Math is beautiful and artistic and awesome. Tad is ruining it for me FU Tad.
Mainly a thread to contain Tad's retardation, but feel free to discuss the state of public and higher education.
Slide rules for all!
Math is beautiful and artistic and awesome. Tad is ruining it for me FU Tad.
Teenage wasteland. Teenage wasteland.
THEY'RE ALL WASTED
I was discussing this very topic while we were waiting for a department meeting to start today, and had some people talking about how impossible it is to actually fail students in some high schools. The teachers get put under pressure to pass people, that he "is a good kid" and "isn't going to be an engineer anyway". One anecdotal story was given of a circumstance like this, where after the teacher failed the student, the principal passed the student anyway.
I don't know, I've never taught high school. All I know is, getting college students that graduated high school yet can't simplify fractions is mindblowing. However, I can't see how forcing them to use sliderules would help the matter at all. These students are getting pushed through apparantly regardless of what they do.
what about log tables? If youre gonna bring back slide rules you gonna bring those back too.
wait didnt see you mentioned them lol
Last edited by Big Phoenix; 10-23-2014 at 07:16 PM.
It lets them know to stop wasting people's time and go learn a trade.
The world needs janitors too.
I am not quite sure what a slide rule does or how it is used, but is it not a piece of technology designed to help with maths? That's what a calculator is anyway. If something is too complex to be done mentally then why not use the best piece of technology for the job?
In my opinion the actual problem is culture is some high schools. In some schools the normal thing is to maintain an environment that allows people to learn. In other schools the normal thing to do is to be disruptive and not care about learning.
Why do you need to learn? Everyone has tech far beyond the wildest dreams of a sci fi writer 50 years ago.
How would failing them help them or society?
Because if the threat of failure actually existed some of the kids who limp along as basically a body in the room might actually work harder and learn what they are supposed to and the value of everyone elses high school diplomas wouldn't be total dogshit because instead of knowing everyone with a pulse has one employers might look at someone who finished high school as someone who actually has some basic knowledge instead of just being an indicator that you showed up (most of the time) and sat in a room for 4 years.
Izo is a fan of whatever side of the argument allows him to be a contrarian troll the most.
Thats the problem with my oldest kid, 12 yrs old. 7th grade now, and hes smart, he just does not give a shit #based. Compare that to my younger one its like day and night. Kid whips out his homework every night like a champ and actually gives a shit and takes pride in it.
I have a hard time convincing the older one to give a shit. Its a never ending battle. The thing is, I know it sucks to say this but hes the smarter one. And thats the frustrating part of all this.
Shit I'd rather school guidance councilors (those still exist right?) at least bring up trade schools rather than force "go to college" down every kid's throat. I'd take a journeyman electrician over some kid who dropped 60k on an art degree.
The vast majority of people who can work hard and focus on a task can make it through college, and almost no one who can't do those things is going to be successful in any arena.
Originally Posted by Noodleface
Originally Posted by Noodleface
95% of colleges are completely money-driven and don't require much proof-of-knowledge for an individual to graduate.
being a college graduate, if anything, implies that you showed up enough.
with that said i have 2 bachelors degrees, a masters, and my certification series 6 63 and 7.
It takes a good 15-20 minutes to get an honest shave that doesn't involve bodily harm, the maintenance is silly intense, stropping, and rehoning, and eventually you may have to get the blade resharpened by a professional or buy a whole new one. Yeah you'll get an amazing experience, if you want your entire morning to revolve around a shave that could be over in 5 minutes. The first thing I don't want to do in the morning is to lather up and try to precision guide a literal!!! razor blade against my face. Saftey Razor et al. sure but a Straight Razor, I'd only recommend if you've got the adept handling of a professional Barber.
My wife had a student last year in high school that literally did NOTHING. As hard as she tried this shithead kid wouldn't do any work in class including taking and finishing tests. The kid had a 0 average and my wife refused to pass him. Did the kid do work in the other classes? Nope. The teachers just gave him a barely passing grade. Then the principal got on her about passing him. Clearly someone was on his ass about it but thankfully the superintendent of the school backed my wife and the little fuck failed her class.
