Stopped reading when you said, you liked SWTOR for two months.
I was one of those who were very hyped for Age of Conan. Absorbed all the information I could and longed for the day I could heal faces with my Priest of Mithra. Then came release and even though I trodded on for 80 levels, the game lost its appeal rapidly. Friends began to whisper about Warhammer Online, but I was skeptical. I warmed up to the thought though, and a friend convinced me to buy it. Played for a week, didn't even get to max level.
This made me cynical, even jaded. I no longer felt eager to purchase a new MMO and devote my time to it. Rift came, didn't bother with it until I was handed a free trial (made it to level 5 or so). TERA came. Never even tried it.
Then it appeared. The one beacon of light on the horizon, the one game that would be the saviour of all previous MMO failures: Star Wars. Being a ridiculous fan since a huge age (read maybe 70 different books, comics, extended universe lore etc), I was so unbeliavably stoked. Bioware's previous incarnations we're really amazing and I couldn't wait to see what KOTOR Online would bring. Was invited to a beta weekend and it just made my blood pump harder. This was FINALLY going to be a game to surpass WoW.
Then we had release and we had a huge list of members who wanted to play! Everyone that quit the guild long ago came back and we had a blast leveling, playing warzones and whatnot. Yet something was amiss. People started logging in less and less. After reaching max level on my character I made a new one, and then when my third character was almost 50 I was thinking, what is the point, really?
So I quit. Starwars lasted about 2 months for me, and now I'm back to being a cynical bastard. I am playing pandaria and I do enjoy it quite a bit. I still feel like the WoW raid game is the best that has been offered, but it is growing old.
I really, really would like to feel the experience of discovering a new world again, as I'm sure a lot of you might as well. That's why we have 50 different topics of different games, some released, some in pre-production and some hardly even announced.
SO. What is the point of this rambling thread? Won't this idiot shut up already?
Well, I wanted to ask all of you, what are you looking forward to now in the MMO world and why? Is there anything on the horizon that might make a positive impact on the MMO world or is there just more games that will go to a Pay to Win bandaid model within a month due to game longevity being that of the titanic?
Really, I'd love to know. I don't think I'll obsess as much about a game like I did when I was younger, but it would be cool to see if the industry hasn't completely given up on us
Stopped reading when you said, you liked SWTOR for two months.
I think his point was it took you 2 entire months to figure out it wasn't worth playing.
You can get a couple months worth of playing out of it if all you do is stories and level. I mean, not solid months, but off and on. I leveled all of the empire classes to 50, messed around with pvp, but only did a few Ops before I went, well fuck this. If you're not playing the story, the rest can get fucked. The end game is not there, though I have to be honest and say I didn't really expect to play much end game; I sort of had an inkling it wasn't going to be anything to keep me.
Where is our stand alone offline SWTOR so I can just see all the storylines? I mean shit, I did their filler fodder for all the levels in between my story missions! Take those out and I'd probably pay another 20 bucks for the ability to relive them anytime I wanted.
I don't get people 'tricked' into a sucky mmo.
There you have it. Going into a game with this what you want to get out of it pretty much ensures that once you've seen the world the game will get old really fast.I really, really would like to feel the experience of discovering a new world again, as I'm sure a lot of you might as well.
Honestly I'm not looking forward much to any MMO's coming out. EQNext maybe because they want to "try something different", which is good, but we just don't know anything about it so I'm not going to get totally hyped on it.
I really just want to see something new in MMO's
I don't know what, but every MMO feels the same to me and I don't feel like I'm playing my character. I just feel like I'm playing another game just to get through.
I do however want MMO's to go back to class diversity and certain classes can do shit FAR better than others. That's not to say make the class irrelevant to different playstyles.
Just.. something new and not gimmicky. I wish some of these companies would push innovation through instead of just making another clone of a game that is already out just because it's done well recently. You can't tell me the only big thing to come out of MMO's the last few years has been like.. what, the crafting system in gw2? Pets in MoP?
Last edited by xzi; 12-17-2012 at 11:09 AM.
Your first MMO got your virgin self who was easy to impress. Just other people running around in the game with you and walking up and talking to them was amazing.
Your subsequent games got the jaded you. All the easy things meant nothing to you now, now you wanted quality. Making a quality product is a lot harder to do. You also got older and more sophisticated. You are much harder to please than that wide eyed 17 year old who walked into an MMO for the first time.
It's easy for us to buy into the hype because we've had that first blush experience, which even grows stronger over time, and we think we can have it again.
Meh. Vanilla WoW and most of Burning Crusade (only cause in BC I loved my guild) was absolutely amazing and will forever be in my heart, but I don't want to play those games again. If I wanted to play those games, I'd get on a private server and quit again in a month. I feel like currently we're just stuck in this stupid fucking hole in the industry where it's about quantity and trying to remake a huge hit, not about quality and trying to push limits.
Then again, I guess it is a growing business and what currently brings in money doesn't need to change in the eyes of the company.
Honestly, I feel similar to many other posters- What you want is to have your cherry popped again. Freak, I'd love it. I was so excited, literally, sat on the edge of my seat, waiting for the boat to come to Freeport because I hadn't bound in Kalimdor, and... I was stoked. I was worried, interested... It felt intense. If you tried to give me anything like that now, I'd punch you and walk away. I don't think that the feeling will ever come back man.
I lost my virginity to EQ, but I know, that no other game will bring back that gaming experience. Took me a few years to realize tho. Played basically every MMO since then, but only got a max level char in WHO, Rift and now GW2. And Guild Wars is the only game I still play after I got to max level.
Last edited by LodyR; 12-17-2012 at 12:14 PM.
I think many of you hit the head on the nail with the "cherry popping" metaphor. I consider my first MMO to be Graal, but more properly I guess you could say WoW as I got into the beta of it really early. I think the concept of endgame exists today because the games are designed in such a way. The levels are treated as something you have to do before the 'real game' begins, which I think is bad design to start off with. I never played Anachry online, but my friends did and that game had an absurd amount of leveling content, something which I would like to have, a real sense of constant progression rather than hitting level X and then equipping various colored loot to make you arbitrarily stronger.
I mean, for those who played such MUDS as Aardwolf, I'd love the ability to simply remort at max level, start over and multi-class or w/e. Everything just follows the wow model and it's making me go ZZzZzz...
Really easy way to make sure you will never play a MMO again - never play during launch, always wait for 3 months and then ask around here. Everyone will tell you it's a terrible game you shouldn't waste your time on. In the unlikely event that this doesn't happen, feel fry to try it out.
I agree with the virgin MMO metaphor. There's nothing like the first time.
I think the biggest problem I had is moving from a rabid, hardcore MMO player (EQ, DAOC, & even WOW) to a dirty casual. Deep down I still want the same crack addict feeling I had from early EQ and it's not going to happen again. I am an ex MMO Junkie and I'm angry about it.
