to make apologies for her.
    "Be gentle with her, my lady," Arianne said. "I remember when I was her age. My father despaired of me, I'm sure."
    "I can attest to that." Ser Daemon took a sip of wine and said, "House Toland has a dragon on its banners."
    "A dragon eating its own tail, aye," Valena said. "From the days of Aegon's Conquest. He did not conquer here. Elsewhere he burned his foes, him and his sisters, but here we melted away before them, leaving only stone and sand for them to burn. And round and round the dragons went, snapping at their tails for want of any other food, till they were tied in knots."
    "Our forebears played their part in that," Lady Nymella said proudly. "Bold deeds were done, and brave men died. All of it was written down by the maesters who served us. We have books, if my princess would like to know more."
    "Some other time, perhaps," said Arianne.
    As Ghost Hill slept that night, the princess donned a hooded cloak against the chill and and walked the castle battlements to clear her thoughts. Daemon Sand found her leaning on a parapet and gazing out to sea, where the moon was dancing on the water. "Princess," he said. "You ought to be abed."
    "I could say the same of you." Arianne turned to gaze upon his face. A good face, she decided. The boy I knew has become a handsome man. His eyes were as blue as a desert sky, his hair the light brown of the sands they had just crossed. A close-cropped beard followed the thin of a strong jaw, but could not quite hide the dimples when he smiled. I always loved his smile.
    The Bastard of Godsgrace was one of Dorne's finest swords as well, as might be expected from one who had been Prince Oberyn's squire and had received his knighthood from the Red Viper himself. Some said that he had been her uncle's lover too, though seldom to his face. Arianne did not know the truth of that. He had been her lover, though. At fourteen she had given him her maidenhead. Daemon had not been much older, so their couplings had been as clumsy as they were ardent. Still, it had been sweet.
    Arianne gave him her most seductive smile. "We might share a bed together."
    Ser Daemon's face was stone. "Have you forgotten, princess? I am bastard born." He took her hand in his. "If I am unworthy of this hand, how can I be worthy of your cunt?"
    She snatched her hand away. "You deserve a slap for that."
    "My face is yours. Do what you will."
    "What I will you will not, it seems. So be it. Talk with me instead. Could this truly be Prince Aegon?"
    "Gregor Clegane ripped Aegon out of Elia's arms and smashed his head against a wall," Ser Daemon said. "If Lord Connington's prince has a crushed skull, I will believe that Aegon Targaryen has returned from the grave. Elsewise, no. This is some feigned boy, no more. A sellsword's ploy to win support."
    My father fears the same. "If not, though... if this truly is Jon Connington, if the boy is Rhaegar's son... "
    "Are you hoping that he is, or that he's not?"
    "I... it would give great joy to my father if Elia's son were still alive. He loved his sister well."
    "It was you I asked about, not your father."
    So it was. "I was seven when Elia died. They say I held her daughter Rhaenys once, when I was too young to remember. Aegon will be a stranger to me, whether true or false." The princess paused. "We looked for Rhaegar's sister, not his son." Her father had confided in Ser Daemon when he chose him as his daughter's shield; with him at least she could speak freely. "I would sooner it were Quentyn who'd returned."
    "Or so you say," said Daemon Sand. "Good night, princess." He bowed to her, and left her standing there.
    What did he mean by that? Arianne watched him walk away. What sort of sister would I be, if I did not want my brother back? It was true, she had resented Quentyn for all those years that she had thought their father meant to name him as his heir in place of her, but that had turned out to be just a misunderstanding. She was the heir to Dorne, she had her father's word on that. Quentyn would have his dragon queen, Daenerys.
