Edit for seriousness - if they do vote for independence it'd be more of a pseudo-independence. They still want to use the pound and want to bargin some say into how the currency is controlled.
Surprised there isn't a thread on this here already. For those that don't know the Scots will be voting for their independence from the United Kingdom on September 18th. For Americans this would be like Texas declaring their independence. Or maybe Alaska, but with a decent economy.
Thoughts from our resident Brits and Europeans?
Edit for seriousness - if they do vote for independence it'd be more of a pseudo-independence. They still want to use the pound and want to bargin some say into how the currency is controlled.
Last edited by ZyyzYzzy; 09-10-2014 at 03:49 PM.
I know other provinces in Europe are looking at this closely - particularly areas in Spain.
What's the story behind the Scottish wanting independence from GB at this point besides general rabble rabble? I thought Ireland was all the religion issues but Scotland was fairly chummy with the crown in recent centuries.
Another thing is that London keeps most farmer subsidies down in England and the Scottish farmers receive less than anyone else in the EU, only 128€ per hectare of worked land, for comparison the average in the UK is €225, a German farmer receives €298 and a Maltese Farmer a stunning €640.
So basicaly the English are still stealing big time from the Scots.
That's what they have today. They'll be absolutely independent and if they want to (re)join the EU, they have transition to the €uro anyways. Ideally with the freedom loving Scottish people no longer bothering London with their votes, the Tories can gain full power and establish their so beloved Nazi state, leave the EU and live in the poverty that is sure to follow when the entire financial sector abandons London for Frankfurt a.M. In return we can send them instructions on how to goose-step.pseudo-independence.
Last edited by Quineloe; 09-10-2014 at 04:09 PM.
I think however its a case of heart versus head. Their hearts might want independence but TBH they'll be much better off as part of the UK unless they somehow manage to have their own currency. If they stick with the pound they'll have no say in the exchange rate or the money supply, so it will be a weak kind of independence.
I'm also pretty sure that there will be more than enough people willing to loan an independent Scotland money at rates far below payday loans... After all, the country is rich on resources. Norway seems to do pretty well under the same circumstances and a tiny population.
See Quebec. It's short sighted nationalism. In a globally competitive economy breaking up your country can't possibly help your standard of living and competitiveness. I can understand and appreciate nationalistic pride and heritage, but it's essentially shooting yourself in the foot just so you can take pride in hoisting your own flag. The Canadian Frenchies said they didn't want to pay back debt either, while simultaneously still being allowed to use a Canadian passport and currency.
Last edited by Frenzied Wombat; 09-10-2014 at 05:04 PM.
Scotland on the other hand has access to valuable resources. Sure, some foreign investors will stay away, but there's plenty that will want to step in.
Small countries can work even better with Globalization. Isn't that the whole point of it? Without open borders and free trade across nations, thousands of tiny countries would be in terrible shape, just like it was in the middle ages and mercantilism.
Alex Salmond has said live on TV that Scotland won't take on any UK liabilities if they don't get what they belive is their fair share of the assets. He means that if he doesn't get control over the currency he isn't paying any of the debts.
Basically since Tony Blair lied about Iraq and the banking crisis, there is a general feeling that politics is shit and we want a way out. So charismatic guys like Alex Salmond (Scottish Prime Minister), Boris Johnson (London Mayor) and Nigel Farage (Leader of the majority of our European representatives) are picking up votes. Add to that the percentage of Scotland that hates England forever because and you have a new country possibly appearing.
Unfortunatly for Scotland, England is 86% of the country and if we have anyone half way decent in charge if independence happens, Scotland is going to get royally screwed over - and for real this time:
1) They want control of the currency ("Currency Union"). What the fuck? How is a foreign country having half the say on your currency going to work, especially with a 90-10 population/economy split? The UK refused the Euro for the same reasons we will refuse this.
2) 90% of the customers of most Scottish companies are going to become foreign and possibly subject to export taxes and exchange rates, guess were they are going to move their headquaters after independence?
3) They want to automatically join the EU. While the UK can shurg off losing Scotland, Spain cannot lose Catalonia as it's half their economy and will likely cause trouble and make them unable to join. This has been confirmed by one of outgoing EU Presidents.
