Last edited by Dejoblue; 05-13-2015 at 03:23 AM. Reason: I am a shill
oderint dum metuant
Interesting, I wonder why they don't make a simpler/shorter version for all players, outside of those few lines and answers one can leave when canceling a subscription.
Maybe it's not a good idea, but I'd like to give them some feedback. Not that they would care...
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
Conclusion (that we knew all along): modern Blizzard game design driven by the marketing dept.
It doesn't take 15 surveys of random players to point out the obvious in which this barely scratches the surface on. It isn't the time commitment, it isn't the subscription, it isn't the fun factor or creativity. It's that they release content so fucking slow that you can easily look at what you are getting for your subscription dollar and realize the majority of your money is going towards access to the game and not content to complete. With the money they rake in they should be able to double down on expansions and keep content fresh. And along with that, a decent .1, .2, .3, .4 patch cycle in where one isn't waiting 5 fucking months for a small content addition with a few gimmicks.
It's pretty simple.
CREATE AND DEPLOY CONTENT FASTER THAN THE TIME IT TAKES A TURTLE TO REACH THE MOON.
Hey look at that, I answered their question without having to give away gift cards and conduct pointless surveys/studies.
Next up: Another accessibility meeting.
Simple answer, five years in Azeroth is enough, just as ten years in Norrath was enough. You are going to need to come up with WoW 2.0 before I'll be back.
They are onto something. I'd still play WoW and raid with Noodle but not for $15/mo.
Vanilla WoW was probably the most fun I've ever had playing a MMO. Why couldn't Blizzard just keep following that formula? There are likely numerous answers to that question but I think the Deadly Boss Mobs addon had a significant negative impact on future dungeon and raid design. Blizzard devs knew that any new content they created had to be designed knowing that DBM was going to tell everyone using it step by step how to defeat the content.
Perhaps it takes so long for Blizzard to deliver new content because DBM makes it harder for the devs to devise new innovative boss encounter AI scripts that players will have fun playing?
The bar is raised and raid content needs to rival what Naxx gave us in Vanilla. People wouldn't be happy if MC/BWL/AQ were released these days because even though some bosses had interesting little quirks not all were very interesting fights.
How do you even make raid content anymore? I've been so far removed from it but I'd imagine that it's getting redundant?
If you're not getting positive nettz, you're not trying!
I think- they were kicking around some ideas and decided to run a study to see what actually drives people to quit. You sure as hell aren't getting so comprehensive amount of data without compensating the people somehow. Last thing I want to do after unsubbing is to fill out enough paperwork to make DMV blush, so you can't really scale it to a whole playerbase. I wouldn't be surprised if they were running these periodically, I recall somebody posting something similar on r/leagueoflegends with questions like "would you pay a subscription fee for LoL?"
It's amazing how much has Blizzard done to make the game keep up with competition, but it's still the same game at its core. They are doing their best, but compare it to GW2 who offer much more player friendly systems and more interactive world and the cracks in the beautiful world of Draenor become apparent. On top of it I don't have to wonder whether all the gear I have acquired will be irrelevant in 6 months. I'd also say that with the glacial pace of content release, they sure as hell do their best to not make much of it challenging. Entire expansions are phased out and relegated to achievement whoring, I wonder what % of their current playerbase has seen MoP/Cata/WotLK ... Not to mention that even leveling content is piss easy and you are capped by your movement speed more than anything else, which is terrible. You have cross realm zones, dungeons, are you afraid that your entire playerbase can't make the world look alive because you funnel them into LFR/LFG/Garrisons ?
Transmogrification is a joke, I expect next expansion to launch with fully fledged wardrobe ala GW2, collections and let people chase their pretty pants halfway across the world.
I'm not saying they're high flying but the age of tank&spank is pretty much gone and all bosses have some form of interesting mechanic.
Zero interest in playing any Dance, Dance Revolution game let alone the constant complaining over how retarded their (lack of) movement designs are.
Tanks & spank worked when the people requirements were so high that if you gave bosses these complicated mechanics trying to make 40 retards hurdling the mechanics would be a massively daunting task. Now that mythic raiding is capped at 20 you need more interactive mechanics. Back in WoW vanilla the biggest problem was just finding warm bodies who knew how to press a few buttons every so often.
