You can't leave as easily as they can because they have the paper.
Generally speaking, the term "equal pay for equal work" is used in the context of sexual discrimination. But I have an interesting situation -- could this discrimination be applied to other factors, namely, education?
Here's the situation: a couple years back I was promoted to a software engineering position. Previously I was in operations and, of course, the pay is significantly less than what engineers earn. Upon promotion I was given about a 20% pay increase. However, I learned just recently that it is still significantly less than what the other engineers earn (one in particularly was hired shortly before my promotion so it's not a factor of seniority).
What's been striking is that in regards to performance and knowledge I blow most of these guys away. It would be different if I was truly a junior and unable to contribute much. But it's been quite the opposite. I often take lead on projects and, if I had been absent, there would have been either significant delays in getting a release out or the team would have needed to pull in external resources to get shit done.
It was implied that since I do not have an engineering degree that it justifies the lower compensation. However, whether I earned that piece of paper two decades ago is completely irrelevant to my performance. Clearly it has not helped these other guys. So I'm wondering would the argument of "equal pay for equal work" apply in this situation? It's not sexual discrimination, obviously, but educational discrimination.
You can't leave as easily as they can because they have the paper.
That diploma is actually worth something bro.
Regardless whether you can do the same work as them without it, in the universe we live in, no one cares.
Dude next door to me could get an immediate promotion if he could just do algebra well enough to get a BA in literally any field, but he can't, so he doesn't.
Shit sucks but its reality.
They spent two/four years getting an AA/AS/BA/BS in a field, they get a higher rate of pay as a result. Its not discrimination in the sense of unfair discrimination, because its not based on your race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
My suggestion would be to ask your employer if you were to pursue and acquire an online BA in your field, if that would allow you to be raised to parity with others who have that degree. If so, then look into something like a DeVry or Sullivan type online learning fast track degree program where they won't make you grind out a bunch of bullshit classes you don't need like english and shit, so you can get the degree in as short a time as possible.
Or don't. Whatever.
Well, I am pursuing a degree so it's not like I'm just sitting here doing nothing and fuming over it. I mostly just shocked at how incompetent a lot of these degree holders are and the fact that they are earning way more than I. It's a serious injustice. But, as you say, it's the world we live in. It's also the way they perpetuate the ridiculous educational system in our country.
Your coworkers are better at striking a deal than you are, and it's discrimination?
You have a high school education, and it's discrimination because college graduates get paid more than you do?
What planet are you from?
Switch jobs. Your years of experience and projects worked on are more important than some degree at this point. (unless you work in a very specialized field, then you are SOL). Your problem has been solved.
The degree means nothing to your current employer because they know your skill set. It means everything to someone who doesn't know you. So right now you could try and strongarm the current company. If they know they will lose money without you, you'll get your raise. If they think you are not the magic piece. They'll turn you lose and you'll be forced to convince someone else that your have skills not paper.
The only way to get around this is to run your own business.
If only you were a woman, black or openly practiced a non-Christian religion.
How long have you held your current title Jake? And how many years of experience do you have software engineering?
Engineering isn't typically run in a way where "x position gets paid y salary." Instead it's based on a ton of outside factors: what type of degree do they hold, what real world experience do they possess, are they experts in a field, etc. There are also salary negotiations during the hiring process.
From the sounds of it, you were promoted at your job to a development level but expected to be paid the same right off the bat.
If you're not getting paid commensurately, then you need to start fielding other employers. Don't be surprised if not having a degree is a bit of a stumbling block for some places though. There are even certain companies that won't look at a resume without a Masters.
You're a product and your value is determined by who will pay you. If you feel you're being underpaid you have to make your employers believe you are willing and able to work elsewhere for more money.
How do you do this? tough call.
I've been in a coding position for five years. I've been on an actual software engineering team for nearly two now. I also hold a MCP certification (yeah, I know, those don't mean much).
Truthfully, I really didn't "expect" anything. And I certainly wasn't going to make salary demands right off the bat considering my lack of a degree. I was grateful I got the position. The only thing I desired was to gain actual software development experience and in, say, a couple years start looking around. The company I work for is pretty shitty and I don't see much of a future for them.