4) All countries joining the EU for about a decade or so have had to join the Euro and Schengen (free movement without passports) no exceptions. As the UK isn't in Schengen we will have to build a border fence, which we can because the far north of England is an underpopulated wilderness. I think that this opt out is the sole thing we should help Scotland with, we have an alternative called the Common Travel Area which is the same thing but just with UK and Ireland. Unfortunatly this probably won't happen as Alex Salmond wants to mass import foreigners into Scotland to boost the population since they have 96% white people.
5) Scotland wants to join NATO but disarm half of it's nuclear deterrant since the UK one is hidden in some scottish loch which we are unable to replicate anywhere else. Ironically the only unpopulated part of England where we could build something to house it is next to the Scottish border! Don't think that this will happen.
6) Since they won't get this "Currency Union" they want (I thought they wanted independence?), they'll not pay any debts and so even though the UK has committed to paying it, it'll still be seen as a default.
7) Alex Salmond wants more than he is letting on, a few years ago he wanted to get rid of the Queen and join the Euro. Expect expensive bullshit bilingual signs in gaelic which nobody can actually read, like Ireland and Wales suffer at the moment.
8) The most scottish political party in the UK will be permanently out of power as a big chunk of their voters will vanish, so you'll see more scotland unfriendly diplomacy from the UK.
9) Scotland's national dish is "Deep Fried Mars Bar", it's a chocolate bar covered in fat and oil. All of their oil revenues will be going into keeping their population alive. They already get higher than average money per person than the rest of the UK and have things the rest of us don't have like free University fees. Are they going to nationalise the oil rigs or tax it?
10) Since Alex Salmond want's Scotland to be like Norway etc, people and buisnesses will flee to England to escape the tax.
TLDR: Independence is going to massivly benefit England and Scotland will be providing years of failiure drama. Saying that, to me Scotland is part of the country so I don't want them to leave even though I'll benefit if they do.
Last edited by Chris; 09-10-2014 at 05:37 PM.
Last edited by Frenzied Wombat; 09-10-2014 at 05:41 PM.
Since when are the tories fascists? Also, Scotland provides about 9% of the UK GDP, not 11%. However, Scotland does have a better GDP per capita than the UK average (which is not saying much, as we have shitty GDP per capita). Also, the tories do not want to leave the EU, but they are willing to have a referendum on the matter because a significant number of their voters do want to leabe the EU. You seem to be confusing the tories with UKIP, but they are completely different political parties.
The fact is that we don't know what Scotland would be like after independence. Politicians on both sides are waiting until after the vote before they work out the actual details, so it is a case of scottish nationalism versus fear of change.
Last edited by Quineloe; 09-10-2014 at 05:59 PM.
sure being a tiny country pays off if you get oil rich in norway (or say qatar) or you function as a place for rich or ultra rich people to legally stash their money in secret or favorable conditions..
Last edited by fanaskin; 09-10-2014 at 06:02 PM.
Also, comparing Tories to fascists demeans the meaning of the word. Mussolini was a fascist, not current day British tories. I love how the ultra-left these days throws around words like Genocide, fascism, and racism without any inkling as to their definitions.
BTW, interesting equivalency between violent rioting and financial exploitation... Guess what, when black people are rich they "loot the economy" as well. The effects of wealth don't discriminate based on the color of your skin.
Last edited by Frenzied Wombat; 09-10-2014 at 06:19 PM.
I miss Longshanks
I was also surprised that there wasn't a thread on it. First I heard of it was a few months ago on the BBC. And you'd think, since this has been going on for years, it would be a bigger deal on the BBC.
But then I realized that I listen to their international broadcast, not their national one, and it made sense.
Americans don't really get this. It's not like if one of our States was trying to (peacefully) secede. Or even make a special case for what Statehood means in their situation. It's a different sort of thing. So we don't have much of a context.
But it's also different because England has most of the MP's, doesn't it, while it has none of the regional sorts of government that Wales, Scotland, and Ireland do. The English just roll that into the larger administration. The social contract is just fundamentally different. In America, we like our shit simple.
Last edited by Iannis; 09-10-2014 at 07:38 PM.