Deep down I want that 'fix' and the desire to play 120 hours a week. It ain't going to happen again because it does not matter how good the treadmill is or the world vs world since I've changed.
The current gen of MMOs won't really ever do much for me as it's been mined dry, and I don't see a big leap in technology on the horizon. I'm also not sure if I'm more concerned about never having that early MMO feeling again, or being sucked into hardcore mode once again. It's actually nice not feeling obligated to plan, raid, or schedule my life around a game.
Last edited by Gecko; 12-17-2012 at 01:01 PM.
Planetside 2 is about the most fun I've had in years, but if story is your thing then you're going to be disappointed, unless your version of story is PUSH PUSH FUCKING PUSH CAPTURE POINT A FUCKING GET THAT GODDAMN ARMOR COLUMN FORMED GET TO THE WAYPOINT YOU FUCKERS YOU CAN FARM EXP LATER WE GOTTA CAPP THISSS SHITTT AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Which, at this point, is more than enough for me.
Point is, it definitely has that novel "cherry popping" feel to it. The first time you see 200 people fighting at once with aircraft laying down whoopass and tanks exploding and charging in with 50 infantry... Yeah, that's a new one for me in an MMO.
Last edited by Wrathcaster; 12-17-2012 at 01:27 PM.
I think the problem is us and our attitudes towards games. We expect every game to be just as amazing as our first one, and when we don't get that warm glow of nostalgia for month after month, and when people start to play less, which is only a natural progression, we assume that something is 'wrong,' and wait for the next game to do it right, instead of adjusting our attitude and expectations.
Up until GW2 I thought the same, I thought the problem was that the industry sucked and that if the right game came along I'd be able to bury myself in it for years without a second thought like I did DAoC and early WoW, and love it the entire time. And it's true that since 2004 we've seen a remarkable output of terrible games from various studios, but GW2 is what convinced me that evenly with a perfectly good game, one as well done or better than early WoW or DAoC, that feeling couldn't be captured, and that the problem was our expectations, and not the genre. Sure, GW2 is buggy as hell and lacks a lot, but no more so than WoW and certainly no more so than early EQ or DAoC or UO. Then you combine that with the fact that new games are coming out and competing against current ones with years of development time and feedback.
In short, it isn't realistic to expect an MMO to come out which will keep you blissfully occupied for several hours a day indefinitely. We need to adjust our expectations and realize that it's perfectly normal to play these games for a few months, get bored, then stop playing until they've added new stuff or the burnout has worn off. MMO's are best played cyclically, not as a lifestyle.
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
I've played a few hours of PS2, but need to delve deeper. I really hope the big battles that were so prevalent in PS1 beta but disappeared after release are there.
I switched to Steam, I don't deal with MMOs specifically anymore. Guild Wars 2 had my interest for a little while there, but its all the same in the end.
All the deals you get on Steam, and its ridiculous library of games gives you a new experience any time. They also have just about every free-to-play MMO and multiplayer game you can think of.
MMOs are getting too redundant and are just all copycatting each other. Anything "new and fresh" is full of bugs and barely delivers on its promises. Don't circle the MMO threads like a vulture waiting for its next meal, you're just going to starve in the end.
Kaige#1128 - Battle.net
Kaige - Steam
What mmo is worth playing?
Really. The trolls will all jump up and down and make fun of people for playing AoC, SWTOR or GW2 for a couple months but they never mention what mmos are good. SWTOR sucked but it was fun for a few short weeks until you hit the endgame. The same can be said of all the recent mmo's - AoC, Rift, GW2, the list goes on and on. WoW didn't do it for me either, too much like EQ and the graphics are ass.
If you are a WoW fanboy and that is your end all be all then say so. That is what most of the trolls seem to be.
Personnally, I've pretty much given up on mmo's. None of them float my boat anymore. Been there, done that etc, etc, etc. Would love to get that feeling back again but the genre needs a reboot first.
Last edited by Grim1; 12-17-2012 at 02:28 PM.
Your problem is twice as rough for people who want their MMO PvP. We've been reduced to trying red99 for Christ's sake. The levelling up parts of Warhammer was pretty fun though. That was like the last sweet taste.
Pick up The Secret World ( http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.p...e-Secret-World ) . It's got story, atmosphere, the people are generally alright, and it's buy to play with no sub. On the broader subject though, every MMO is built to be a one month hitter quitter now, that's why they don't stick.
I was in The Secret World closed beta. Another game that was fun for all of 6 weeks..
They at least tried to be different though. Have to give them props for that.
The irony of the modern day MMO is that by making everything accessible to every player, they have removed the need to know a player. The online game is multiplayer, but it is not a community. One thing that perhaps needs to change is the actual term used for these games. MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. We need to take Games like Everquest, Asheron's Call, DAoC and even EvE and perhaps add one more letter. MMOC would be a better designation for these games as the C would stand for "Community". This is what has not been released in a very long time. I am hoping that the new Everquest will indeed be the next MMOC.
Do you feel blame? Are you mad? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XREnv...eature=related
It would be really interesting to see what a new MMO player (Lets say their first MMO was WoW TBC) would think. Do they feel jaded the same way a lot of the veterans here do?
Then there's this odd expectation that a game will come out that you want to play all the time for months on end is something that will happen frequently.
Or you can just buy an mmo, play it for a month or two until you've done all the content you are interested in, then stop and move on to another game just like NEARLY EVERY OTHER GENRE THAT EXISTS.
I know man. It's that extra $15 they make you pay should you play longer than one month. When you are already a few hundred hours in - enough time to play even a final fantasy game five times over, paying extra just seems like a massive commitment. A marriage contract, really.
The psychological effect of paying a subscription fee somehow elevates MMO into the realm of "It has to be completely perfect and so engrossing that I dedicate every minute of my free time to it." When really what you pay is simply proportional to the amount of content you are getting.
Most people who buy Call of Duty do not play multiplayer. They pay $60 for a five hour game. The initial cost for one month (potentially hundreds of hours) of a MMO is similar. Yet for some reason, that sub makes people think they have to give up their house and kids should they cancel their subscription.
And people who want to play old content forever are another special kind of crazy. After playing Legend of Zelda 250 times you might want to give the SNES one a try.
Last edited by Kreugen; 12-17-2012 at 04:51 PM.
Personally I have not looked into up and coming mmos as yet, GW2 was suppose to be my last mmo to look forward to, but those bastards at anet are taking their sweet time giving any love to wvw, I just don't give a shit to anything else they're doing to the game, which to me looks like they're destroying the game one piece at a time. I haven't seen anything interesting yet in the upcoming year.
The problem here in this genre is there is little to no innovation. Partly because of the risk, but the majority of it due to recycled developers who are stuck in a certain mindset. People like Hickman and Vogel, who just stagnante design and listen to publisher heads, continue to get jobs and move on to the next project.
What this genre needs (And this is pretty much an industry wide problem at this point) is new meat in the game.
Honestly stuff like watching Kreug drunk driving c-4 laden jeeps trying to Allah Ackbar tanks on Kharg Island was more fun to me then any MMORPG I have played in recent years.