I liked what they did with Karazhan personally.
The problem isn't the rate of content creation: the problem is that the every expansion guts the previous expansions content and achievements. Which means that all the energy you spent getting that purple item in Vanilla or TBC or X is absolutely pointless as soon as TBC or WotlK or X+1 expansion is released. Blizzard does not understand the importance of a consistent Risk/Reward. Moreover, IIRC, many expansions completely revamp classes, talent trees and the way you play your character.
The rate of content creation would not matter nearly as much if (as in EQ) the previous expansions content was still useful to a greater (the immediate prior expansion's high end content/raid zones) or lesser extent (the further back you go in the expansion timeline). However when the only content that matters is the current expansion then that's all you do and boredom sets in quickly as well as that old why the fuck am I doing this again feeling.
I don't always agree with Tad but he's spot on here. The fact that everything is "current expansion" content makes the game very casual and "jump in" friendly but it really hamstrings the amount of content available and the feeling of character progression. The only reason for old content in WoW right now is all purely cosmetic.
Yea I agree with Tad as well. IMO EQ1 did the best job of handling loot itemization and its resulting impact on raid progression. Because the boss mob was permacamped, it took me forever to acquire a SSoY in the original EQ1. Its been so long since I've played I don't remember all the details but I think that weapon lasted me until the PoP expansion when I was finally able to get my bard epic.
I was newly married with an infant when EQ1 was released so I was never able to do any consistent raiding until PoP came out. While the hardcore raid guilds like FOH were doing PoP progression raising, my casual guild was focusing on getting everyone their class epics. Three expansions after Kunark the Kunark raid content was still relevant and a source of upgrades for a large part of the player base.
I liked WoW but their design decision to give out loot upgrades like candy and make previous expansions irrelevant was not a good idea IMO.
Ulduar was the best for me, but admittedly I stopped raiding actively after that.
Kara, like most raids, had too much trash clearing between bosses. I probably still be raiding but the trash clearing between fights was soul sapping for me. I tried to find ways to tolerate by playing other games during clearing but that just pissed off the guildmates and it lead to the game being less fun.
I also didn't care for "1 person dies and you're fucked" boss encounters. Shit hitting the fan and how you deal with it is what makes fights fun. Hyjal was the pinnacle of boring (stationary 30 minute trash clears YAY) but one of the fights we made a fucked up pull and rather then slog through that bullshit again decided to just fucking go for it despite half the raid being dead. We managed to win and that was quite possibly the most fun I had in that zone.
That's why Heigan was so fun too. You expected people to die and the fun of the fight was figuring out how to deal with that. I quit during Blackwing Lair simply because of the "Welp, one person died...wipe and reset guys!" bullshit. That's what I missed about old WoW and even EQ raids for that matter. People were going to get killed and you just had to find a way to cope with it and still win. The modern DDR just takes all the heart out of raiding.
Did Blizzard recruit you directly for this project or was there a outsourced company doing all the recruiting / scheduling ?
And honestly what made EQ fucking fun was that there weren't spoilers to how to kill bosses. The internet broke that so instead of people actually making strategies, they would just copy people. EQ was also the time where people didn't have raid encounter mods, so people just had to KNOW what to do.
If WoW had content that could auto-tune loot based on the levels of the characters nothing would be stale, but it would break the game. If the encounters could scale with your party's levels, and the drops would scale in stats and damage, I think it would break people's minds. A la Diablo 3 style of Grifts, kinda, but not really.
The issue I think is WoW loot is static, so once you've got it, you don't need to replace it unless something else is better. 99% of the time you can't replace a best in slot until the new expansion. And THAT'S why content gets boring and people quit, but return before expansions.
Or like in TESO where you could go to Cyrodiil and fight in a cave for 49 levels and never leave (because xp was fastest there and scaled gear/xprate to your level?) effectively rendering the rest of the world trivial?
Diablo 3 grifts are just regurgitated content force fed to players in order to keep them on a treadmill. Look at Path of exile maps for a better version of this.
Blizzard is herding sheep.
Last edited by Vitality; 03-12-2015 at 08:10 PM.
I enjoyed the foundry in NWN and the player made missions in CoH. I'd like to see that be a bigger focus. Let the community sort out what's shit and what isn't.