Again, I was just sorta floored at how mediocre a lot of these devs are. I mean, if this is representative of most software developers then, damn, if I had obtained a CS degree 2 decades ago I have no doubt I'd be working for Apple or Google by this point.
The only way you'll be able to do this (other than getting a degree) is to get a competitor to bid your value up. If your employer says they won't match, you go work for the competitor. Once you have the salary history at that level, you are golden. The problem with this scenario, is that you have to prove to said competitor the same thing that you need to prove to your current employer. That you are every bit the equal of the degreed guys.
Last edited by Lyrical; 03-30-2015 at 11:01 PM.
It is 100% reality, and you are going to have to do something to get your employer's attention, whether it's by being that much better than everyone else, or getting a competitor to bid your value higher.
Sitting around bitching about it won't change it. You can, A) get a degree, B) stick around a few years until they perceive your value is as good, or C) get an offer from a competitor. There aren't much more options than that. If you are looking for some sort of law that applies, I don't think there is one.
Last edited by Lyrical; 03-31-2015 at 12:36 AM.
Keep in mind lyrical prunes trees and knows zero about software development
I think the largest hurdle is some companies (or should I say managers with archaic business attitudes) don't really care about value so much as they do 'old school reasonableness' for pay increases. IE, they will try and get away paying 2-5% increases because 'that was good in my day' (even though it likely wasn't at this point, those people are long retired/dead). They would rather lose a stellar asset and retain their outmoded concept than pay FMV. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.
P.S.: When I'm full staffed, pruning trees nets me in one day what I made in a week at a corporation, I like it just fine.
Last edited by Lyrical; 03-31-2015 at 02:23 AM.
Don't mind wormie she's just some cunty paper pusher in the mortgage industry.
I guess I'm in the really super minority. I never cared what someone else at work was making. I figured I agreed to what I wanted to make for X job when I went to work there regardless of what someone else was making. Never understood it.
As far as my employer knows I have a GED (which I do) and I'm VP of engineering and about 10% of the workers in my department have engineering degrees. I looked at their salary range, apparently some can negotiate better than others. Not my problem. If you don't like the pay when they offer, look elsewhere. So you were happy with X amount, then found someone else made Y, still don't get it.
Depends on the disparity. I can understand why women get so uppity when it's 40%. It is their fault to a point...but why should that stop someone from getting pissed off?
If two people applied for any job with exactly equal qualifications but one guy had a degree and the other didn't, I'd absolutely give the guy with a degree the job unless he was an asshole. It's nothing about sunk cost - I don't know anyone that even thinks about that stuff - it's that this guy potentially has a far greater skillset that he possibly hasn't demonstrated yet. Additionally I know generally what gaps I can expect and how to address them - the other guy I am going on just what he learned on his jobs.
To me that sounds absolutely fair, but I understand in your shoes it does not. But if you think about it logically you'll see it makes sense. The guy with the degree is more valuable.
I dont see how it is a surprise at all. If there was a noticeable difference in experience between the two, then that is different
Shits like this all over the place. Im in automotive engineering and they wont even look at you anymore without a piece of paper. It was not like this in the past. Some of the best engineers I have met were non-degreed, entering the automotive workforce in the 60's as technicians, designers, draftsman Then they worked their way up through the roles. Now the problem is the influx of foreigners which makes things even worse. Dudes from India and Mexico are trying to enter the field but instead of wielding BSME, the have Doctorates and masters from some University of New Dehli.
And I worked with some of them, still do. some are just as good if not better than average joe. But some still suck and have no place being in the industry. Its the same old bullshit wherever I go, 80-20, 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. The rest are there as just "filler".
There's no where to go but up from here, that has to be a positive.
Somewhere around 6-7 years ago at work we were not able to hire anyone in to an Engineering position without an actual engineering degree. It created a lot of situations where people that had been field engineers for 10, 15, 20 years or whatever couldn't leave that position and come back, because they weren't degreed. Kind of ridiculous and seemed like HR nonsense. Even as a new hire almost a decade ago it was obvious that these 'non' engineers knew a metric shit ton more than I did. There were a few situations where one would leave for a sales position or otherwise and would move back. We'd have to work around HR and get them hired in under some random job title that was at the same pay grade but not an 'Engineer' titled position.
