That's interesting. I knew they were smaller than 2x4 would imply, but not by a half inch in either direction. That seems like a lot.
Let me off the planet please. Hoping this is sarcasm but I can't find it.
CA Judge May Have Created Huge Challenges For Contractors
Been that way a VERY long time in the US. That's a rough cut nominal size before final dimensioning/planing (tho we do both at the same time now). Not a lawyer but where in the add where it list 2x4 does it say 2"x4" or even mention inches. Apparently this is news to a few in CA who got a judge to go along with them. They have been 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" for a long time, longer than anyone involved in either side of the case has been alive.I couldn’t believe it when I read it. A California Superior Court judge by the name of Paul M. Haakenson ordered Lowes to pay $1.6 million dollars for selling 2x4’s that are not really 2” x 4”.
Yes, your read that right!
According to the Marin County, CA district attorney's office Lowes "unlawfully advertised structural dimensional building products for sale." To put it a different way, prosecutors say that if products, including building products like a 2x4 or 2x8, aren’t actually 2” x 4” or 2” x 8” when purchased, consumers are being mislead.
That's interesting. I knew they were smaller than 2x4 would imply, but not by a half inch in either direction. That seems like a lot.
The metric system. It comes. The 1,000 years of darkness and prefix learning has begun.
Sounds like "50 inch class" TV's that are actually like 48.5 inches or some shit. I always hated that. Just tell me exactly what the size is please.
If it's an industry standard the way it is, I think the judge's ruling is a little stupid and not likely to stand up in higher courts.
The name should probably be a bit more descriptive, though, since not everybody buying lumber is a professional.
You're gonna be pissed when you find out 1/2" plywood isn't a 1/2" thick either.
Maybe they should learn to read, nowhere does it say a 2"x4" piece of lumber or mention inches at all.
A 12 volt car battery puts out a hell of a lot more than 12 volts as well, maybe I should sue......yeah maybe.
Last edited by Borzak; 09-11-2014 at 09:52 PM.
You're pretty angry about this.
Because it's incredibly stupid. Suprised they didn't get them on the length as well. An 8' 2x4 isn't 8' either. Normally you get an extra 1/4 to 3/4" of an inch to work with.
I'm angry because eventually people who have half a brain wind up paying for it.
I'm just trolling you a little. No harm meant!
I wonder why those arguments weren't made in court, or why they weren't persuasive to the judge if they were.
Waiting for this ass hattery to reach our industry. I work in steel. Ocasionally we sell to the general public when someone wants a drop (a piece we cut off of something else).
Not all 10" beams are 10" deep. Some are 9-7/8" and 10-1/4" etc... you get the exact number by the designation 10x19 10x21 with the second number being pounds per foot. Waiting for someone to sue us to selling them a 10" beam that isn't 10". Some 14" beams can be a foot or so in difference in depth, good thing we don't give those away or sell the drop.
Oh, come on. Stop rattling out the "it's not 2"x4"!" crap. The designation clearly came from the inches involved, and even you admit that it's the rough measurements at one point in the process.
Don't get me wrong; I think the ruling is a bit silly. But there's a decent case to be made that there should be a disclaimer for the layperson that they're not getting the size wood that they reasonably would expect, even if it doesn't necessarily matter.
Apparently the word "normal" isn't taught anymore. Back to your nanny state that has to explain how everything works to you.
A 10" beam isn't 10" either. It's called nominal, look up the word.
It seems like if this was something done correctly in the first place, we wouldn't be having this issue today. 1/4 inch off on a 10'' length isn't a biggie, but 1/2'' on 2'' is, if you aren't aware.
(not that I think courts need to get involved, but something the industry should take care of)
I sure hope that is a joke. As you said, it has been that way far longer than any of us have been alive, and if you've ever done anything even remotely handy you'd have encountered this. And switching to metric wouldn't change anything, since it was named off of the pre-worked dimensions. You'd just have people bitching that it wasn't exactly 5x10 then.
EDIT: I'm not opposed to them making people put up a warning or some shit in Lowe's and Home Depot, but fining them? Fuck that. Why not fine every fucking architect that has specified 2x4s over the years, and every contractor that has supplied them, because "the owner isn't getting what they expected"?
Last edited by Void; 09-11-2014 at 10:24 PM.
Because when you first bought 2x4's they were milled at all. People wanted milled lumber and mills were already set to rough cut a 2x4 that was 2"x4". But we couldn't have that so they just milled more off.
I still don't know why people don't udnerstand the word nominal.