She teaches special ed reading. She gives them fucking picture books to use because many aren't even on a 3rd or 4th grade reading level. You really have to TRY to fail her class and this kid did it with flying colors.
Education is not seen as the opportunity it once was. It took a long time for the K-12 system to become the norm, and generations lived and worked without any formal education. Once something goes from novelty to necessity, it often loses the sense of appreciation people once had for it.
Education used to be about trying to create literate, mathematically competent citizens who would help society maximize it's potential. Now it is all about minimums. The minimum number of students that need to pass the standardized tests, the minimum amount that can be spent on supplies, payrolls, and maintenance. The minimum amount of instruction that can be provided to a student and still qualify for covering a subject.
Public education is failing at basic education because the original goal, of creating informed citizens is no longer a goal. Continuing to provide state day care for the country's workforce so parents can produce is really the primary reason these schools exist now. Anything more than that is gravy.
Also, because the public school system exists, many people assume that they are free from their responsibility to educate their own children. Having parents who are involved in their own child's growth and development, academically, makes a huge difference. But given the declining ratio of wages to living costs, and the increase in split homes, the chances that kids will have parents with the time and inclination to teach them outside of school dwindles rapidly.
And finally, the style and content of the education is turning into mindless crap. Tons of kids get labeled with learning disabilities just to pad the budget and make up for reduced funding. I bet half those kids would do demonstrably better if they were forced to come to the table to learn and were not getting spoon fed or catered to.
Education is a completely internal process. The only person on the planet that has ultimate control over what someone learns is the person who is learning. They can be shown, and instructed and forced to listen to lectures, but unless they take on the responsibility of mastering what they are experiencing and have a desire to internalize it... the best and worst teaching techniques will have the same effect. If students were made aware of how fortunate they were to get this opportunity, and if the quality of the education was worthy of that appreciation, maybe they would take it more seriously.
So yeah, colors and shapes and letters and numerals are all important, but a deep rooted sense of personal responsibility is the absolute key to a successful education. Without that everything else is just noise.
Pfffft, 15-20min, easy there tiger. I can see being scared of the big mean blade the first few times you use the thing, but after a while it's no big deal. Doesn't take me any longer to straight shave than to shave with a regular razor. I use canned cream (or shaving oil when I work outdoor in frigid weather), so I don't spent half the day building up a lather, which I agree is a complete waste of time. Stropping takes 30sec and the shave itself is quickly done too once you get the hang of it; I get like one fourth of my entire face in one movement.
It's not for everyone, I'll agree, shaky hands better forget about the idea. The shave itself isn't really any better than any decent shaving tool out there and it's tricky to maintain the blade. So there might be some unwarranted hype to it, fair enough. Still tho, no more buying of blades and personally it's a lot easier on my skin, I've always had issues with ingrown hair and straight shaving solved that issue entirely. There's so many shaving options for men, it's a matter to pick the one that works best for yourself, others might not seem that great to you, but they might just be the right pick for someone else. Electric shavers all kind of horrible for me but I won't go into a rant about their evils, they do work great for some dudes.
I mean bravo that you've got the steady hand and stroke down to a Science--and I did enjoy the fragrant manley Lathers that you could buy for your badger hair brush--but there's a reason the Straight Razor fell out of favor, it's not a simple in and out affair, it's a dedicated skill set that you've got to pick up on.
Last edited by Voyce; 10-23-2014 at 11:14 PM.
You can get a badger hair brush and lather with your Gillette pro glide with 17 blades too
As I said, I don't lather soap, use a brush or any of that nonsense. I spread foam on my face like everybody else and for real, start to finish it's less than a 5min ordeal, I do that shit every single morning, I'm military, so it's not like I can skip a day. It's a daunting skill to learn because it's a sharp live blade, but once you get the hang of it, it's quick as anything else.
Anyway, I think we both spoke our mind and obviously this isn't going anywhere. Y'all can resume discussing fusion and/or slide rules.