Then you have the situation where I was promoted at a much more accelerated rate than a lot of the engineers that came in at the same time and was making significantly less than other people at my same level. They had been through more promotions, salary adjustments, yearly raises, moved through pay terciles, etc... I took it as more an opportunity to move up faster and didn't argue / negotiate the pay discrepancy. Maybe bad on my part but it is in the past. But things like that happen as well.
Lastly in some cases you could actually leave the company and get hired back in at the same position and make appreciably more. The requirements for an internal promotion salary adjustment (or even a yearly merit increase) aren't as competitive as hiring outside talent. And to HR in these situations it appeared as if it was outside, which I guess it was, so they got in at the market rate and not their shitty 4% pay increase for the promotion rate. Seems like a lot more risk but saw it happen quite a few times.
It is an interesting game and you can spend a lot of time trying to min/max it if you're so inclined.
Pussy bitch Draegan sold us out to MMORPG.com
Exodus underway to Rererolled - A Gaming Community
Oh and sorta fuck Tuco too.
In my law firm the associates do 90% of the work on any given case and the partners parachute in and make some decisions based on our work that were blindingly obvious anyway, show up to court and take the credit because they read my work out loud.
Seniority is seniority, thats just how the world is. Old guys own the companies and make the rules, go figure they feel like being old and experienced is worth a lot.
Also degreed guys probably run the company and think degrees are worth a lot, go figure.
Oh and we go around about this in the CompSci thread. Yes, there are a lot of great software developers without degrees and a lot of poor software developers with degrees. The degree, however, is hard proof of your accomplishment. Proving your a good software developer is very difficult. Pointing to a 5 year body of work is nice, but it's difficult for someone to determine your impact on that project.
Every software project I've ever worked on has had people involved with it that were carried. If we all go out and look for jobs who can gain the most credibility in claiming ownership of that project? Generally the people who can talk the talk the best. It's just like MMO gaming. Someone claims to be a big part of a server-first kill of Heroic Lich King, then later you find out that they weren't even in the raid and were only invited to the guild because their brother-in-law was the MT.
Last edited by wormie; 03-31-2015 at 03:24 PM.
I'll repost what I said a bit ago in the CS thread when talking to someone deciding college vs learning to program on their own:
I think the part about only knowing python for UI stimulation is very true. A 4 year degree can be used to get marketability for a much broader set of jobs than your two years of experience can.Originally Posted by Tuco
This is relevant to this thread because someone who has higher marketability outside of their current focus can more easily find a new job with a higher salary. If they can't find a new job for a higher salary, why give them a raise? Why pay more for a product than you need to?
Last edited by Tuco; 03-31-2015 at 05:11 PM.
As to the main point of this thread, it is my understanding that promotions within a company never lead to salary increases similar to those that can be achieved by switching jobs. Corps looking for people outside their organizations have to compete for those people while when promoting from within the levels of competition are perceived to be non existent.
This thread had me thinking last night. How does one accurately self assess what you should be paid? I mean that in the strictest sense, self assess. I know I could go out, do interviews, get offers, and make a judgment from those results. And while that whole process is largely innocuous, it's definitely not without its tradeoffs in terms of time, vacation days, away from family, etc.
I'm largely happy with my job. I'm a bit worried it's a dead-end in terms of career development because it's test related. But, as someone with 10 years of admittedly varied experience, I feel like I should have been making more money at this point.
Literally speaking, you're worth what someone will pay you.
When I graduated and got my first job I thought that number was too high. When I got my second job I thought that number was too low. Right now I feel it's about right.
In a more figurative sense you're worth what you can find someone to pay you without a great deal of luck or effort.
Yeah, I understand that, just wondering if there's a way to come somewhat close to an accurate number without going to through all the recruiting, interviewing, and negotiating bullshit.
I wouldn't trust those either. It's especially bad for my area(Ithaca NY) because it's really small. So I'm ending up having to compare salaries to areas with vastly different levels of costs of living and competition.
And, of course, people willing to report their salaries in an anonymous, yet still public manner strike me as either dumb and/or ego stroking. So the data likely isn't representitive.
How is this complex?
Here let me make a flowchart.
I don't like where I work because I don't make enough. ----> Apply other places. -----> go elsewhere and make more
Beware greener grass syndrome, though.
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