Who gets to keep all the Islamists, Scotland or England?
lol Scottish financial buisnesses are starting to announce that they will move their operations to London if this happens, including The Royal Bank of Scotland. Hahaha.
England will get all of the Islamists, Scotland is 96% White while England is only 86%. Our black people and the hindu half of the asians are quite good though.
The Welsh are a little touchy at being forgotten. But you can't understand a word they're fucking saying anyway so it really doesn't matter. Hell I'm a quarter Welsh and I can make heads or tails of it.
Haha i get making fun of welsh people because I saw Torchwood.
There are three and a half countries (states), three towns on islands then some further away towns on islands sharing the same main government, with local (state) governments for everything except England. It's not that complicated!
it is when you add the EU layer on top of that.
EU just does free movement between members and trade laws to make sure products are safe and not full of horse meat from Romania. They want to do more and fuck them.
I'm going to tread into territory I am not that familiar with, but hasn't the whole EU/currency thing been deemed a failure, mainly because of the drain caused by effectively "3rd world Euro nations" like Greece? Wasn't the UK's decision to keep the pound a smart one? Looking for edumacation here, so don't all start jumping down my throat.
The frozen pic before pressing play on that video is all you need to know, like USA but 4 states. Then if you are interested you can learn about the smaller states which are basically villages on rocks to bring you up about 10 total.
Is Scotland a northern or southern state? Is it like Kentucky?
Last edited by Chris; 09-10-2014 at 10:21 PM.
To me one of the most interesting parts of this is how many people in Scotland seem to be willing to follow a guy making so many promises and guarantees he'd make the average U.S. congressman blush.
Like his response to all of the UK parties rejecting a currency union with an independent Scotland was along the lines of "it will happen anyway, because magic". Or that NATO membership is guaranteed. Or EU membership despite the countries that have their own separatist regions.
Also, how has England allowed the West Lothian question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia farce to go on for so long? Scotland already has more democracy than England. If I were English I'd just let them go instead of offering more devolution that the English don't have.
I'm all for independence for the Scots, especially if it costs Cameron his job.
Oh sure, Scotland gets to vote on its independence but Eastern Ukraine or Crimea can't.
About the Euro question, I'll let an economist fill the specifics, but I think it's a package that comes with good and bad things (probably more of the former) and, unsurprisingly, the good is quickly forgotten when the bad happens.
EDIT: Oh and someone mentioned tiny countries and made a rebultal about banking being 85% of GDP or whatever. You will pleased to know banking is slightly above 10% of Switzerland's GDP. Raw material trading though...
Last edited by Szlia; 09-11-2014 at 12:58 AM.
Last edited by fanaskin; 09-11-2014 at 02:14 AM.
Thanks for that video. I think I 'mostly-sorta-kinda' knew all of that but not to such a degree. The truth is that you could make a nearly equally confusing venn diagram for the US, Russia, China, Japan, Spain, France, Germany, and probably several others.
I am with Wombat I think. To his question Chris says yes, Quin says no, and that makes me wonder their separate underlying political philosophies. For instance, I consider myself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. Which basically boils down to, "Do whatever the hell you want to in this world just so long as you're not hurting anyone else. Get high and fuck each other in the ass all day. Or, don't ever get high and don't ever fuck and just go to church all day. I don't care one way or the other, I just don't want to be sent the bill for your lifestyle. And if you fuck up and make bad decisions? That's life pal. No one gets a free ride. Be smart or be left behind."
There isn't really a political party in America that represents my views. The Libertarians think they do, but they have slowly become pseudo-anarchists and have, generally, lost themselves over the years to their own radical element.
So I wonder, do the people of (gotta be careful here) "The Greater Realm of The British/UK Political Sphere" have a party like the one I am describing or is it like America? Are you also forced to pick between shitty and shittier? Over here if you support capitalism and 'The Right to Economically Fail', you must also have sex with Jesus every day in your mind and like to eat nothing but bacon while you drive your H3 over a group of baby seals. But if you support gay marriage and legalizing weed, you must also agree to pay for thugs' cell phones and their Mountain Dew addictions while you apologize to them for not killing yourself the second you were born. There is, currently, no middle ground.