Last edited by Lejina; 10-23-2014 at 11:27 PM.
A Cartridge based Razor is to a Straight Razor,
as a Calculator/Computer is to a Slider Rule,
as a Nuclear Fission/Nuclear Fusion Reactor is to a Natural Gas based Power Plant?
After following the slide rule thread I am confused about that analogy.
School is just a glorified free babysitting service anyway. Who cares
My Mother is a PhD professor and it astounds me the hoops "educators" will create for themselves to jump through to prove their value to society and validate their existence. I'm amazed there is still a profession for teachers since the development of the printing press, muchless the internet (at the BA level). Give me your test, if I meet the knowledge criteria, who cares how often I've shown up for class or how much I participate.
I took an online math course once, for all the proff was concerned there could have been 5,000 kids in the class and it would have had no effect on the teacher's work load. All they did was open up assignments at a certain time, which the software graded. Why am I paying for this again? Oh yeah, they control the degrees.
For profit education ftw.
When I was an engineer I kept a slide rule on my desk. I had no idea how to use it, but I thought it would make people think I was smart.
I was briefly dating a girl who was a high school guidance counselor in one of the largest high schools in town. The stories that she would tell about the rush in the two weeks before graduation to lump as many kids into special classes where they could quickly make up for doing nothing all year and just skirt by into the graduating class was a big eye opener to how things are done now in junior high and high school.
I think that the big problem that has already been presented and will be restated over and over again in the thread is that when the end goal of hard work becomes accessible to everyone of all work ethics and intelligence levels that end goal loses its value and purpose. Junior high prepares you for multiple different classes a day and the scheduling required to succeed in that environment; high school teaches you the basic skills that you need to know for college and you use everything that you learned in junior high to achieve those; college prepares you for seriously working towards a specific field and everything that you've learned before is aggregate to that.
We're passing through just about the tenth group of kids that went through earlier education with everyone passes as the school's goal and we've seen a stark diminishing return in how even a decent hard sciences bs degree is viewed. The "everyone goes to college" mentality has thrown an insurmountable wrench into a system that used to be able to effectively base difficulty on how long you were intending to stay in the educational system and how much money you wanted to come out of that system making.
The result of this mentality has also lead to people prospering who got out of the system and took less glamorous career paths than we are lead to believe that we all deserve. My brother is a financial adviser up in Scottsdale and he says that his biggest clients are electricians and plumbers. It's a strange mantra to hammer into kids' heads that they have to get a degree or they'll end up cleaning up people's shit to then have the degree that you went to school for being near worthless while the guy that maintains the pipes that carry the shit making a million dollars a year and having no idea how to spend all of his money. It seems that we've just managed to flip the board around now in that, in my father's time, you either worked really hard and payed your way through school and jumped through all of the hoops to finish a degree or you decide on a less intensive path and pick up a trade to now where school requires minimal effort and the real work comes from building your own thing.
I feel like a surly fucking conservative at the notion (I feel like a surly fucking conservative for most of what I wrote) that everyone should have a good education but everyone is definitely not college material and the more that we try to make that so the harder we're hitting our actual college material kids.
I had 2 teachers in high school whose classes I took, Chemistry, Physics, Philosophy and World War II (history elective) prepare me for college. All the others were jokes, including AP Calc. Fuck the eight of us in that class worked together on tests.
Chemistry and Physics were both AP courses (weighted higher) but my teacher refused to teach the AP curriculum for either of those subjects, so the AP test couldn't be taken for college credit. Thank god for those two classes, they really prepared me for college. My first 2 semesters, the intro chemistry courses (prereqs for all bio/chem/phys majors) I took weren't as difficult as my high school one. Funny thing is, that high school teacher (taught the A, Honors and AP Physics and Chemistry courses) was universally hated by the whole student body and all the other teachers (small suburban school of ~600 total) besides the one who taught philo and history electives. These two were the only teachers who gave a fuck about challenging and preparing the intelligent students.