Think I will be sticking with MMOFPS/FPS from now on. (and any Brian Fargo/Chris Avellone games)
Last edited by Regime; 12-17-2012 at 05:06 PM.
Or a quality product that sticks to a proven formula without shitting it up with crappy gimmick "innovations" that hurt more than they help. Like the button smash combat they tried in AOC, or the manual targeting shit tired in various games that was totally pointless, or the group play from GW2 that removes the trinity and replaces it with nothing at all.
Innovation, not always a good idea. Especially when you know it is bad, but push it anyway for the sake of trying to look different.
Eve Online is the only game I've managed to play for more than 3 months since my burnout on WoW during the Burning Crusade era. Your actions having actual meaning and the ability to really lose shit makes stuff a lot more fun and interesting. It isn't for everyone, but is worth trying if you haven't already.
My main hope for the future is a game where:
You can actually lose stuff ala Eve
Content is player designed, with true power (scripted encounters and such) given to the players. Aka a lot more is doable than the canned build your own dungeon experience that some games have played with.
There is strong motivation for the people creating the content to make it hard.
I think of this as basically competitive PvE. You design content you don't want people to beat, then others try to beat it. I've seen it work great in MUDs, places people play for years rather than months.
As for current games on the horizon, I can't think of any MMOs that appeal to me. I have hopes for Pathfinder Online and might player around with FFIV when it is rereleased. I guess I'll continue to putz around in Eve, although even that is starting to get old (although it has entertained me for 3+ years as opposed to the typical 3 months).
Nostalgia? Fuck that shit. Devs are just straight up retarded now is what it is, nothing more. Get pissed that you aren't raiding anymore, I know I am. I raided for over a goddamn decade, and just because some group of FUCKING RETARDS decides that badge gear and skipping instances is more fun for little fuck idiot wonders who want their gear to be PURPLE, it's now no longer worth it at all. Yeah, they'd like you to think you're only remembering things fondly because of Nostalgia(tm), I'm sure.
LOL LOOK GUYS IT'S AN AVATAR I USED LIKE 10 YEARS AGO HOW AWESOME IS THAT WE SHOULD BRING BACK THE BLACK GUY NEXT LOLOLOLOLOL
I have tried Eve several times and always get burnt out after a few weeks once I realize i'm going to be stuck doing the same 4 missions 1500 times to be able to buy my new ship (and they are boring as hell to me). I love the concept, players being able to run the world etc but it just doesn't keep me interested while i'm actually playing. As others have said, I have more fun reading about it and reading the stories about big events etc.
I also agree with the virgin comments. EQ and UO were my first two MMOs (UO first then EQ) back when I was a young'n. My dad got me UO for my 12th birthday and so began my addiction to online gaming. I still have so many memories of those two games that it's almost ridiculous. I remember being outside Qeynos on my level 3 human when night hit and it got so dark that I literally couldn't see anything while I was running around and then (I think it was Fippy Darkpaw?) started yelling. I still remember going from 1-12 on a barbarian killing polar bears hoping for the pristine skin to get some money, and running like mad when that gnoll dungeon got trained up from the lower levels while my group struggled to grind out the top levels. I remember seeing mage pets on higher level mages and instantly creating a mage afterwards because I wanted so badly to have an awesome elemental following me around too!
I loved UO because it didn't have levels or tiered loot etc. I loved EQ because leveling up and making it to new zones actually felt like an accomplishment. Levels in games now go by so fast that it almost makes me wonder why they don't just start everyone at level 60-100 whatever they decide to make the cap because it only takes 2 weeks to get there playing casually. Skills and new spells feel worthless because you get new ones every 45 minutes.
I haven't been a fan of crafting in any of them since UO (some crafting is worthless, others it's decent but obsoleted by world drops/quest rewards). UO was awesome because you could put 100% of your skill points into crafting/gathering skills and then run around the world actually playing your blacksmith or your carpenter. Now all it has turned in to is a little bit of bonus exp on your warrior and you better not try to go harvest those nightshade plants in some dangerous area because there are level restrictions placed on even gathering stuff. What if I don't want to spend 40 hours grinding out X mob so that I can play as a tradesman?
As far as raiding and end game content goes, I have never done a raid. The closest I got was farming heroics in Cataclysm which got boring as hell a long time before I had the iLvL to do raids. Now that i'm older too (especially working in a restaurant where my schedule isn't set in stone) I can't join the raiding guilds who say "ok you have to be logged on from 7pm to 2am on Tuesday Thursday Friday, 12pm to 11pm on Saturday and 9am to 10pm Sunday" (yes i'm exaggerating on the hours). I also don't really have the patience to spend 4 hours to kill 2 bosses and some trash mobs whose only requirement to kill is the ability to hit the same 3 buttons and dodge the same 2 attacks without falling asleep.
I also love how many people in this thread have referenced MUDs. Some of the best times i've ever had have been on MUDs and it saddens me that a few of my favorites have died over the last few years (and a couple died a while ago) =(.
In the end I suppose i'm mostly hoping for an MMO that combines so many of the things I loved about older MMOs etc. Crafting actually being a viable character, player controlled everything for the most part (would be hard if not impossible, but imagine players being able to form the Mages Guild and running the whole thing, new members, creating spells/training new members, being the Archmage that knows magic nobody else does etc!), leveling up actually being a game and meaningful instead of a tutorial for the real game that consists of a few dungeons at lvl XX. Eve does a lot of this but like I said before, the combat and travel times just get redundant and boring to me too quickly (3 hours of nothing but watching warp jumps because you have to go a few systems away for something is not enjoyable). To be fair to Eve, I never actually got around to trying out 0.0 and fleet combat because tackling or whatever it is that everyone recommends new players try never sounded too appealing to me (also doesn't help that i'm way more into fantasy settings etc than space warfare)
Agree with James too. It's not all nostalgia, devs don't care about anything now except how to maximize profits. Dungeon finders are horrible too IMO. You know how stupid it is to be a healer in a dungeon with 4 premade retards and then you get kicked right before the end boss who can drop a piece of loot that one of them wants after busting ass keeping the noobs alive through the entire dungeon just because that loot would also be good for you? It's like the votekick system in games like HoN too, the only people who actually use it are trollin retarded shits who get giggles from it (nobody ever kicks actual griefers which is what it's supposedly for).
Last edited by ZombieWizardhawk; 12-17-2012 at 06:00 PM.
When you have kids make sure you tell them how much better and harder MMOs were back in your day, kids really appreciate old people telling them that kind of stuff
I kind of feel that the thing I loved about EQ was being honestly scared.
The game was hard and if you died at least at first you had to go retrieve your corpse and if it was under a mob you died multiple times. It was so fun finding ways to get your corpse back, camp a spaun, or survive lower Guk the first time. When a game gets your heart pounding that is the hook at least for me.