Anyway, I just want to know which side the capitalists fall on, and which side the socialists fall on. I know it isn't that simple. Nothing ever is. But if Limeys are anything like Yanks, that political division will tell you a lot more than just what's on the surface.
I have quite a few RL Scottish friends and they are all for one for Scottish independence. So much so that they've been flooding my FB feed with pro-independence pics and stuff. Being partly "British" (mix of Scottish and English) myself I'm all for Scottish independence. Both because this is what my friends want, and because the UK gov't has shat all over the Scots (and the rest of the country to a lesser extent) for the past 30 years or more. I mean, it's like if you're in an abusive relationship. You could stay and take the pain you know will come, or you could move out. Now, you could end up worse, but chances are you'll do fine on your own.
My secret hope is that they vote for Yes, and once done Wales and N-Ireland will want out too. Once they're gone the rest of England will declare independence from the fuckwits down there on the banks of the Thames. Everyone would win (except the fuckwits).
So the scots would rather deal with the EU than with London. I didn't realise things were THAT bad up there. Anyway I don't how an independant scotland would possibly not be quickly integrated into EU and the Eurozone should they ask. It's Scotland, not Romania or Estonia, no offense to our Romanian or Estonian friends,but if it's taking longer and longer to join the EU and the Eurozone, it's not so much because it's a long process rather than countries wanting to join being far away from european average + people being less than enthusiastic having very poor and corrupt countries joining.
The only Scots I know personally are very much pro independence and have been talking about it for the last year fairly steadily. I too wondered why this hadn't gotten a lot more press as it seemed like a pretty damn significant thing. Not the least of which due to our close governmental ties to the UK. There are lots of things marked US/CAN/UK/AUS/NZ that very pointedly leave out Ireland and I wonder if Scotland would be tossed or not. Quite a lot of the UK engineering defense contracts are actually located in Scotland after all. I think many people discounted the whole vote for a long time because the polls showed "No" to have a sizeable lead. Flash forward to last week when "Yes" seemed to pull ahead or at least be even and suddenly shit got real for everyone else.
While Wales has a very different relationship with England than either the Irish or the Scots ever did I can't help but think that if the Scots break off then there will be calls in Wales to separate as well. They already have a strong cultural separation in the form of the language which you see on signs all over the place and was quite a wake-up call when entering Cardiff. I think BBC Wales being so very successful in genre TV has really done a lot for people understanding what exactly it is to be Welsh and that there is a part of the UK that isn't English Scottish or Irish.
That having been said the only Welsh people I know have no real desire for independence when I mentioned the Scottish vote to them. They just make a point of staying as far away from London as they can and doing their own thing.
Last edited by Qhue; 09-11-2014 at 11:41 AM.
See, this is what happens when you make an Outlander TV show!
I've got a few Scottish friends, all of whom are military or ex military (who aren't allowed to vote in the referendum) and every one of them says very few people they know are interested in splitting from the UK. Up until a couple of weeks ago no one was interested in this at all, but then all of a sudden it was all over the papers.
Last edited by GorestabbCOE; 09-11-2014 at 01:03 PM.
there was some yougov poll that came back over 50% yes and that caused a stir/panic
Billions of pounds wiped from value of Scottish firms after yes vote leads independence poll | Politics | theguardian.com
It should be mentioned that banks and investors shying away from a potentially independent Scotland is not indicative that an independent Scotland will fail in their eyes, it just means there is uncertainty, which is something most banks and investors shy away from.
Also: It's absolutely true because it's written in the Daily Mail.
Last edited by Quineloe; 09-11-2014 at 04:05 PM.
If not residency, how do you want us to decide who gets to vote? Scottish people do not have separate citizenship. Should it be done by place of birth, so that a scot living in Antarctica can vote?
Also, why would soldiers who were forced to relocate vote yes? They willingly joined the British armed forces and would of always known that could mean moving to any British base in the world.
This is one of the strange things about our country. Some people think of themselves as Scottish, English or Welsh while other people are just British. It really comes down to what you think a country is. To me a county is a nation state, which neither England or Scotland have been for hundreds of years.
Ironically, England and Scotland are united because the English royal family was infertile so the Scottish royal family took over being related via a cousin.
I don't think that independence would be possible for Wales, they are too English.
Last edited by Chris; 09-11-2014 at 05:34 PM.