    In Sunspear hung a portrait of the Princess Daenerys who had come to Dorne to marry one of Arianne's forebears. In her younger days Arianne had spent hours gazing at it, back when she was just a pudgy flat-chested girl on the cusp of maidenhood who prayed every night for the gods to make her pretty. A hundred years ago, Daenerys Targaryen came to Dorne to make a peace. Now another comes to make a war, and my brother will be her king and consort. King Quentyn. Why did that sound so silly?
    Almost as silly as Quentyn riding on a dragon. Her brother was an earnest boy, well-behaved and dutiful, but dull. And plain, so plain. The gods had given Arianne the beauty she had prayed for, but Quentyn must have prayed for something else. His head was overlarge and sort of square, his hair the color of dried mud. His shoulders slumped as well, and he was too thick about the middle. He looks too much like Father.
    "I love my brother," said Arianne, though only the moon could hear her. Though if truth be told, she scarcely knew him. Quentyn had been fostered by Lord Anders of House Yronwood, the Bloodroyal, the son of Lord Ormond Yronwood and grandson of Lord Edgar. In his youth her uncle Oberyn had fought a duel with Edgar, had given him a wound that mortified and killed him. Afterward men called him 'the Red Viper,' and spoke of poison on his blade. The Yronwoods were an ancient house, proud and powerful. Before the coming of the Rhoynar they had been kings over half of Dorne, with domains that dwarfed those of House Martell. Blood feud and rebellion would surely have followed Lord Edgar's death, had not her father acted at once. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. And in due time, Quentyn was given to Lord Anders to foster as a sign of trust. That helped to heal the breach between Sunspear and the Yronwoods, but it had opened new ones between Quentyn and the Sand Snakes... and Arianne had always been closer to her cousins than to her distant brother.
    "We are still the same blood, though," she whispered. "Of course I want my brother home. I do." The wind off the sea was raising gooseprickles all up and down her arms. Arianne pulled her cloak about herself, and went off to seek her bed.
    Their ship was called the Peregrine. They sailed upon the morning tide. The gods were good to them, the sea calm. Even with good winds, the crossing took a day and a night. Jayne Ladybright grew greensick and spent most of the voyage spewing, which Elia Sand seemed to find hilarious. "Someone needs to spank that child," Joss Hood was heard to say... but Elia was amongst those who heard him say it.
    "I am almost a woman grown, ser," she responded haughtily. "I'll let you spank me, though... but first you'll need to tilt with me, and knock me off my horse."
    "We are on a ship, and without horses," Joss replied.
    "And ladies do not joust," insisted Ser Garibald Shells, a far more serious and proper young man than his companion.
    "I do. I'm Lady Lance."
    Arianne had heard enough. "You may be a lance, but you are no lady. Go below and stay there till we reach land."
    Elsewise the crossing was uneventful. At dusk they spied a galley in the distance, her oars rising and falling against the evening stars, but she was moving away from them, and soon dwindled and was gone. Arianne played a game of cyvasse with Ser Daemon, and another one with Garibald Shells, and somehow managed to lose both. Ser Garibald was kind enough to say that she played a gallant game, but Daemon mocked her. "You have other pieces beside the dragon, princess. Try moving them sometime."
    "I like the dragon." She wanted to slap the smile off his face. Or kiss it off, perhaps. The man was as smug as he was comely. Of all the knights in Dorne, why did my father chose this one to be my shield? He knows our history. "It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."
    "The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.
    "Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"
    "I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."
    The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen's own husband."
    "So I've heard. What of it?"
    "Just... why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."
    "The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."
    Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King's daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know -- "
    "We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."