I agree with some of the previous post saying that games are getting easier and now every character has to be able to do everything. If you choose to be a warrior maybe it is OK to not be able to heal you self as well and them shoot lightning bolts out of you ass.
I think the ability to easily get through the levels quickly leads to the focus on end game. I know endgame was a part of EQ but all I know is it really was not a huge focus to me or most of the people I hung out in the game. Plus it took me forever to get to max level, granted I am a casual gamer but it took me 2 years to get to max level and had fun the entire time even with the max level increasing every time I got close. Honestly I spend more time focused on obtaining unique items and strange quests that neted me nothing but a few pixels int he end but I had a ball doing it.
Only very recently have a felt a similar feeling and that was playing DayZ. The game has a million problems but running for you life trying to find a weapon just to get wasted by a PK got my heart pounding. I know I am being nostalgic about the past and I agree in the "popping your cherry" theory but DayZ proved to me that it is a feeling that hopefully another game can harness.
Lack of LFD is what ensured that I would not sub for a second month of TSW. That and once you finish the quests you've beaten the best part of the game anyway.
Pretty sure they're still losing subs there, slicknuts, probably because they can't think of anything past "MUST HAVE BADGES."
LOL LOOK GUYS IT'S AN AVATAR I USED LIKE 10 YEARS AGO HOW AWESOME IS THAT WE SHOULD BRING BACK THE BLACK GUY NEXT LOLOLOLOLOL
I would love for MMO's to get away from leveling as a "progression" system. All anybody has done since BC WoW was rush to max level as fast as they can to try to get in some dungeons and possibly raids. Nobody actually pays any attention at all to any quests, nobody cares what zone they're in aside from the one that has the biggest quest hub, and nobody does any content inbetween really.
It's just boring at this point. There are so many alternate ways to progress in games like this. I like the way Planetside handled levels; as in you get absolutely nothing from leveling aside from a title and an icon to show off on your armor.
Hell, don't even give everyone their main spells. I remember doing Class specific quests that were hard as shit but they were SO rewarding. They don't even have to be uber hard and require end-game progression, just give me something else from quests aside from a plate chest piece with +2 gooder on it. Make the quests matter! I don't know if you guys remember seeing a lock or a paladin with their class epic mounts in Vanilla WoW, but it was a really fucking big deal for a long time to be able to have those. Same with the staff Benediction for priests. Each quest had their own lore too. Of course, not every quest has to have a big epic moment or payoff, but I really wish we had more of quests like these.
I just want my character to be more involved other than logging in, doing some dailies or some PvP, and logging off because that's what I'm accustomed to for the last 4 years with almost every MMO I've played.
One can dream I suppose.
Last edited by xzi; 12-17-2012 at 07:59 PM.
Steam, embrace green light games. Currently playing Don't Starve and Defenders Quest. Good times.
Then the first expansion hit and some new content was added. The higher level mobs were buffed and their xp value was greatly increased. The level cap looked possible, although barely. The grind really kicked in. Since there was a goal to aim for you felt the need to really grind for xp, and it took a huge amount of grinding.
Yeah I haven't played an MMO longer then 3 months aince I left woW to go EQ2, after that I've pretty much been in every major MMO and just skip around waiting for something to grab me and it never has.
Right now I'm waiting for Wildstar to come out, nothing before or after looks good to me.
So in the mean time, steam sales and Borderlands 2 DLC's as they come out.
Last edited by AngryDwarf; 12-17-2012 at 09:46 PM.
When you die in a new MMO what do you think? If your like me you're like "oh well, a 1 min run". In eq when I died in the bottom of old seb and our rogue LDed I grab my monitor and threw it out of my window. I knew it would be quicker and easier to get a new one then it would be to get my corpse back.
EQ, how I miss you.
Kruegen is going to turn into a panda. I hope that Palladius axe is usable by them.
Otherwise we can just go bury it for ya.
still waiting for a sandbox fantasy MMO w/ innovative combat system like TERA. Grinding shit for gear and level is pointless as fuck. Doesn't do shit, only advances you in BG or Dungeons. Outside world is completely irrelevant. One can dream....
Last edited by Trollface; 12-17-2012 at 11:02 PM.
I think what also factors in is that an MMO launching today has to be pretty well polished. Makes it hard to really do innovative stuff, since the investors want to get paid.
My biggest problem has been finding a good guild to do shit with. After the last one I was in dissolved, I just had a hard time caring enough to join another. And playing MMOs without a good group of people around sucks massive me-dick.
I never last with MMOs either. I get bored easy with them. Rift, a few weeks (made it to like level 30 something.) WoW, play for a month or so after an expansion, cancel, then come back later for another week or two. AoC, couple of weeks. WAR was a couple of weeks. Even Guildwars 2, my character is sitting at level 73 after a couple of weeks of play, never to log in but (twice?) I think again after that.
I've got like two days /played at 90 on my WoW character right now after like a month+ of being 90. I didn't even do LFRs this week, I simply don't have the will to log in and bother. I'm not even blaming the games, necessarily, I just don't have the time to really explore them fully and find out everything that's fun about them.
What made the best MMORPG experience ever (EQ1 pre-GOD) was PVP. Not red servers. PVP in the sense that I WIN, YOU LOSE.
Consider three fictional server-community members, Nate TheHero, Franky TryHard, and Timmy TenHours in an Up-Coming-Never-To-Be-Made MMORPG. In order to have meaningful interactions in our server community, there will need be winners and losers, and everyone in between. The following scenario illustrates this interaction on a basic level:
Nate TheHero was chilling at a market, drinking expensive ale, spending his fortune from slaying TheDragon. There he sees Franky TryHard and Timmy TenHours drinking decent ale and dog piss ale, respectively. At this point, Nate TheHero makes a comment:
"Hey Franky TryHard and Timmy TenHours, want some sweet l00t like me, bros? Well too bad, cause me and my 40 homies already slayed that dragon and he won't be around for a couple days."
This kind of interaction made the game FUN. A game that everyone wins at ISN'T FUN. However,that DOESN'T mean everyone has to be a loser.
But not everyone can be me, Nate TheHero. Thats because I'm a member of PowerLordsWTFOwnedYOU, the best 40 man guild on our server. We have the resources and coordination to play 20-40 hours a week, focusing on progression. We spend our time harvesting resources, which there is a finite amount of, and generally blocking Franky TryHard from getting on our level, which he and his guild so desperately want to do.
Maybe Franky TryHard is willing to accept his role as my bitch, as a member of Guild NoOneCaresAbout#2 on the server. It doesn't mean Franky is a loser. He probably enjoys putting in a solid 10-20 hours a week with GuildNoOneCaresAbout#2, getting nice loot and impressing the majority of the population, ServerRetards1.5k. He has adequate gear, resources and coordination to attempt all but the top 10-15% of raid level content. He wants to be like me, Nate TheHero but he can't because I raid with PowerLordsWTFOwnedYOU and we all play 40 hours a week, spending our time monopolizing the scarce and best resources, leaving Frank's level of content to Frank. Though once in awhile we're busy and Frank gets a MOB we actively kill, and starts believing he and his crew can actually compete with PowerLordsWTFOwnedYOU.