Last edited by fanaskin; 09-11-2014 at 05:46 PM.
Aside from that whole civil war dust up a few years ago, you don't see Americans being so provincial. People certainly like their states (especially those in the south) but we are all Americans first, really. After hundreds of years of interbreeding, how can there still really be enough sentiment that the Scots want to separate from the English?
Last edited by fanaskin; 09-11-2014 at 06:10 PM.
I think it's a big problem if your vision is a united eu, they seem to use somewhat underhanded tactics to sell the eu to these countries and they are given a different product than what they are sold, so I agree with the nationalists in that regard.
I think at some point the EU needs to turn into a not-voluntary union, and dissenters from the federal govt punished just like the North punished the South in the US. Otherwise, how can it ever claim to be a unit? It's just a closely allied group of independent nations.
If Scotland gets independence, they can forget every treaty, agreement and deal that the UK made all these centuries. They will have to start like from zero.
EU? Forget that too. The decision to join the union must be unanimous, and Spain will never say yes (just watch what happened today in Barcelona).
They will get the oil in the North Sea for themselves (england will get fucked by it) but you need someone to buy that precious black liquid.
Last edited by ohkcrlho; 09-11-2014 at 08:53 PM.
A war is coming, I've seen it in my dreams. Fires sweeping over the Earth, bodies in the streets, cities turned to dust... retaliation.
Hollywood is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything you love is dead.
I think that this has been quiet because the NO campaign has been quiet on purpose, they want to drop all of their bombs this week so that there is no chance to answer them.
Last night all of the scottish banks announced that they will move their HQs to London, tonight we have supermarkets announcing that prices will rise because they'll be operating over a border.
Ok, what DID happen in Barcelona today?
Ah, Catelonia. Didnt know about that till google-fu. Interesting.
Last edited by VariaVespasa; 09-12-2014 at 07:05 AM.
lol, love his closing comment.
The more I watch of this the more I want them to go away. Shame about the sane Scottish people, they'll be dragged down by the political class and white trash bravehearting.
Fucking lower taxes, more money for everything and entire British economy run to suit them. Why not vote Yes? xD
Braveheart had it right. The problem with Scotland is that it is full of Scots.
I mean to me it sounds like a bad idea for everyone, but hey I don't live there nor do I claim to know everything about it, but for the 2 to be getting along well currently ( not beheading people or at war ), this decade probably isn't the best time to do this.
Shit like this is just going to keep making it easier brick by brick for Russia, China and hell even US to keep doing whatever in the hell it wants to keep doing.
This whole thing seems like expertly ginned up nationalism by this Salmond guy. So many of the practical details of this thing really make it look like a bad idea for the Scots.
Stop fucking over the Scottish people and they likely would not hate you limey faggots so much.
I think it would be a good idea to stay with the UK but don't act like this will only hurt Scotland. The UK will be greatly diminished if Scotland leaves.
The UK is losing their shit over this, which tells me its a BIG deal if scotland tells them to go pound sand. if i had the cash i would totally move to Scotland enjoy its beautiful scenery and fuck those hottie lasses til my dick falls off.
As the resident Scot I can tell you that it actually is the Tories driving this. The legacy of Thatcher in the 80's destroyed the Tory vote up here (fun fact, Scotland used to vote fairly Conservative before the Demon Grocer of Grantham). For me, and most people I know, voting Yes on Thursday is about never having to suffer another Tory government.
In American terms it would be like having a referendum on never having another Republican Congress, Senate and Presidency. Knowing this board a fair few of you would be quick to vote yes on that.
I'm definitely no expert on UK politics but do the Scots really think the Tory party is going to be running the parliament until the end of time? Wasn't the last PM Scottish himself, and from the Labour Party? Not even 5 years ago. Leaving the UK seems a lot harder to reverse than a bad government.
Look, its all down to the electoral map. In Scotland you have a voting bloc that largely prefers left of centre policies. We are never going to see those from a Westminster government any time soon.
I am historically no nationalist. I find the whole 'Braveheart' thing ridiculous. I am making a cold calculation that voting yes on Thursday will give me a better chance to be governed how I prefer. As are many others here.
Last edited by Lusiphur; 09-16-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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