I think that's one of the biggest things Blizzard fucked up with SC2 as well. They fucked the mapmaking scene hardcore and focused on ladder when if you look at what made BW so popular it was the UMS. iCCup was barely a blip on the radar for 99% of people. Yet everybody spent all day doing BGH, evolves, and so forth.
Can you imagine the sort of monster WoW would be if players could make their own content? Sure 99% of it would be utter shit filled with dick tentacles and whatnot but then every so often you get DOTA or Tower Defense.
My issue with MMO's of late is that every single thing you do is designed and scripted to the max. They can overlay player foot steps from place to place and its almost all straight lines. They can probably predict within a few mobs exactly what monsters you will attack and kill as you progress, when that will happen and even the TTK. I'm not saying all of that is bad but when your entire game is nothing but a series of lines to generic hubs you lose something.
I wish things were not so sterile, so planned and boring. The +1 gear, lazy race development, lack of true options, the lack of creativity in world POI's and the general lack of off the beaten path content is just so boring. Not too mention over done.
Frankly these companies need to put this sterile, over balanced and over tuned world on the back burner and get back to making cool zones with cool shit to kill that can drop awesome loot. Stop trying to script our motions through the world, give us the world to explore and make it our own. Give us some really good world factions (EQ) that actually mean something other than in some level 50 zone. I long for some real starting options with meaning.
Hopefully the sand box trend of late takes off and we see more games focus on exploring awesome worlds, without levels and make acquisition of gear and abilities the focus. Shit, I'm a huge PVP fan but I think the genre is due for a PVE game. Same on the other end, give us a PvP game without the prerequisite bullshit 50 level PVE tutorial.
Last edited by Kedwyn; 03-12-2015 at 08:56 PM.
Someone get on the phone with Blizzard world HQ, stat! Maybe they will take a break from counting their tens of millions in monthly sub revenue to read what's wrong with their business/content/itemization model.
Wanna make an actual next gen MMO?
afgadfg afga dfg gaf gf
Last edited by Dejoblue; 08-10-2016 at 05:40 AM. Reason: Just a shill
Last edited by an accordion; 03-12-2015 at 11:09 PM.
an understated ensemble that puts the "b" in subtle
We need more death touches, void zones, server disconnects and perfect immortal run achievements. Because all of that is not only awesome but super awesome when combined together.
afgadfg afga dfg gaf gf
Last edited by Dejoblue; 08-10-2016 at 05:40 AM.
I'm posting the neg I got for a post I made in this thread, because I had to share the lulz. You can't make this shit up.
glad you're happy with what is in the market. blizzard is looking for feedback for a reason. unlike other success stories in the genre they want their sophomore game to be something other than a copy of what is our there
Consider Magic the Gathering. 20 years after, people remember the most broken of cards, Black Lotus. It was a huge gameplay mistake, and quickly limited, retired, then banned from "standard play". Yet it's the card that people know, hunt, relentlessly obsess over.
If you don't make a mistake, no one is going to remember your successes (ok, I'm overgeneralizing here). And yet, you have people who keep saying that procedural is bad, because it may lead to broken stuff. But the broken stuff is what is going to make that game stand out.
As long as you have a plan for the players to move on after the stuff breaks, that is.
Ultimately devs undererstimate the requirements (CPU and manpower) to make this work--and the tuning required. For a brief history of failures at this:
1. Horizons (now Istaria), where the devs tried to create an ongoing fight players vs. NPC undead/demons ("Blight") with territory control, dynamic attacks and all that. The blight would curse the conquered territory, uninhabitable/unusable. They also tried to make the world change dynamically (as in: geometry), but the automated system proved to be too network and server intensive.
2. Wish (Add "Mutable Realms" to your google), where a live quest and "living story" GM team were to handle the ongoing world events, development and ultimately balance. Didn't work, and hey canceled after Beta 2.0 with very few words.
The problem with Wish was that if you really want to have a dynamic world like that it needs to be single server/shard - and also no instancing (at least not in the world as such). But you also need to develop content to keep the game interesting/enganging. But you can't push the same content to differents shards: they may have developed into completely different directions. Example: On one server the players successfully defended an outpost, in the other they failed and now the local orc leader made the ruins his base of operations. You want your players to have the feeling that ultimately THEY shape the world they play in, not the developers.