What I am getting at is fuck our entire public education system, from the bottom to the top. The majority of teachers are god damn morons now. You know what was the hardest school to get into at the university I went to? The school of education. Why? The GPA's of everyone in it were so fucking inflated from classes that were absolute jokes. A high school friend of mine in the school was fretting over cutting out decorations for a classroom setup while I was trying to remember all the amino acids and their characteristics for my first biochem exam.
It is literally a hoop you jump through because someone tells you to jump through a hoop. It has no impact on your life afterwards (unless you fail it) and in 99.99% of cases you will never use it.
Physicists, mathematicians, and engineers need not apply; their shit might actually include something beyond geometry on average. But for literally everyone else, it is borderline useless.
No, the .0000001% of people that configure artillery ranges (yes, I've played the game on my Apple IIe) and have put them into a program need to know that. The other 99% of the military that uses that program has literally zero fucks to give about that unless it fails. Which, given modern hardware, they have no reason to believe will do so unless the one-two guys doing that computation were wrong. So again, 99.99% have no reason to know that information.
Yes, we teach -every- student with college plans shit they don't need to know in order to graduate (and base our graduation requirements on knowing that shit that doesn't matter) so that .01 or .02% of the population can actually move forward.
Better idea? Have the kids that want to and are adept at math coming up make their own decision and offer a class for that. There really shouldn't be 10+ calculus 1 classes at any college in the world. It is a hoop for the sake of being a hoop; not for any actual benefit.
Where the fuck are you pulling your %.01 numbers dude? Oh that's right, out of your ass. Just looking at engineers alone, they make up 5% of the workforce.
I'm a fucking biologist and I need a working knowledge of logs and stats. I don't ever use a unit circle, but I'm glad I had to learn it, because, you know, learning the maths helps train your brain to think logically.
Tad's certainly right in that everyone in high school should be good up to pre-calc. And your assertion that no one but engineers should have to take a Calc 1 class is just another step down the road to Retardville. I guess by your logic history majors should never have to take a biology class and science majors should never take a history class. Obviously with the recent ebola panic, we would be better off if more people had a working knowledge of basic biological principles, but not in Rezz's world.
To be fair, the math thing does get pushed on a lot of people that don't really need it. There's no reason (other than preserving earning power by reducing the number of graduates) for, say, Comp Sci majors to have to take four semesters of calc and DiffEQ to graduate.
Those who think we should require slide rules for teaching math and avoid the use of calculators until much later, what are your math credentials and how do you use math in your career?
Re: Calculus for CompSci. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of computer scientists to know calculus, but now that I'm developing more in my career as a roboticist I'm really glad I learned calculus.
Bunch of grumpy old fucks bitching about "kids these days" just like every generation before.
edit: woke up grumpy (and old) due to midterms.
Math is amazing, but after a certain point unless you are second guessing everything that has come before constantly it starts to become useless knowledge. The only people who really need to know higher levels of math beyond geometry are people in hard sciences and math degrees, and even then only a small portion of them will really use that higher level math.
1.6m engineering jobs in the US out of 3.5m doesn't put it quite at .1, closer to .5 on a good day. My apologies for grossly understating how many people actually use anything from calculus. But it could be 10% and still wouldn't justify the requirement of it in our education system for non-related degrees, as even 10% of the workforce still means 9/10 people are learning useless (to them) knowledge. Our education system sucks.
Last edited by Rezz; 10-24-2014 at 03:10 PM.
I'm an engineer and I don't use calculus.. i barely use addition. Mostly just doing maths on hex/binary.
Our education system isn't nearly as bad as you would think from what is said about it, but it's also not nearly as good as it could be.
Something about people making 40-60k a year in a profession where you can regurgitate the same learning material every year is not respectable to me. I still look back and scoff at the teachers who treated me like an idiot and enjoy the fact I'm already making 20% more than they can ever possibly attain even with 20 years in education and a Masters or Doctorate. It's my opinion that 99% of teachers don't give two fucks about teaching or the kids, but rather got some arts degree and realized "Oh shit, all I can do is teach!"
Not worth it! Go math.