    GRRMs website link:
    http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
    Last edited by Lemmiwinks; 01-09-2013 at 02:03 AM.

  44. #44
    Totally Ninja Sterling's Avatar
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    Fuck, I wish I hadn't read that. Is just going to make me more impatient for the next damn book.

  45. #45
    Cock Scientist Chris's Avatar
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    Sounds like they are setting up for Daenarys and Aegon to go to war?

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    A second dance with dragons is definitely coming. Most likely Dany arrives when Aegon has already secured KL and is king before someone lights a match (Tyrion or LF probably) and kicks things off.

    Spoiler: 
    I hope Vic runs into Aurane Waters on the way to Westeros and I'm excited to see how Hotah and Darkstar turns out, GRRM is really pumping up Darkstar. More Krakens too.

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    Spoiler: 
    I expected Balon Swann to be with the group hunting darkstar, maybe he is still at the water gardens trying to figure out which naked blonde girl is which

  48. #48
    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Why are you guys hiding conjecture/spoilers in a spoiler thread?

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    Well how released is released? Published in the books is different to sample chapters from an unreleased book thrown up on a website, people might not want to read that stuff and as I'm not sure on the rule I thought better safe than sorry.

  50. #50
    so privileged Drinsic's Avatar
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    It's not like a major spoiler is going to get released in a sample chapter. If someone wants to bitch about that, they can go get fucked.

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    Reading that Reddit post, no wonder GRRM takes so long to write the books, there are hundreds of loose ends to get in order. I just hope they all don't end up in a church in the final chapter and have been dead the whole time.

  52. #52
    Poor Communication Skills bixxby's Avatar
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    But don't you see, Pablo, they could only fulfill their destinies together!

  53. #53
    ヽ(o`皿′o)ノ NO! Grimmlokk's Avatar
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    I haven't read sample chapters since AFFC, but yeah released spoilers is anything released including readings and shit.

  54. #54
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    If you think it may be a spoiler, please take the second to just spoiler tag the damn thing and avoid drama. Everyone is going to read it anyway because LOL SELF CONTROL WAT but at least that way it will be their fault.

  55. #55
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    I finished the last Dunk and Egg story and now I am sad, bros. Those are really good, it is a fucking crime that there are only three of them.

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    New one should be within the year, possibly sooner than later. It may provide confirmation of Hodor being Dunk's descendant through Dunk+Old Nan.

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    Can't really even read these chapters, just gonna make me pine away more for the book itself which is a long ways off.

  58. #58
    Registered User Lemmiwinks's Avatar
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    I wonder since GRRM has released a few chapters from TWoW already, if he's going to do another new one for the paperback edition of ADwD or if he's going to use the Arriane one or something. Release date is May 28th.

  59. #59
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisd View Post
    New one should be within the year, possibly sooner than later. It may provide confirmation of Hodor being Dunk's descendant through Dunk+Old Nan.
    Wouldn't that make Old Nan like 120 years old?

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    Totally Ninja Sterling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Wouldn't that make Old Nan like 120 years old?
    Think that's sort of the whole idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sterling View Post
    Think that's sort of the whole idea.
    Wasn't it said Aemon was the oldest person in the land (or did they use "man")?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Wouldn't that make Old Nan like 120 years old?
    Not quite but easily over 100. Her age isn't that hard to reconcile given her ancient description in the book (among other things it's said she may be the oldest person in Westeros) is given much more weight than Aemon's (102). Also we don't know how soon after TMK that Shewolves will take place (the Hedge Knight was about 100 years ago, subsequent books are obviously later). Also even if it doesn't happen during Shewolves Dunk likely visits WF more than once (on the way to the wall with BR). I had thought this theory before ADWD and then with ADWD we got Bran's vision of the tall knight embracing the pretty young girl, so I'm fairly eager to see if it's true.

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    According to Bran, Old Nan is Hordor's great great grandmother. If she was pretty young when dunk is in the north, the time line should fit. My only issue with the theory is that most the characters that are really big have some theory making dunk their ancestor. The cleagnes, Brienne and Hodor. If they are all true, dunk really was a traveling swordsman!

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    http://grrm.livejournal.com/

    No Dunk and Egg. Bullshit. Don't know what this means.

    Oh well, more Dance history, and Sanderson and Abercrombie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisd View Post
    http://grrm.livejournal.com/

    No Dunk and Egg. Bullshit. Don't know what this means.

    Oh well, more Dance history, and Sanderson and Abercrombie.
    I'm pretty convinced at this point that he just does not enjoy writing about ASoIaF any longer. If he did he could have been churning out D&E short stories left and right as they are fairly simple tales regarding the history of a world and characters that he has already created. Likewise with Dance, that book felt more like something he was compelled to do rather than anything that he took any pride in creating.
    Last edited by Gask; 01-23-2013 at 04:08 AM.

  66. #66
    We Do Not Scissor. Chanur's Avatar
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    Not Dunk and Egg which is awesome short stories.

    It does include THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN, by George R.R. Martin which is about the Dance of Dragons. I find that interesting personally though would rather have Dunk and Egg.

  67. #67
    ヽ(o`皿′o)ノ NO! Grimmlokk's Avatar
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    Just a little detail on the novella.