This bring us to the third guild on the server, ServerRetards1.5k. They play 2-15 hours a week, often times just exploring or knitting scarves or whatever the fuck Timmy TenHours do with their time. They still have good enough coordination and gear to accomplish 75% of all group and small raid content. Their gear is mostly adequate, and they can even pinch in for Guild NoOneCaresAbout#2, but not really for PowerLordsWTFOwned you. They still have plenty of content to play the game at their speed, and find enjoyment in progression. When they see a member of PowerLordsWTFOwnedYOU, they ask about their gear (which looks really cool and special, not sorta bland like their own gear) and maybe for a top of the line buff, which they generally don't have access to, because the spell is a rare drop from a top tier mob.
The point being made here is that diversity in community is missing in current MMORPGS. Make a game where not everyone wins and let the drama flow.
Last edited by nate; 12-18-2012 at 01:38 AM.
since we have a new forum now, i can't be banned by washed up game designers whose pussies ache because they and their company sold out.
this industry objectively fucking sucks in such an absolutely terrible and disgusting way for anyone concerned about real gameplay. if you just think for 5 whole minutes about the last 12 years and how completely wretched every new game released has been, and especially the complete casualization of EVERYTHING caused by WoW, you can't help but laugh in tears of total sadness... at what could've been had tiny timmy and sally soccer mom stayed on facebook instead of seeing ozzy whore himself on tv for a 'cool new game they should play with their casual friends!'
there's nothing coming out, and there hasn't been a true mmorpg since wow vanilla in 2004. everything else post-tbc, has been a single-player game with multiplayer options labeled a mmorpg in order to extract subs from people. now, those same fucking retard designers are saying nobody wants to pay for subs, so they make their shitty games F2P. hey, maybe it's because nobody wants to pay for a single-player game played on a server?
how about instead you focus on making worlds that are terrifying, difficult, and exciting? how about instead of worrying about how to appeal to every fucking retard under the sun, you make gameplay that's exciting to a small and dedicated group of people?
but it won't happen. titan will be a joke, as everything else will be once this industry has been totally devastated and hollowed out. maybe reborn, from the ashes... a glimmer of hope could rise... SMED?
Last edited by Dumar; 12-18-2012 at 01:11 AM.
All MMO's prior to WoW existed in a niche market. WoW capitalized on Blizzard's established popularity and became the first MMO to eventually break out and go mainstream. Therefore it became the business model for pretty much every mmo that has been released since.
WoW has continued to add new features in order to remain relevant to players. Therefore each of these features are primarily concerned with customer retention and acquisition. Which translated means, the threshold to enter the game has continued to be lowered and the need to complete old content is removed. As the game has aged, the desire to make the game easier and easier to access has eventually eroded all but the last vestiges of the early niche market that WoW was inspired from.
This in turn has acted as a beacon to most new developers who continue to compete with the latest iteration of WoW. Therefore WoW's customer retention techniques have effectively watered down the entire industry.
So here we are today, everyone is in a race to the bottom, to see who can make their game the easiest and most 'appealing' to new players. Which translated means most new games that come out feel weak as hell, with an over emphasis on a shallow leveling mechanic and complete and utter lack of long term content.
Now, to finish my soap box rant in style I just need to tell you what my ideal game would be.
Things to Include:
-Responsive Combat. Combat should feel solid. Each button press and ability activation needs to feel responsive. No matter what system is in place, responsive action and animations are a must.
-Active/Reactive Combat. The player should be as concerned with the abilities of his opponent as they are their own. Enable effective counters and blocks that are time sensitive and require practice to pull off. This can be tricky given the latency issues found online but I do not believe it to be impossible.
-Diverse AND exclusive paths to develop a character. Everyone should not be good at everything. The more a character specializes into a certain role, the fewer roles they should be able to fill. This promotes cooperation between players as the most effective networks involve many highly specialized characters.
-More than just combat. Allow players to engage and develop their characters in a couple different spheres, such as economy, production, transportation and politics. Keeping in mind the above point, this may create some non-combat characters, which may sound horrible but really isn't.
-Emphasis on player knowledge and technique over stats. A seasoned vet playing a brand new character should utterly eradicate a truly fresh player using identical equipment. This is a much better player retention scheme than gear resets. An old school player coming back to the game will be able to be very effective with minimal gear investments and therefore the threshold for reentry is low. This requires a system with enough depth as to reward mastery of it.
-Meaningful large scale competition and cooperation. This really should be the beating heart of the game. Players should be encouraged above all else to work together within their group to overcome other groups of players or challenges. The best resources, rewards, loot, ect should only be obtainable through some form of cooperation. If this is not the main focus of the game, then don't bother making it an online title.
Things to Omit:
-Meaningless leveling content. If there is an end game, it should just be THE game. A day one, level one character should be able to contribute to a group of seasoned veterans in some way. Their effectiveness and abilities will grow in time, but there should be plenty of ways to "help" achieve a goal that is independent of character level.
-Emphasis on power modifiers such as gear and levels. A player's knowledge about how to fight, techniques to use in various situations, how to handle certain monsters, ect. should be where a player draws the majority of their "power" from in a fight. Gear should act as tools that open up different abilities and techniques and not as additional levels.
-Ease of access elements that obliterate the need for players to remember each other. LFR, LFD, cross server stuff. All of these elements cause players to forget who they just grouped with as the chance that it might happen again is so low as to be negligible. The game should be designed to draw people together over common goals and ensure that people keep running into each other again and again.
-Artificial barriers on players. Forcing players to engage the game in exactly the one and only way as envisioned by the developers is rather weak design. It requires the use of caps, walls, despawn mechanics, and a host of other things that just ruin people's fun. The majority of the fun in EQ anyways was trying to circumvent the dangers and skip straight to the good parts. A game should totally embrace that mentality and encourage people to completely negate challenges and barriers in any way they can come up with.
-Daily Quests The epitome of repetitive grind. The game really needs to be developed with a non static world in mind. Every time a player walks through the same region, the chances of having the exactly same experience as last time should be very low. There are many ways to achieve this but it should be a fundamental goal.
I am sure I could come up with a dozen more... but who cares right.
I found gw2 too boring to play but didn't it do nearly all the things in your list?
imo MMos are fun when you have friends who play, doesn't really matter which MMO or how shitty it is. Most of you have no friends who game anymore, QED you hate MMOs.
This god damn virginity metaphor has GOT TO STOP. Has anyone actually had sex before? The first time sucks. For just about everybody. I don't know anyone who gets super nostalgic about their first fuck. It is awkward, clumsy, and over too fast.