Last edited by Rezz; 10-24-2014 at 05:50 PM.
Teachers get paid shit and are looked down upon in the last few decades. Who do you think is going to acquire a masters degree, or equivalent certificates, and then go work for piss poor pay and lack of respect? Only fuckers who fail thats who. Teachers need to be paid more to attract better candidates. With higher pay, better hiring standards can come as well. As things stand now, only those who cant cut it in any other field are willing to subject themselves to k-12 teaching.
unsure what the internet did to my tone there, but i was 100% agreeing with you
indeed we are.
you know why though... it's not that the problem is unfixable. The reason is really contributive to the major edu problem - systemic failure and unwillingness to change. Too many people are getting paid for failure
The US education problem starts at home and everything between when the kid wakes up to go to school to at what age they should even BE IN school is problematic. We haven't even gotten to the quality of the material and teachers.
I gotta tell you the truth here, Im an engineer and I dont use higher math, we have fucking programs to do it for us now. The old school dudes in my field used slide rules to figure out the failure of a particular material under load and stress and all that BS, Ive even met some of them back in the 90s when I entered the field as a noob. But now? I input shit into a program, run a stress analysis and it spits out the results. Rudimentary FEA is a part of any good cad software these days. (Disclaimer: This is for the field that I work in which is product development in automotive. Im sure there are plenty of engineering fields that require tons of math)
But I do believe that math is definitely necessary to teach people how to problem solve. Maybe not up to calculus level for run of the mill schleps, but definitely you need math in your life. Fuck, math is the basis for anything science/mechanical related.
But the core of the problem IMO is that teachers need to learn how to teach. How to reach out to kids and make shit fun and interesting, to inspire. Get kids excited to do it. Its one thing to follow a syllabus, assign work, tests and grade them, but its another to actually inspire people to learn themselves and become interested in the subject at hand. You could have a PhD in the subject, know every facet of it but fail as a teacher. Im sure many of you can remember the teacher that actually made you excited and interested about something. But man are those types of teachers rare.
Fuck, having two kids now Ive met teachers that literally disliked kids. How can you be a teacher and hate to be around kids? Its mind boggling.
Last edited by mkopec; 10-24-2014 at 06:37 PM.
Oh the parents are at fault as well, dont get me wrong Izo. The blame can get spread both ways. I was strictly speaking from a teaching institution point of view tough. But im not a good teacher I can admit this. I can sit down with my kid and try to explain something but I cannot come across well enough and its frustrating. This coupled with the new fangled math these people are teaching kids these days, its like I have to relearn all that shit myself again.
But blaming the parents entirely is being shortsighted as well.
Last edited by mkopec; 10-24-2014 at 06:53 PM.
Anyways, mkopec touched on something I was thinking about since I heard an NPR piece last night about the limits of human intuition. During the segment, they were talking about how computers are handling more and more of the cutting edge computations, to the point where people are just stumped by the answers they are receiving, with no context or understanding of them. Like they used this one program to analyze the interactions of proteins within an amoeba. The program found all of these correlations and patterns, and the researches were stumped as to how to make sense of any of it due to the complexity. So they create other programs to try and find the answers to the answers, which totally sounds like hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy to me.
Anyways, my question is, when does humanity just stop trying to keep up altogether? When do we essentially become so removed from our own discoveries that we are forced to rely on computational analysis to understand our world for us, and then present it in a more manageable format. Like with pretty colors and shit. So we end up basically creating these artificial oracles and then believe the answers they give us on faith.
I mean for many people that point has already arrived. I think with the trends in education coupled with the rate of advances in the sciences, the % of the population that will actually know what is going on behind the scenes is going to approach your 0.000000001% mark; With or without slide rules.
Last edited by Pancreas; 10-24-2014 at 07:03 PM.