    The novella, titled “The Princess and the Queen,” will reveal the origins of the Targaryen Civil War, otherwise known as “The Dance of the Dragons.” A war that split a then fledgling Westeros in two, pitting Targaryen against Targaryen and dragon against dragon.
    George R. R. Martin to Debut New Song of Ice and Fire Novella

  68. #68
    Here for the Gangbang Hekotat's Avatar
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    Currently re-reading the series again and was wondering if anyone else think's Taena was playing Cersei like a fiddle?

  69. #69
    ヽ(o`皿′o)ノ NO! Grimmlokk's Avatar
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    The chick she was lezzing out with? I mean, obviously.

  70. #70
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    To what end?

  71. #71
    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    To what end?

    Spying for Dorn. When Taena was there, Martell said he had an ear at the court...After she left, he said he no longer did. My guess, anyway. There weren't many clues. She's from Myr though, and she was egging Cersei into trouble all the time. She also avoided sending for her son, I'm thinking because he was at the pools in Dorn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekotat View Post
    Currently re-reading the series again and was wondering if anyone else think's Taena was playing Cersei like a fiddle?
    If someone is talking to Cersei, then you can just assume she is being played like a fiddle. The character has the absolute biggest combination of confidence and stupidity in all of literature.
    Last edited by Lithose; 02-01-2013 at 11:48 AM.

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    Makes the most sense she's Doran's, but it is suspicious the Faith let her go without interrogating her and Varys is the only one we have reason to think has pull with the faith. Also on the Varys side of things Cersei thinks Robert would have found Taena attractive which leads to the theory that she may be the mother of one of Robert's bastards and we know Varys saw that Robert's bastards were provided for.
    Last edited by Chrisd; 02-01-2013 at 12:22 PM.

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    I need to reread, maybe after a few months of the book club stuff. I feel like there are soooo many details that I have forgotten.

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    In the hopes of getting some discussion going I'll throw out a pet prediction of mine.

    Sandor will kill Lyn Corbray.

    Sandor's name means protector of man, but particularly he's been a protector of children, Joff, Sansa and Arya. Corbray is clearly a threat to children, he's conveniently located in Sansa's area who Sandor will no doubt reconnect with and he carries what I believe is destined to be Sandor's sword. Lady Forlorn, Sandor did all ready take the place of Sansa's Direwolf Lady and will be doing so again. It has a heart shaped ruby in its pommel which I think fits in with Sandor's re-emergences as a true knight and romantic interest for Sansa. There's a fair bit of foreshadowing portraying Sandor as the stranger, when he re-emerges from the Quiet Isle I think he will represent the warrior, and according to the song the warrior "protects the little children".

    How it may come about I have a theory for, albeit not one I'm particularly confident in. LF obviously intends to kill Robert, perhaps he'll pass the job off to Corbray. Sansa however, despite not particularly liking Robert I think may not be down for child murdering even if it is to her benefit, enter Sandor to save the day.

    I also think the valyrian weapons in the hands of minor characters (Harlaw, Tarly, the dothraki with the arakh) are going to wind up in the hands of some of the more major characters and be useful against the Others.

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    I was thinking she was spying for Margery, but you apparently have a better eye for detail than me. Cersei is so easy to manipulate it's not even funny I just never thought of Taena playing for the other side until this read through.


    That is quite an interesting theory Chrisd and I always had a hunch that Sandor and Sansa would end up togther.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisd View Post
    Corbray is clearly a threat to children, he's conveniently located in Sansa's area who Sandor will no doubt reconnect with and he carries what I believe is destined to be Sandor's sword.
    Corbray is clearly a threat to boys. The last Sansa chapter, Littlefinger states that Corbray can be controlled as long as he has opportunities for “gold, boys, and killing." I cannot think of an instance where its indicated Corbray is a threat to Robert as Littlefinger has already made it clear that Robert won't die by violence but because he is "sickly" (also from the last Sansa chapter).
    Last edited by mimirswell; 02-02-2013 at 05:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mimirswell View Post
    Corbray is clearly a threat to boys. The last Sansa chapter, Littlefinger states that Corbray can be controlled as long as he has opportunities for “gold, boys, and killing."
    I'm not really sure what you're saying here, boys are children.