Haven't been staying up on what's being developed. I think it's pretty dry. No one has the money or tech to hang with blizzard anymore. Guess I'm just waiting on Titan. Although there are a bunch of mmos worth playing IMO, secret world is good for story, wow for raiding and ganking, gw2 for semi massive pvp. Myself due to personal stuff I haven't had a chance to play most of the new mmo stuff hardcore, so maybe that's why those games still have something to offer me.
Eat that shit.
LOL LOOK GUYS IT'S AN AVATAR I USED LIKE 10 YEARS AGO HOW AWESOME IS THAT WE SHOULD BRING BACK THE BLACK GUY NEXT LOLOLOLOLOL
The underlying problem is that the community went to shit: Better players won't teach the baddies how to become better players themselves anymore, because the baddies feel they play good enough and "hey, it's only a game". And even if you try to they either ignore you or feel outright offended and throw insults at you. From personal experience as a tank I'd rather ignore the retribution paladin with the righteous fury buff than to point it out to him.
It has come down to the game itself to teach the players how to become better--which of course is idiotic, but with the current state of the community (or the non-existance of it) I don't see any other way. But that can only be done if content doesn't make big jumps in difficulty (like from the normal to heroic dungeons of Cata).
I am no longer the target market for AAA MMOs. Conversely, if you transported my mid 20's self back to March '99, I'd never pick-up EverQuest. I'd be talking about some MUD I'd been playing since I was 12, and between gulps of mountain dew, I'd be complaining on lycos about 3d graphics ruining the dungeon crawling experience.
Looking back at what I played growing up, not all of it is sunshines and rainbows. Some of the old games are pretty horse shit. Vanilla WoW and I guess EQ during its inception were perfectly tuned in the sense that everyone plays differently. Towards the end of the vanilla wow cycle, you had groups that raided all different parts of the game and I don't ever recall anyone bitching about not seeing Naxxramas ever. Rather, people were amazed when you stood flaunting your awesome gear in Ironforge or Orgrimmar. Now that, gentlemen, was more fun. When there was an actual disparity between raid groups, rather than "I get the color red because I raid heroics, you get blue because you play looking for ass mode"
GW2 did do a lot of those things, but they failed to give their end game any meaning. WvWvW is only there for bragging rights and nothing else really, it provides measly benefits for the server. The 1-80 game had some interesting exploration, but it didn't require any cooperation. People did help each other because there was no barrier to, but everyone was essentially running around solo. Dungeons became a mess with classes having no well defined roles and fights became pretty disorganized.
They did do a lot of things well, but tying WvWvW to the server more directly, (like have actual zones on the server become the battle ground. Depending on whether you win or lose determines what happens in that zone until it comes up again in the rotation) and having more well defined slots and roles for characters to fill in parties would have gone a long way to improve it.
Combat should have enough mechanics to keep things diverse, but not so many as to prevent strategies and tactics from forming. If there are 100 thousand different types of attacks and ailments, it's pretty hard to keep track of things and develop a plan. A really good dungeon crawl should present challenges like mini puzzles. Each hostile group, or pack or obstacle should have multiple solutions and some of them should not involve combat. The group that makes the most effective use of the tools they have on hand will get things done quicker and suffer fewer defeats. Having fights turn into crazy ability spam fests is pretty boring and unrewarding.
Last edited by Pancreas; 12-18-2012 at 09:24 AM.
Whoever brought up Graal, *thumbsup* That little fucking game was a blast in the early 2000s. Nowadays I just play on the BC private server I have linked in my sig, gets 2000+ people online at all times of the day sometimes, the raiding and pvping at 70 are blizz-like and gives me shit to do when I feel like playing a game.
TBC and Vanilla were great because of this. You still needed a strong guild, and a great core of players to do the more difficult content. But there were large variances in the difficulty--so more than half your slots could go to weak players and that was a GOOD thing. It let you bring the dopey pot head that was average DPS, but made the guild laugh. It made it so you didn't have to be a complete dick about who your friends were just because you wanted to do content--but it also kept enough difficulty that you had to keep your eyes peeled for exceptional players and it still allowed guilds with great cores to excel faster. So, yeah, I don't think their constant raising of the difficulty is good...I don't think them lowering it is good either, though. I think the best solution is allowing enough wiggle room in encounters, by NOT scripting everything to death, to allow for stronger players to carry weaker ones. Weaker players get to see content, stronger players get to be little heroes, cliques get formed for great drama, and best of all--a broader amount of players can play with their friends without these artificial dividing lines of difficulty.
Which leads me to my next point--I don't believe it's nostalgia making us cynical about MMO worlds. I think the biggest issue with MMO's today is developers who have God complexes. Every small facet of the game, both good and bad, is controlled. Oh--this epic sword isn't difficult enough to obtain, so we'll make you defeat boss X, which requires Y APM, at least 20 times before you can get it. This epic sword is too difficult to obtain. Lower the amount of precisely choreographed actions per minute required to obtain badges, and slightly tweak the amount of badges required to obtain, and make the pommel of the sword drop more often.
Everything from the loot, to the boss mechanics is controlled on the smallest of levels. Nothing in the world feels natural, or special, because everything has a puppet string attached. Sometimes simple and open is just...better. And that's not to say scripting, and molds/badges and LFD don't have their places, they most certainly do...All of these things are great in an MMO. But there comes a point where you can smother a world by pushing a good thing too far. Not every fight needs to require a guild to dance a psychotic ballet, not every piece of loot needs to come from precise placement in progression. Throw some curves, make it feel like there isn't a developer hand stuck up the content's ass. Let your developers flex their imaginations. Let PvP be a little imbalanced because some asshole camped for 99000 hours and got a lucky drop. Let some guild's main tank still wear his Dire Maul BP in Black Wing because his luck was shit. As long as these things are offset somewhat by the "control" systems, it's OKAY. The problem is when a developer makes any of these nuanced, "real" feeling frustrations be completely eliminated by artificial systems, you brush away any character your world has. It's left sterile, with no flaws to make it real, to make the "good" feel natural. (And I'm not saying it has to be ball breaking hard to make rewards feel "earned"...I'm talking about how a world feels more real when everything doesn't work like a god damn vending machine.)
I know this is pretty abstract stuff...But it's pretty simple. Being perfect doesn't give something character. Just the same as something being super-difficult and requiring huge time sinks doesn't give something character. There is a balance there that the developers are missing. I think a lot of their problems come from wanting to create a "perfect game", rather than a "good world"--the two things are very subtly different, but they are different. And the difference is not Theme Park Vs Sandbox, Sandboxes can be choked out with developer smothering too. It's more subtle than that...Games need that element of table top DM/Story teller back...That overriding desire to build a world of your own, and not a desire to control the characters in it. WoW is full of great game designers, I just don't think there are many great world builders left though.
Last edited by Lithose; 12-18-2012 at 11:44 AM.
The problem is MMO fantasy gaming is a one size fits all experience.. As far as levels, item levels, and tiered gear well, that makes this design easy to manage and simple to implement new carrots. The problem is how do you change that and make people still want to cough up 15/month?