Well to tell you the truth, the analysis we perform during the product design life cycle only gets us within roughly 20% of the target. We still rely on real world testing for the final result. And most of our data that we have compiled over the years is that we can only get as close as 20% compared to real world testing results. Its more of a guide for us so that we are not off by 80% at the end. But what it does do is it essentially cuts out the entire prototype phase since its all done digitally now. Before we would have to create prototype tools, prototype parts and then test them to see if we were close. Now we can rougly cut out 2 yrs of this prototype phase. Not to mention the costs associated with prototype tools.This is why we can get a brand new vehicle out in 2 yrs. From concept to 1st build.
But I get what you are saying, Pancreas. Im sure the higher sciences are having problems with this exact thing you mention. LOL, making up models to predict what other models do?
There is no one problem.
Parents suck and don't parent. Many don't take an interest in their kids and are so busy working, putting junior in day care and spending a whopping 3 or 4 hours with them (in between cooking dinner, cleaning up and relaxing) that their kids are on auto pilot. Many parents idea of parenting is "Did you do your homework" and that is just about it. I guess they are too busy paying off their average of 15k in credit card debt, plus other installment loans, equity loans etc while complaining how everyone is fucking them and are too busy to be a parent. Many parents say "its the school's job to teach" and leave everything on their door step while taking nearly zero interest in their child's development.
I don't really blame teachers. Most of them are there because they want to teach and end up falling prey to a shitty system. Administrators have ruined the teaching system by all but removing discipline in the classes, forcing teachers to pass students that have no business being passed and having lesson plans being forced in the class room by people that don't teach. The entire system has gotten so bloated and convoluted that it needs to be torn down.
Personally, I think every child should get exposed to the typical education (reading, math, language etc) but should also be exposed to shop / reality classes as well. What better way to show kids that what they are learning is not only practical but will be used in regular life? Classes should focus on practical applications as much as just learning the equation or theory. Boys and girls should be equally exposed to this stuff and get some practical teaching and it would help the kids blow off some energy and doing something different besides sitting at a desk and looking at a person in front of a chalk board blah blah blah all day.
As they get older, high school age, you can then start to move kids to a more focused environment depending on what they excel at or what parents want to push them towards.
Last edited by Kedwyn; 10-24-2014 at 09:26 PM.
1. How to read
2. Languages: English & Spanish ONLY
3. Mathematics up until Geometry & Algebra
When it comes to traditional high school - fuck all of it.
The only kids I want learning chemistry, calculus and other "advanced" traditional courses are those that were way above proficient with the above referenced early childhood education. Those who don't qualify go to trade schools.
Basic Engineering etc...
Why waste the school's time and kid's time with the other kids who couldn't grasp foundational math? These people will be more suited for other trades.
Analog clocks provide a more intuitive sense of time and in particular your place in time in that day.
Those biologists freaking out about their failure to understand protein patterns in amoeba appear to have no intuitive sense of math: math savants like Gauss are AFAIK born with an intuitive sense of numbers. The rest of us need to develop it. There are lots of things that help us - counting blocks as kids, I remember a visual representation of a normal distribution created using Ping-Pong balls dropped through a very large Galton Board, and of course graphs of equations are necessary for most people to understand Algebra.
This of course brings us back to slide rules - which was, and should be again, an important tool for helping us non-savants develop mathematical intuition. In addition to forcing you to learn orders of magnitude and intuitively teaching logs, powers, roots and radicals - when you use it, it, like the Analog clock, not only shows you answer, it also shows all the numbers that are not the answer - so you get to see the answer in context.
Enrico Fermi was one of the more famous slide rule users, by all accounts many of the "Fermi Questions" including the Fermi Paradox were worked out very quickly by him with his Duplex slide rule. Will looking up Fermi I ended up here on the existential risk site.
And I can state the reason why everyone needs to learn math up to pre-calculus and including statistics/probability is that otherwise we're fucked because inummeracy leads people to not evaluate risks properly. A sample test.
Answer:Compare three outcomes:
2. A nuclear war that kills 99 per cent of the world’s
3. A nuclear war that kills 100 per cent.
(We can agree that) 2 would be worse than 1, and 3 would be
worse than 2. But which is the greater of these two differences?Spoiler:
It's like at the ripe age of 37 you learned about exponential growth and are honed in on it and using bullshit as an excuse for why you never understood logarithms until you shoved a slide rule up your ass.