    Quote Originally Posted by mimirswell View Post
    I cannot think of an instance where its indicated Corbray is a threat to Robert as Littlefinger has already made it clear that Robert won't die by violence but because he is "sickly" (also from the last Sansa chapter).
    I'm confident LF could have Robert die in a manner that just looks natural and get away with it, but the death would raise some suspicions especially given Harry and Sansa are to marry and everyone in the Vale all ready doesn't trust LF. I'm proposing he may find a cleaner way, if he were to hand Robert over to his sworn enemy in the Vale as a sign of good faith, and then if Robert were to die (of natural looking causes) LF comes out of it with clean hands. I propose Corbray would go along with it because Corbray is in LF's pockets and would be paid for his services accordingly, just business as usual.

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    It's pretty clear that Littlefinger is working on Robert Arryn dying "of natural causes" and having the poor child doped up such that it looks like his shakes are an illness that they're really not. There are hints about this, particularly the Maester's objections to the excessive doses of milk of the poppy. I'd have to go dig for the precise quotes, but it's suggested that Robert is dying of toxicity. He'll likely die after Littlefinger's wrapped up his plans for Sansa and the Vale. After all, he's betrothed her to Harry the Heir; guess who gets the Vale if the "sickly" child dies, as seemed to be commonly thought is likely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehrak View Post
    It's pretty clear that Littlefinger is working on Robert Arryn dying "of natural causes" and having the poor child doped up such that it looks like his shakes are an illness that they're really not. There are hints about this, particularly the Maester's objections to the excessive doses of milk of the poppy. I'd have to go dig for the precise quotes, but it's suggested that Robert is dying of toxicity. He'll likely die after Littlefinger's wrapped up his plans for Sansa and the Vale. After all, he's betrothed her to Harry the Heir; guess who gets the Vale if the "sickly" child dies, as seemed to be commonly thought is likely?
    Sweetsleep not Milk of the Poppy but yeah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisd View Post
    I'm not really sure what you're saying here, boys are children.


    I think he's saying, and I got the impression, that he's fucking the boys and not killing them. I doubt Sandor would get involved in some random pedophile bullshit.

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    I'm not sure Sandor is ever going to find his way to the Vale personally. I think the only thing that will get him involved in the world again will be Robert Strong.

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    Honestly, I have no idea what Sandor will be capable of when/if he reemerges. He was a giver of minimal fucks before, what if he comes out of the monastery with a big dose of righteous fury? I could see him killing just about anyone with that kind of thinking.

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    He has a limp now though, wonder if its permanent? Curious if he will fight with the same effectiveness if he encounters Robert.

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    He'll definitely be around Sansa again, that's half the main point of his arc, to restore her faith in the idea of a true knight (Elder Brother was knighted, he'll knight Sandor) having been the one to tear it down.

    I think he'll kill UnGregor but it will be for a greater purpose. The Elder brother said the Hound lived only to kill his brother, a tormented and twisted existence, if Sandor hears Gregor is back and rushes off to kill him then he hasn't undergone any character growth, more likely killing Gregor's undead form will be like a mercy setting Ungregor free.

    Maybe the super healer on the Quiet Isle can cure his leg and facial scars, when Sandor comes back I don't think he's going to be immediately recognisable to Westeros.

    His list of shit to do I think is brave dragon's fire, kill Corbray and defeat Ungregor.

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    A lot, or even most, of what you are saying would be true if this was a traditional fantasy story. Good vs. bad, straight redemption story, etc. Things just aren't that black and white in Westeros. I just don't think there's any chance GRRM suddenly gives us the traditional knight type character out there saving maidens and doing good. Just, no way. If anything I'd expect him to die in some horrific fashion similar to Oberyn.

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    Exactly what Grimmlokk said. So far the most traditional knight has been Brienne and her story is far from normal fantasy.

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    He's littered Westeros history with great knights and this era and story isn't going to pass without it's own. Just as he's provided near pure evil characters he has had no problem writing the flipside, Brienne and obviously Dunk being the prime examples. Sandor will still die tragically, but not before he's brought the epic. It will just be all the better for having first been grounded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisd View Post
    He's littered Westeros history with great knights and this era and story isn't going to pass without it's own.
    History is written by the winners. Guys like Robert and Gregor will go down as amazing knights. There were stories about how amazing Rhaegar was etc, and Barristan let us know how exaggerated they were.