I think there are some cool new quests that came out with Pandaria, but by and large the overall gaming experience isn't that much different and I personally would love something new and innovative. I doubt we'll get that from Blizzard who does what they do well, but will wait until someone else has a cool new idea to steal it.
Even Star Trek Online with it's 30 subscribers refuses to really give up much control with it's player generated missions.
Last edited by Gecko; 12-18-2012 at 01:25 PM.
I have said this many times throught the recent years and will continue to wish for it. EQ the next generation if done right, I would of course play. However, just take the game EvE and apply the base idea/structure to a fantasy like setting. That is a game I would play for many many years. DAoC touched this idea just a little bit, but nothing was permantely destroyed and the PvP world was not near large enough. It would take a lot of work, but if the end result could be managed, it would easily be a game worth playing for a long time.
As for the future, I don't see much that looks promising. Pathfinder Online has some potential, but it also has a decent chance of never seeing the light of day.
i don't want to be wholly negative, but this is reality.
the quality of game design in this industry has taken an absolute shit-dive in the last decade and has totally fucked up any progression in gameplay we could've seen in this genre. the mmog industry has regressed, not progressed.
box sales or sub counts mean nothing. success is not indicative whatsoever of quality. if you want your mcmansion down on newport with your pool full of swedish supermodels in money hats, then you do what modern wow has done: cater to every single demographic that exists by dumbing-down gameplay, removing barriers, homogenizing any differences, and minimizing any effects of choices that you give players, restrictions and more restrictions. yup, you'll be a financial success and get the tiny timmys, sally soccer moms, and joe casual dads all signed up for your little casual mcmmo because these demographics are stupid and don't know any better, because they don't want to know any better. they don't want to think or face any mental challenges or hardship - they just want to push buttons and see sparkles for a few hours after work.
design for them and you'll get your money hats, but man up to it - man up to selling out and losing your and your company's integrity. and by selling out i mean no longer are you designing in terms of what makes for interesting gameplay itself - in terms of any vision of a game world you may have, but you inconsistently mash different systems together, badges, tokens, points, pvp, LFR, based on business metrics like marketing or usage data, exclusively designing mcdungeons and boxes of rooms and calling them raids - and it grows into a giant blob of incoherent and inconsistent designs driven solely by beancounters for the sole purpose of maximizing revenue streams and profit margins.
this isn't how you design ANYTHING, movies, music, or video games. you're not designing to an audience anymore. you're designing to every audience. and this, removing all those euphemisms, is fucking selling out.
now, this seething mass of casual demographic ADHD sheep quits and resubs every few months because there's no more pokemon to catch, and they need their fix somewhere else, maybe farmville 7 or halo 10. so what do these absolutely retarded designers believe? they listen to the suits again. woe to us, no one wants to pay a sub anymore! 11.99 is just way too expensive the marketing dept says. so we'll make our game F2P and revenue-stream the fuck out of it by putting in cash shops, microtransactions, and pay auction houses.
now your integrity has gone past rock bottom, not only are you designing to every single monkey breathing, you're now directly impacting the gameplay and social dynamic inside the game itself by introducing item acquisition outside of it for use inside of it.
and these fucking idiot designers wonder why a sub model is outdated? it's their fucking fault.
Here's a little tip for everyone who thinks they know what WoW needs more than Blizzard does: Blizzard tracks everything. This means that when they frantically backpedal on the core design of an expansion (c.f. the complete 180 in difficulty curve design that happened after the trollroics and the frantic nerfing of Firelands/introduction of LFR), it usually means they've got all sorts of metrics on "PUG Heroics starts vs PUG Heroics completes", "Time played vs time idling" and the like on top of all of the "I am cancelling my subscription because of X" feedback and people shouting on messageboards.
So when they remove all the artificial difficulty gating, it's because they know that's why people are quitting. See also: Ghostcrawler's uncharacteristically rapid admission that Golden Lotus dailies was a bad design they won't do in the future - they've almost certainly got data from a whole bunch of people who got to, say, honoured/revered and then went "Fuck this shit" and stopped repping.
I would have been happy to save blizzard some time and tell them that rep grinds are fried shit served up on some ass crackers. The fact that they need to compile data to figure that one out, really shows where they are in terms of the design process... out to fucking lunch.
There was another time when heroics were decent challenges. Right when TBC came out. Some of them were grueling and hard and gave nothing in the way of a decent reward for the effort, but damn if they weren't fun to complete, just to say you did. I really don't think there was a mass exodus of players back then because heroics were too hard. They did tone them down not too long into the expansion if I remember though, so I am sure they were getting all kinds of whine mail about it. But for me, and several others I know, they were a good time.
However, TBC was earlier in the development cycle and people expected to have to put in some effort in order to get things done. Cataclysm came on the heels of WoTLK and it's AoE Spam fest heroic grind train extravaganza. People equated Heroics to badge farming at that point. So when they got bitch smacked upside the head with a challenge, they just sat their stunned for a second; Then they started to cry as they realized how hard it was going to be for them to faceroll their way though all the badges they needed to get the shit they wanted.
The real issue is not presenting players with a challenge, the real issue is when you have coddled your player base to the point where they expect everything for nothing and THEN present them with a challenge. Blizzard has made it abundantly clear that they do not care about stratifying the player base at this point. They are no longer offering an RPG, they are now running an online, virtual doll dressing service. The only way that works is if everyone is able to wear everything regardless of the effort put forth.
Last edited by Pancreas; 12-18-2012 at 09:38 PM.
I guess early WOW felt like Blizzard had a Vision® from a core group that really knew their stuff and what they wanted from their game and world. WOW today feels more like decisions are made by committee, with those stats, metrics, and data model's used to influence their next move.
It's designed and engineered brilliantly, and planned smartly. Nobody doubts Blizzard's success, data modeling or retention plans. Likewise, I don't see anyone saying they know how to run WOW better than Blizzard. Except Dumar and Killvek, and they don't count. I do wish Blizzard would hang it all out and try something vastly different. I keep hoping that'll be the case with Titan.
What I am about to write is both entirely off-topic for this forum, yet entirely apropos to the subject about being burnt out on MMOs and PC/console games in general...
I can echo the sentiments of the OP exactly. I was crazy-addicted to WoW for a solid 4-years, and was really competitive with it (was in one of the first ~40 guilds that cleared 40-man Naxx; had an arena rating for ~2100). After I finally burned out, I eagerly switched over to Age of Conan. I almost made it to max level before I realized it was repetitive as fuck and there was ultimately nothing to do in the game. Then Warhammer came, and I realized that game was shit after about a week. I tried to go back to console and other PC games, but these days almost all games are shit. They are too easy, and are designed to last <20 hours. I'm 34 years old now, so my ability to compete in FPS games against 16 year-old Koreans is non-existent, not to mention I'm just not interested in that genre anymore.