This brings us to the next problem: The world has to accomodate all the players, so it has to be big enough. Wish probably didn't pan out because they planned for around 30k players (if I remember correctly). As such they would all have to pay at least $50/month for the required GM team. That would've never worked long-term.
So, in the end we need better AI. But this does not happen because it's pretty much unexplored teorritory in MMOs, as in "no one did this successfully to copy it from", and no one wants to finance an added huge risk like that in addition to the aleady gigantic costs to develop an MMO.
Your best bet at this point is to pray for the singularity to come. Maybe it's somewhat benevolent and we get a form of the matrix or something like that.
Now every WoW-clone and of course the original, makes you keybind something between 30 and 40 hotkeys (post culling). They are not all high priority buttons, thankfully or you'd have EQ2, but they are still there.
On top of this, they strayed away from "rotations" and used priority lists, so your list of things to do has a more varied pattern.
Then you have to look at their latest encounter design and the 4 different levels of difficulty to see how fucked up raid encounters are these days: just count the warnings from GTFO or DBM.
I thought that raids were cool because they felt epic (as an EQ noob being vaporized by lady Vox), then I appreciated a few gimmicks thrown in to keep people paying attention instead of watching TV (Molten Core), from there on it went (imo) downhill from a certain point of view: you no longer could afford dead weights in a raid, you needed very good healers working endlessly around stopcasting or the 5s rule, because you needed a fuckton more dps to pass some checks (Vael) or a coordinated group with able kiters (Razorgore). Up to and including LK, all fights required little more than positional awareness and it was good, because you could afford to fuckup and still recover (healers could make up for a lot of small mistakes and some big ones).
Nowadays if you do a fight like Emperor Mar'gok, you understand how crazy can a fight can become and of course the only way to have below average players doing it, is if every mistake they make is ignorable (LFR). In BRF there are already a couple bosses were the raid wipes in LFR difficulty and I suspect they could nerf it down even more.
Personally I'm done with WoD, got two months of fun and one of not so much fun. I don't like modern raiding, for me LK had the correct balance of good and bad and allowed people like me to play with less performing players without getting frustrated and advancing at a decent rate. We completed all normal mode raid tiers in LK with a super casual guild of 10 raiders, 2 or 3 of them being *quite* below average, playing one night per week, but we had fun and shit died relatively quickly.
In WoD I joined a similar guild (1/week) and in normal mode we couldn't kill shit because of underperformers.
Highmaul: Ko'ragh died twice, probably by mistake (or boredom). Mar'gok never died, not even once, I don't think we ever reached the last phase with orbs.
BRF: we hit hard enrage 3 times on Beastlord (I was as a brewmaster 2nd on the parse), before killing him one week later, we were 3/10 (Gruul, Darmak, Hans Franz) and couldn't kill Oregorger for both dps and mechanics. So yeah, some players were not good enough.
I could scout for a different place, but the guys are nice and I didn't want to leave them screwed, so once a window of opportunity opened (alliance with another guild that covered my tank slot) I decided to quit, because I had little to no fun. I prefer easy raids and carrying friends to dance dance revolution competitions and wipefests.
I'd say to Blizzard: first no enrage timers in normal mode, second, pick a random encounter mechanic and remove it and third... make that shit 1-groupable. Some people just don't like to raid. Leave heroic for real raiders and mythic for crazies.
6.1 was a fucking joke: let's consider BRF part of the patch, so raiders were happy. Everyone else got... a selfie camera and twitter implementation. What the fuck? Unless you consider playing facebook games in your garrison part of an MMO. As Mr Creed said: they are just pissing money away because they can.
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
So if I understand this correctly you're complaining that Normal is too hard, but LFR is too easy?
Do you want them to make LFR difficulty available to guild groups with a flex system of group numbers?
I never found normal very difficult. The problem is there are so many people out there who are very, very bad at even simple video games. With flexible raiding sizes now if you aren't pulling your weight you are now negatively impacting the raid in a very real way. With static sizes even if someone sucked it was still better than that player not being there at all (sans some mechanics where if you dropped them it would be a net gain.) Now with flexible sizes the reality is removing that player is a huge net gain. But walking that social line is somewhat awkward.