    Dunk is the closest thing, but you'll notice his story isn't happening in the I&F series, but in a side series. Yeah, Brienne is pretty pure and all, she's also shit on at every turn and had her already ugly face half chewed off. She's also now working for an undead vengeful cunt. Sooo, yeah. Don't expect Lancelot is all I'm saying.

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    Rhaegar was dead before the series began and Robert was fat, no-one is about to go claiming Gregor was an Arthur Dayne (losing side) or Aemon Dragonknight, or anything other than big and brutal. Sandor will remain a grey character because we know his history, it'll be a question of can we get behind a character who basically murdered a child. But he will come back as a righteous sword of the Faith to do epic things, despite being grounded in reality it's still epic fantasy. Then Arya will kill him.

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    I don't see Sansa's faith in anything being restored, she seems more likely to be headed towards becoming Littlefingers 2.0, learning from his amoral political wile and combining it with her natural beauty to become a dominating political player.
    " I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"

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    I love asoiaf theories and knowing what people are saying enriches the reading of the books, but let's be real here. This man was born to shit on assumptions of where he will take his fictional story:

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    I'd like to see something epic happen with Sandor, but with GRRM, you should never expect anything good to happen to any character.

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    Another, word of Quentyn's death, Dany's rejection of him, Dany's army still in Mereen and Dany herself lost maybe dead to reach Westeros. Arianne to seduce Aegon, Doran to demand Aegon marry Arianne for Dorne's support, Aegon/Jon Con consenting, Vary's handing them KL and Arianne becoming Cersei's younger more beautiful queen, unleashing on Cersei what Doran had planned for Tywin.

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    I think that once John comes back as the R'hllor he will lead his army down from the north and re take Winterfell. After that, Lord Reed comes out and tells the truth about John's heritage, someone important is his actual father, he was Ned's nephew all along, not his bastard son. With this new knowledge he lays a claim to the thrown of Westeros, sweeping south he collects all who support him and destroys those who oppose. At some point Robert Strong is brought into the mix and the Hound is given a chance to serve under Snow and promised the opportunity to kill his returned brother.

    Just speculation.. but you never know

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    I'm mostly curious how you end a giant epic like ASoIaF and have it feel right, especially with no central protagonist. It will be interesting to see if the old boy doesn't keel over in the next ten years.

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    I wish that John were really and truly dead, everything about him is just downright frustrating especially given that he painted a giant kill me sign on himself for the entirety of the last book (it also didn't help that GRRM devoted a substantial portion the book to his POV and then stuffed it mainly with filler). He was fine as a soldier and as a wildling but he is terrible as a leader and I can only foresee his chapters being incredibly irritating unless the typical light vs dark scenario rears its ugly and tired head and everyone just has to follow him because its humans vs demons time boys! Then it would just be boring but I'm holding out that Martin can recapture some of his mojo, here's hoping anyhow.
    Last edited by Gask; 02-08-2013 at 01:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gask View Post
    I wish that John were really and truly dead, everything about him is just downright frustrating especially given that he painted a giant kill me sign on himself for the entirety of the last book (it also didn't help that GRRM devoted a substantial portion the book to his POV and then stuffed it mainly with filler). He was fine as a soldier and as a wildling but he is terrible as a leader and I can only foresee his chapters being incredibly irritating unless the typical light vs dark scenario rears its ugly and tired head and everyone just has to follow him because its humans vs demons time boys! Then it would just be boring but I'm holding out that Martin can recapture some of his mojo, here's hoping anyhow.
    I agree. It's like he and Dany are the same character except one is freezing and one is in the desert.

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    They're gonna end up as king and queen. Mark it down.

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    As long as Sandor comes back to fuck up Bob Strong's shit, I'll be happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny49 View Post
    also chocolate release the same chemical in the brain that the feeling of love does, so i am training them to love giving me blowjobs
    Draegan's a faggot.

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    Jon was actually good by the end of ADWD when he decided to use his army and go kill shit. It's a shame he died, but it's going to be ok, he'll be back and undead and even more willing to kill shit.

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