After a long time of wandering in the desert, I finally found my salvation: board games. No, not the stupid shit people used to play back in the 1950s (Risk, Monopoly, etc). And not even modern noob games like Settlers of Catan. And certainly not "AmeriTrash" dice-rolling fests like Arkham Horror. Nope, I'm talking about super-strategic eurogames and wargames. The eurogames I like generally feature a lot of resource management and economic engine building (think of something like the Civilization series of PC games, or maybe the more recent XCOM video game). Wargames like Twilight Struggle maintain a level of tension over hours - an experience that I can no longer really get from MMOs or other PC games. Another genre of game that I have yet to get into are called "Living Card Games", which are somewhat like Magic, but with a slightly-less-gay monetary requirement. There are plenty of these out now in genres that would be a hit with this forum (Game of Thrones, cyberpunk, warhammer, Lord of the Rings, Cthulu, etc). So now I've got an entire shelf full of these board games, from a variety of genres, and I wish that I had started sooner, instead of repeatedly dropping $60 to play a shitty Xbox game that lasts 10 hours or less. Or gay-as-AIDS MMOs who couldn't design content or user interfaces worth a damn.
The only major downside to boardgames is finding a group that you'll enjoy playing with. Now you'll actually have to sit across from that neckbeard with Asperger's, instead of having him yell at you through vent from across the country. And you may have a hard time finding people who like playing your favorite kind of game.. This is a problem that is getting better, as we are in the midst of a board-game boom and more normal people are getting into the hobby.
For anyone at all interested in boardgames, there's another post on these forums. And boardgamegeek.com is the place to go for info and rankings.
The fact of the matter is that in the history of raiding population numbers have only gone up until Blizzard just recently decided to undermine the entire process behind it because they weren't getting enough usage fucking percentage points out of a raid zone that took months/years to develop. The experiment has failed, it's time to go back to the proven ways.
"Metrics". Ha. I am completely sick of games designed by a math formula. What happened to interesting itemization? Everything now is just +gooder based on a formula. Farming a dungeon X times to get my gear as decided by the formula. Same with dailies. There's just no soul left. It's not just a WoW problem either.
In all honesty I'd play another game if it had a decent sized population, well tuned encounters and didn't look like utter shit. I'm hoping maybe that will be elder scrolls or EQN. We'll see though, it might just be WoW for another 5 years.
I think the whole "we're just jaded" is a cop out for all the failure mmos out there. Early eq and wow just had a level of difficulty, polish, engaging gameplay and atmosphere that no one has been able to recreate.
There is no tolerable "Required Group Play" MMOs out there. These new "Everything can easily solo" MMOs are fucking garbage.
"I can only play for an hour a week and don't want to fall behind" faggots ruined MMOs. I don't give a fuck if your a single dad/business owner/professional cup stacker/blahblahblah and need something casual, it's about time you found a new hobby instead of buying all these McMMOs (To coin someone else's phrase) and stop destroying the genre. It's retarded I'm stuck playing emus of ancient games.
There is probably some contradictory shit in my post but I really don't care, sick of playing emus and I'm mad as fuk pals.
Last edited by Swagdaddy; 12-18-2012 at 10:35 PM.
I think you are also right in that with those people out of the design, it will go to more folks to just want to create fun. Albeit, theme park fun. Not challenges.
With that said, World of Warcraft (For MMORPG's) is WAY beyond the cash cow of it's life cycle, and it's amazing how Blizzard has been able to keep it from tipping into major decline. We are talking over 8 years now since the release of this game. A majority (Not all) of titles in this genre at this stage of the game would either be put on Life support without updates, or dead.
Blizzard can't even make Diablo right anymore and they invented the goddamn genre, I'm not entirely sure anyone should be optimistic about Titan.
Overall, I agree with you about the difficulty thing, to. Remember that. I don't believe making derp mode was a good idea--I liked it when they used organic difficulty "variables" to make it easier....Like for example, if someone needs to some kiting of death beam 104, then let the raid be able to pick who that is (By standing in certain spots, or whatever) so you can farm these difficult jobs out to your better players and allow your weaker ones to enjoy the same fight, but an easier version. This puts slightly more difficulty on guild/raid leadership and certain players within the raid, so the fight itself can still feel like an achievement (Because those people need to learn it) but it's not frustrating for "bad player that's nice and helpful 101". But overall, I agree lower difficulty on bad players is better--it's always better when poor players can see content, but it's even BETTER when they can see that content WITH good players AND they don't feel like they had to hit the herp derp switch to get through it.
But claiming Blizzard in prescient because of data is...laughable. They obviously aren't. And I'm sure Blizzard has quite a few statisticians that even conduct polling on test groups for them. So, they aren't bad at interpreting numbers, I'm sure of it. But understanding what those numbers lead to in such a subjective environment, with so many variables, is VERY difficulty. And Blizzard even says this, over and over, that despite their metrics, it's impossible to "know" what the issue is--especially given that in all likelihood, the issue is NOT one thing and actually a composite of tons of different things. (and that's saying nothing of how most players are clueless about what they actually "want" in a game anyway.)
Which is another reason why it's always cringe worthy when people tell Sandbox gamers that latest Sandbox game failed because no one wants to play Sandbox games--completely leaving out engineering, balance, world design, server stability, bugs and tons of other things that are needed to make MMO's work. On the same token, it's often absurd that people never conclude that any one thing is a key to Blizzard success. The fact is, this game was far more popular when it required 25 people to raid, and far less of the overall content was accessible--so I could easily make some bullshit coincidental argument about numbers, like you're doing. But I'd be discounting the games age and how difficulty worked on a social level, rather than a game level back then and how bosses per month in new content was much higher (Even if each boss was simpler and less scripted) or fuck even how loot was far more random! (Making the age old argument that people like to gamble.) tons and tons of other issues/mechanics that have come and gone since then that that time period that could also explain the decline in numbers since Vanilla.
And in that same vein, you're just being naive to think it's one thing that made Cata suck, especially "just" difficulty (Which again, I agree with you even.)--when there are other factors, like that Cata had TEN MONTHS between content generation on average, by far the slowest in terms of bosses per time. So I could easily say that people care less about highly complex, 200 mechanic bosses (Like the fire giant) and simply want MORE bosses who are overall simpler and that's the reason why Cata sucked! Or the fact that Cata had no way to gear without jumping right into the hard shit, so you couldn't blunt the curve with proper progression/farming (IE there was no "easy" raid to farm loots to make the next raid easier.)--there were just a fucking ton of issues aside from difficulty . It's not ONE thing.
Last edited by Lithose; 12-18-2012 at 10:55 PM.
What we haven't seen, and what we need to see, is an episodic MMORPG. Asheron's Call taken to the next level. Definitely subscription based, but it needs to have MONTHLY updates to storyline (with REAL lore and intriguing plot)--figure out how to make decisions change the story differently based on each server and you're that much more golden.
Static content just isn't going to cut it anymore. Take people through a journey each month instead of just giving them dailies to grind. Provide storytellers with the tools needed and the medium has so much potential for growth above what it is right now.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)