Yeah. It makes perfect sense the way Borzak explained it, but if you'd asked me before today, I would've said that they'd be exactly 2" by 4", maybe with a small variance.
I think I'm gonna go to Home Depot and get some penny nails, and then bitch up a storm when they cost more than one cent.
If you know; what happens to the extra wood? Is it waste, or does it get turned into pulp/whatever?
Because of the way the legal system works in this nation now will be out measing all kinds of shit that they never knew what they actually measured and were sold with a nomimal size as a label.
Dude, it's one judge in a state court. Relax.
You've got some valid points, but you're going a little too mad.
The new mills will iterally take a tree top that's barely larger than a rouge cut 2x4 and cut out the outside part leaving only the 2x4 left. Chip in saw. It has giagantic cutter that spins and only leaves what is desired without a cutting/mill operation seperate
Alright, there's a case to be made that this custom results in the mill making more money by selling the customer less than they expected, then.
I'm made because the judge apparently can't educate himself, someone is going to have to pay for his stupidity. Most likely the consumer.
Even most 2x4's are actually 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" but they're even that. It's a natural product so I guess the next person is going to sue that it's actually 1-3/8" x 3-1/2"
I guess when I buy a new battery it will have to be labeled as a 12.6 volt battery with a range of 11.5 to 13.8 volts. Total asshatery.
Last edited by Borzak; 09-11-2014 at 10:41 PM.
How much does it matter, in practice? I'm an apartment liver. I don't build shit.
It doesn't matter at all in practice.
Originally Posted by supertouch
for those who asked:
i haven't sucked her penis but i have stroked it. it sounds odd but i don't view it as a masculine organ on her.
If you're the kind of person where a 2x4 not being exactly 2"x4" actually matters, you're also the kind of person who already knows that a 2x4 isn't exactly 2"x4"
Going to sue McDonalds. I'm betting my 1/4 pounder isn't actually a 1/4 pounder once it's cooked lol.
That's why you measure and mark the way that you do. I guess it could matter, if you just assumed that every angle was square and every line was straight... but it wouldn't be a fault of the materials it would be a fault in the construction.
I'm going to buy a mill and make sure the finished product is exactly 2x4.
Just to fuck with construction workers.
In fairness, till I had to start building some of my own shit I just assumed the numbers meant actual measurements as well. My first woodworking project went quite awry because I didn't know this. I was very quickly edumacated by my local hardware store when I tried to return all my lumber because I thought was shorted. Later, when I tried to blame my Dad for not teaching me this shit he just looked at me with disgust and told me it was knowledge every man should know inherently. I felt shame.
Last edited by opiate82; 09-11-2014 at 11:50 PM.
Yeah, all that would be required is a little disclaimer at the bottom of the ad. It's not a big deal.
Anyone that's actually buying 2x4s should already know that it's really 1.5x3.5, pretty sure that's in the first chapter of the manual to get your man card. It's always been like that and hundreds of millions of board feet of lumber have been sold for decades like that.
It's a really stupid ruling that if applied to every lumber retailer that's ever sold a 2x4 then it would dwarf the penalties that big tobacco has incurred over the past twenty years. Of course it's contained to one dumbass state judge, but it's still retarded.
Measure twice, cut once.
It's the same people who complain that the 2x4 has sweep in it is because they cut trees too soon instead of "old growth" (LOL in itself) trees.
No, the reason you see a lot of 2x4's now with mass amounts of sweep in them they are cut on a sash gang saw, basically like a band saw blade attached to a frame where a bunch are side by side. The operator can follow the sweep of the tree. It doesn't matter if the tree leans over from 0 at the bottom to 45 midway up you can still cut a series of 2x4's out of it by following the sweep.
It's a natural product.
Last edited by Borzak; 09-12-2014 at 12:31 AM.
There really not anything wrong with it, but if you're buying lumber at Lowes it's the sort of thing that you should already know. It has never been intentionally misleading, which is the insinuation of the argument that "2x4's are not actually 2x4!!!!" That's all people object to, the idea that mills are trying to pull a fast one. No they're not. Consumers are just ignorant.
The 50" Class TV shit is much worse. That one actually is intentionally misleading.
Yeah, I don't think there's an intent to mislead. It DOES seem like the mills get a small advantage by being able to use the "extra" wood for other things, but it's marginal and nobody should care about it really.
"2 by 4" is so much easier to say. That's how I've always thought of it at least. Maybe there's a complex esoteric explanation for it beyond that.
Well, Borzak was saying that it's the approximate dimensions of the rough cut before it's trimmed.