In LK, I remember ICC, but it was the same in Ulduar, I had a warrior and a warlock that were severely limited in dps capacity, yet we never had an issue progressing for 2 main reasons: enrage timers were a lot less tight and 1 or 2 deaths didn't mean a wipe was occuring so regularly.
From a certain point of view, enrage timers are just stupid: if a guild wants to bring two tanks, 2 dps and 6 healers, why forbid them? Who the fuck really cares?
So yeah, for several guilds, normal is already too tough, because of the 20% or 30% of the raid that isn't up to par. LFR is a joke, because you can ignore almost all mechanics (almost). Maybe 1 step back (MoP LFR tuning) with a flexible raid size would be good for certain guilds. Most good guilds would skip normal and go to heroic for a challenge and better gear.
LFR fixed at 30 with random people is for guildless people or those that just can't commit to any kind of schedule, not even once a week. It's okay that it exists, but as I said, I would tune it a bit more like in MoP - SoO (aka, can't fully ignore mechanics, but it's still fairly easy).
Flexible adds HP to a boss for each member, so some people are actually best left at home (enrage timers), this is totally wrong from a social perspective, at least at the lowest difficulty levels. That's all I'm saying.
TL,DR: Make me carry my friends to victory, who gives a fuck but us in the end? Transitioning to heroic is not a requirement.
EDIT: also every old school player has memories of the hero of the day that saved the raid by doing something cool, such as kiting the boss while others ressed the raid (Everquest), why isn't possible anymore to do such feats? Aren't these games made so that we feel like heroes from time to time? What they (Blizzard) made over ten years is changing this genre and making it more like a lobby game: aside from the concurrent amount of users on a fight (and the existance of an underutilized open world), there is little difference between wow and diablo nowadays. Wow is technically awesome, but it lost its soul over the years.
Last edited by Miele; 03-13-2015 at 03:57 PM.
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
Catering to the lowest common denominator has been the method WoW has used to sacrifice quality for quantity. LFR is no exception.
As far as having that "raid hero" feel, to my more recent memory FFXIV Turns 1 through 4 were saveable by one person (I personally saved turn 2 multiple times).
I can understand your point in that if you want to play with a certain group, good or bad, you want to see all the content. But at the same time, there is a cutoff where you go "Well, these people are so bad that they can't kill one of the 3 intro bosses to a raid zone" and the content just isn't designed for them.
I think Ulduar and ICC were much different as there weren't quite as many mechanics as we're seeing now.
I honestly believe that LFR is designed for the people in your group you're referring to. They could flex it and introduce it to guilds, but I feel like the purpose would be defeated here.
As for heroes, I don't believe we should have a single person able to save the raid by doing some crazy mechanics. Maybe for a couple seconds or something, but not like previously in history.
I think the only Enrage I ever saw were Butcher and Twins. Butcher being obvious because it's quick enrage is the mechanic to make it a DPS check. The twins because you can heal their minimal damage pretty easily if you dance quakes. So you could basically fight them for hours as long as your healers and tanks don't take optional damage.
10m enrage iirc. I hit it once in LFR. It was brutal.
I still remember this one warrior Valory getting one shot by Broodlord's Mortal Strike EVERY single clear. It literally became a tradition. Always had to have the Valory sacrifice for it to be a good night...anytime it didn't happen we'd get shit loot.
I think the worst part about WoD is that when you clear Normal BRF, you don't get to go to progress to a new, more difficult raid, you get to do BRF again only harder. Instead of 4 different modes for the same raid, why not spend a little more money and release 3 cool tiered raids?
Release - 3 tiered raids, LFR only for tier 1
1st patch - 4th tier raid, LFR for tier 1/2
2nd patch - 5th tier raid, LFT for tier 1/2/3
3rd patch - 6th tier raid, LFR for all tiers
Rinse and repeat
Or you could just go straight to heroic and not deal with normals. The only reason the majority of people even get to raid is because they put those easy modes in for you to progress at a pace where you eventually over gear it.
Originally Posted by Noodleface
And DBM (or Bigwigs?) was always telling us we'd shaved 20 to 40s on all fights.
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