My wife is a teacher but working on a Phd so she can teach at a university. Anywho, after seeing her teach early childhood special education for the past 3 years, I can say the system with administration, teaching peers and parents all plays into the problems in the system currently. Being in special ed she teaches children who are totally normal functioning children...except for the fact that their parents don't read to them, see them as a welfare check and can't wait to have another so they get some more food stamps(she has to fill out paperwork yearly for these parents, and when she tells them what the kids IEP says or her evaluation of handicaps along with doctors it can lead to some parents going nuts claiming more issues etc.). She has had kids at 4 years that haven't been introduced to potty training, not because the kids aren't able but because some parents intentionally want to handicap their kids. Don't get me wrong, these are non typical cases but there are parents that are fucking despicable and could give 2 shits about their child having an education. I imagine if they don't care one bit at 3 to 5 years old they won't care at 8 or 14.
Now on to administration. My wife has been lucky enough to have good administration for most of the time she has been teaching. However, her first year she worked at a charter school that catered to students that had problems within the public district. She thought fifth grade and had two kids with serious anger issues. The charter school had in house security to deal with anything that would require physical involvement as some 5th graders were either held back or just huge kids at like 5'8 150 pounds. One day one of these kids physically assaults another and starts choking out a much smaller child. In the process my wife is told to fuck off by the kid and security has to rush in and pull the kid off and takes him to the principles office. What happens next? 15 minutes later this kid is in my wife's class because the principle is a tard and does not believe in punishing kids but rather believes in a cooling off period. Besides that school districts are notorious for shifting shitty administrators around constantly. Principles that are terrible will be at a good 10 to 15 schools in a career just so one school isn't affected so badly. Administrators have unions just like teachers who make it nearly impossible to get fired.
Lastly, my wife does not belong to the union here luckily. A lot of the teachers that do have the largest sense of entitlement of any profession I have ever met. Nothing is ever good enough, not pay, benefits, the amount of kids they have, 3 months off... NOTHING. Some union teachers are fine but there are others that will complain to the union and administration with any issue that arises. If they they have to have a kid in a wheelchair they throw a fit like the damn kid has the plague and make every excuse as to why they shouldn't have this kid. There are literally teachers that will fight not to have a kid with any challenges in their classes because it will make their job 3% harder. Whoever spoke about the education of most teachers is right. Some teachers are just certifiable dumbasses. There are times I've gone to happy hour with my wife and on the way home I ask her if we had a kid would she want so and so teacher to teach them. 10-20% of the time she says no straight up because the teacher is an idiot, doesn't care or is just waiting out retirement. I don't know exactly how to conclude this post but by saying that a lot of the system is just fucked.
If i am smart enough to get a masters in a highly desired field, I am not going to say fuck it and go study to go do a job that pays less. My point was that since we pay teachers shit, we get nothing but flunkees.
Are you really comparing an MSc or MBA which are the ones that pay 60k+, and even that is high, to a masters of education? They are both called masters I guess but the reality is there is a massive difference in difficulty to obtain. Plus teacher pay isn't even bad, everyone loves to talk about the lower salary while ignoring the fact that they work 183 days instead of 225ish and get massively awesome pensions in most states.
We don't need or want our best and brightest to become teachers, that is a waste. We need people who at least give a damn about their jobs though, but the fix to that isn't higher pay.
Last edited by Creslin; 10-24-2014 at 11:14 PM.
Then you have to factor in that teaching isn't a hard skill like other jobs. You not only need to be able to influence and lead whatever particular age your students are, but also give the information to them in a format they can understand and get interested in. My view is that exemplary teachers should be rewarded and poor ones let go, but starting rates are fine. If the system wasn't filled with so much bureaucracy you would have a lot more good teachers and the bad ones would be looking for work. In all honesty I'd much rather see people who are intelligent innovate and improve society as whole instead of teaching a podunk class of 30 students every year.
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