Calling it a 2x4 in common parlance is fine. I just don't see any problem with adding a little disclaimer of what the approximate actual size is going to be.
They didn't sue to get a disclaimer. They sued for the cash payout. The disclaimer was added to protect thema gainst more morons in the future who managed to figure it out for the last 100 years.
If you didn't know that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4" then you should feel embarrassed.
Some of us don't use wood for bumpers.
Why should we feel embarrassed? I'm not. I've never built anything before. I didn't have a dad who did that shit, so no one taught me. I lived in cities my whole life and never built a wooden bumper or chicken coop. It wasn't until I was double checking the prefab fence pieces and 4x4s I had delivered for my new fence that I even realized a 4x4 isn't 4''x4'' - which mattered because it was a long fence with many 4x4s so the sum total of the "difference" came out to almost a foot.
Yeah the lawsuit was stupid and I have to imagine it would get overturned if it was appealed. That said, it's a very simple fix to note the actual measurements next to the products for people like myself who are like, why are my 4x4s too narrow, and 4 inches too long?
Well, fuck me. All these years I thought I just had a fucked up tape measure :-P
I feel zero embarrassment for not knowing the exact measurements, but I also am not going to be buying lumber anytime soon, so I'm mostly just amused by how angry this is making Borzak.
i knew about this since i was a kid in the scouts working on one of my merit badges. i just assumed the lumber industry were a bunch of fucking crooks.
While assembling supplies for home improvement last month I noticed that the sign at Home Depot actually read 2" x 4" and commented as such to my buddy. A better solution would be for Americans to stop measuring things by the furlong per fortnight and actually employ real units of measurement.
Figured that one out when I was like 8. Stole scrap wood to build a treehouse. It quickly fell apart, but was later recycled into a bmx jump ramp. Some kid nobody really liked nearly killed himself during the episode, so that helped sooth the pain of our treehouse turning out to be a terrible failure.
When it comes to wood, every inch counts.
Kaige#1128 - Battle.net
Kaige - Steam
Don't forget about every joist hanger and 2x4 bracket in existence is manufactured to fit 1.5 x 3.5, 1.5 x 7.5, etc. as well. This isn't any kind of conspiracy or controversy.
And ya, if you're a man, you should be a little embarrassed for not knowing. Just like you should be mildly embarrassed as a man if you've never taken a shot of whiskey, caught a fish, grilled a steak, or thrown a football.
Having said that, I own a 100yr old home and the old 2" x 4" boards in it aren't just correct dimensions, but ridiculously strong. Some of the ones today could be broken over your knee. The good wood from 100 yrs ago could be used to lift a truck.
What I'm hearing here is that I bought a lot of lumber at Lowe's over the last few months and I live in California...
I kid, I kid. I wouldn't feel bad for not knowing this. If you've never built anything, why would you? I figured it out when I hauled home a bunch of scrap wood from some neighbors trash pile up the street and tried to build something. Measured it, wasn't 2"x4", realized something was odd, went and looked it up in a book, done.
It is less than 2x4 so you can put drywall or plywood on either side of it and still most likely meet 2x4 specifications is what I was told growing up in construction. They were invented in the 1800's and used to be 2" x 4" but they then switched to that before cutting, like your burger weight. Depending on the wetness of the board and the weather in your area etc they will be of varying sizes when they are done cutting.
European ones are measure in MM and they aren't exact either, IIRC they were advertised as 50mm x 100mm when I was in Germany but in fact were smaller, like 40 x 90 or less.
If you didn't know that a 2x4 wasn't really 2x4 I have to agree with Tuco you are not a man.
oderint dum metuant
I don't see how they can cite Lowe's as a retailer but ignore the rest of the industry.
Wait till they find out a 2x4 stud for an 8' wall is 92-5/8" long and a 8' 2x4 is 96" long.
I agree, judge is a retard. It's named that way because you ARE actually getting 2"X4" of wood, it's dimensions have just shrunk since it's been dried. Someone should have put a small cup of water on the judges desk and said "we're willing to offer this to everyone who feels cheated...since this is what they actually were cheated out of."
Edit: I will admit though, I had no idea about this until I was 17 and had to help my father put in fence posts. He let me build the gate, and measuring it out I quickly said "Dad, you bought the wrong wood..." He ran over, concerned but then his look was...scathing. He took this big deep sigh and said "that's how it all comes. I should have let you help me rebuild the bathroom a couple years ago...."
However, what I'm willing to bet is that this has dick all to do with the "people" not understanding; and instead a bunch of departments were going to lose funding--so they went to weights and measures department for a list of easy marks they could potentially get for some quick cash. Lowe's probably fought them, and they wanted to teach Lowe's a lesson about how "off the book" Taxes really work--and they got a very friendly judge. If you've ever owned a business in a cash strapped city; you know to just pay the fines, even if they are absurd, because of shit like this. It's just a hidden bureaucratic tax.
Last edited by Lithose; 09-12-2014 at 05:17 AM.
There are standards for how small a 2x4 can be at a given moisture content, I'm not sure if this entered in here or not. But a 2x4 isn't 2"x4" at any period now even before stuck in the kiln or allowed to air dry.
I guess I'm probably the only person in the world who went to college to get a Forest Management / Wildlife Management degree as a hobby and to protect my own interst in land I own. Back when I went thru forestry school we still had a big portion of it dedicated to mill practices and that entire side of the industry.
Now days depending on the mill it's possible to cut and mill at the same time, tho this is not a standard or even the majority. A lot of lumber is still milled the old fasioned way on giant circular saws and then milled on all 4 sides.
Most dimensional lumber now is klin dried and pushed in that afternoon and left overnight or 24 hours depending on the mill etc...I don't know of any that sell dimensional lumber that has been air dried. I think the standard is around 13% moisture content but I'm not sure on that.
If you really want your mind blown, plywood and the individual plies when cut to length is normally cut as it's moving very fast and the blade of the saw goes at angle and it comes out pretty square when done. Depends on the type of plywood etc..Then it's stacked in a giant press several stories high and they press it and heat it at the same time to cure the glue. Then they trim it to final size.
It's actually pretty interesting to watch the process and how fast it goes. I did flunk a test once when the question was to draw out a flow chart for the process of a new mill we had visited. It had just reopened after a major multi million refit to make it the most advanced and computer controlled etc...They still had a few bugs in it. They had a mexican with a chainsaw cutting boards that got stuck. I put him on my flow chart and said he was the key to the entire process for this fortune 500 company. Prof was not amused. I think I might have even labeled him as "illegal with a chainsaw".
Last edited by Borzak; 09-12-2014 at 05:24 AM.
Sounds like the issue with cooked foods (burger weights, steak weights etc.) finally worked it's way to another industry! Yay America (really i'm just jealous because I wish I could find some kind of super stupid lawsuit that would get me rich but inspiration hasn't stricken me yet).
Any swinging dick in this thread that is butthurt to know a 2x4 is not exactly 2" x 4" gets their card suspended for a week.
Misrepresentation of length is everywhere in our society. All men need to do for proof of that statement is look down in between their legs.
This thread is a pretty good example of Duppin's posts: bitching about stuff he knows nothing about!!!
A lot of insecure dudes in here talking about revoking man cards.
An architect was recently drawing up plans for a wood frame structure and I corrected them on making this same mistake.
I felt real smart, but i would imagine on the 2nd day of school they would be like "BY THE WAY ABOUT WOOD"
dont forget to bring a bucket of gasoline to burn whatever ugly fucking thing you buy
Another example of the courts pursuit of legalism rather than justice in this country.
We need to stretch their necks one by one.
District Attorney OKs Nominal Lumber Descriptions | Remodeling
Or you can read through this, like page 3 or so:One of the district attorney's offices involved in the widely-criticized $1.6 million Lowe's 2x4 settlement said it's "not misleading" to call 2x4 a 2x4, provided you meet existing nominal standards set forth by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). The NIST defines a 2x4 as measuring 1.5 inches by 3.5 inches.
“If it’s a softwood product like 2x4 lumber and it actually meets the NIST standards, then they don’t need to [include] the actual dimensions," said Marin County Deputy District Attorney Andy Perez in an interview with REMODELING. Meet that 1.5-inch by 3.5-inch standard, explained Perez, and you're free to call it a 2x4.
Perez said the problem arose when California inspectors found that Lowe's advertised dimensional building products under nominal descriptions when they didn't actually fit the standards set forth by the NIST. Some of those descriptions, stated the Marin County district attorney's office, were provided to Lowe's by the manufacturers or other suppliers of the lumber.
No, I just wanted to bait you into actually reading it all for me.
Thank you, now i know Borzak needs to do more research.
I already knew there were standards. The only thing that makes sense is someone had a hard on for Lowes. Lowes doesn't own mills. Walk in to any other Lowes, Home Deport or other lumberyard and you'll find the same results like as small as 1-1/4".
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