Brad needs to visit here all throughout yes , but a closed forum where everyone paid 25 or so at least to be there and is genuinely interested in the game is a nice option. I'd still be here as much if not more , but for actual polls on mechanics and such the trolls shouldn't be allowed to vote. That's more the thing I'm thinking about , not discussion , but when Brad actual wants a numbers break down on some specific issue to at least look at the results , that should be backers only.
Feedback is great and naturally you can't just write off what people say, but in truth I hope Brad and his team have a fairly clear vision in mind that they intend to stick to. I'm not saying to be completely rigid and unbending, but I'd rather see this be their world rather than a design by committee.
Items might have slots for a gem that grants 'Indestructibility'. And a Sword that has no other attributes but decent dmg/delay and MAGIC INDESTRUCTABLE attributes should be the hot shit for mid-level tanks.
Mark me down for some level of spell/ability limitation. I like the idea of having a set of spells for different situation. To not only plan for what might go down, but plan according to what you'd be fighting and who with. That shaman can slow, so your enchanter can load some other situation spell (or slow, just in case, depending on the situation).
Also, Vanguard had a lot of elements of timing that I liked. Even when combat was spammy, you had to pay attention to when you were casting what. With reactions and counters and intercepts and vulnerabilities, it wasn't just spam your rotation and it not mattering what you were fighting. You had to pay attention.
The problem was it was sometimes too fast, the paying attention didn't really net critical results, or the 'sometimes' abilities just became 'all the time anyhow' abilities, like the group life-tap heal on my blood mage that was triggered by crits on a character running like 45% crit rate that was almost exclusively spamming abilities that could crit. Sure, it was awesome, especially in raids, having a HUGE group heal pretty much always available, but it got to the point I had to take it out of my spell macros because my best heal was firing off too often and I couldn't get any dots or DDs down. That's a backwards problem to have on a damage-based healer and made what started out as a life-saver sometimes spell pretty mundane. :P
I'm all for spell fizzles, spell misses, resists, weapon types, damage types, mob vulnerabilities and limiting active spells/abilities and all that kind of thing. It makes you have to be ready to react and capable of it.
Planning for encounters, paying attention to circumstances, and then using your chosen tools to best handle the situation sounds awesome to me, and like something I haven't experienced in many modern mmos.
Definitely don't want a design by committee , but there probably will be certain mechanics here and there he'd like to see the breakdown on of folks who actually intend to support and play.
If they don't design by committee, how will they determine critical design decisions such as pirates or ninjas?
This thread reminds me of the days of Vanguard except no Brad chiming in....
Oh shit son! Brad is here! Fuck yeah! Its on!
Last edited by mkopec; 01-08-2014 at 06:06 AM.
I guess I have some reading to do.
I know everyone's lost in a sea of theorycrafting, but I really hope the team does something nice with the soundtrack. I'm a sucker for a good OST and anxious to see who is handling that end of Pantheon. Whatever tier I back, that needs to be a part of the package.
Yup, need another Kelethin theme.
I can space out to that track for days. Instant nostalgia.
Sure you can use them in combat, but I think any class-defining non-damaging abilities wouldn't fall into the same category as literal combat spells that are part of a rotation.
So, in my opinion there has to be also be a load out for non-combat abilities, or anything that might be classified as a non-core combat ability.
Also, the movement in GW2 is terrible… feels like you're ice skating all the time. The dodging is a nice element, but I'd prefer to see more precise movement of my character as in WoW or even SW:TOR. That feel is a big part of the enjoyment for me, and a key reason I dropped GW2 pretty quickly.
Out of all seriousness, EQ's music honestly added to the gameplay at least in my opinion. I still go back and listen time to time for a dose of nostalgia.
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The music is a major point of nostalgia for me. I also really like Vanguard's as well, its very fitting to the zones, good music, and its not overpowering.
I want my UI to look like this
And not like this
And for the record I like EQ2 better than GW2, but I think GW2's UI is much cleaner (the main reason for this is their lack of 90 spells on the screen at once). I also want to point out that I do NOT like that each slot on GW2 is limited to a specific type of spell. I think we should have between 8-15 slots to mix and match however we choose.
Last edited by Amaru; 01-08-2014 at 01:34 PM.
I think it's safe to say most of us want a traditional and simple UI with limited buttons. My other issue is how many new games do 'actiony' combat. I think MMOs should focus on first person strategic combat that's group based, and not on twitchy fighting, personally. GCDs are a good thing.
If we're worried about limited load outs, I'd like to see the same applied to melee.
I was playing my monk on live some, on Test...and I have like 20 buttons now. All "discs" that were originally more of "oh shit" buttons, which have now completely replaced innate skills (like kick, round kick, flying kick, etc) as extra "hit when on CD" buttons.
Yes, I know there's a proper rotation and blah blah blah if you want to get technical. Point stands though.
We all also love EQ's clickies, I'd bet? Usually those get hotbarred too though. How do people feel clickies fit into the "reduce hotbar bloat" situations?
If you think GW2 is twitch combat, there are a whole lot of other games that would like to speak with you.
In terms of hotkeys and shit, I think I'd like at most 2 full bars of skills for a given class(standard 12 slots bars, so 24abilities per class). Could have more if they're like cosmetics and super situational stuff like self illusions and what not. Then about 1 bar of items/consumables/clickies. I think it wouldn't hurt to restrict the amount of active clickies you can have. Say 3 or 4. You can slot them(so you can still use an item that has a clicky effect without using its clicky if it happens to also have good stats) and no combat swapping. Also buffs from clickies drop if you change the item, don't want to spend 10mins after every death gear swapping shit to buff myself.
24 seems like a solid number to me to have a lot of situational but useful abilities and shit. Half of that would be just that though, either longer cooldowns or situation specific spells, your main abilities should be between 6 and 10. Definitely don't want the limited bar systems, they always say shit like "oh but you can choose what you put on your bar and make builds, such novelty" but it's fucking shit when you play it, you're ultra limited in your "choices" and once a fight starts you're fucked if you didn't get the proper shit which is almost always since you don't want situational abilities on a small bar, you only want the most efficient ability that's usable in most situations. I didn't mind in GW1 because you truly had choice, there were like 120 abilities per class and like 8 or 10 whatever slot plus you could dual class, so you could make real builds, but GW2 is the complete opposite and is boring as fuck. Not as boring as Wildstar, but still boring.
EQ2s ability bloat, heroic system, and spam is by far the worst combat system ever created, in my opinion. If they wanted to instantly make EQ2 a much, much better game they could completely scrap it and put EQs system on top of it.
It's a shame Smed doesn't have the balls to completely revamp EQ2. I guess he figures that ship has sailed, and he's probably right. If he had done it in 2006 though the game would be far more popular.
EQ2 is a nightmare with hotkeys but I agree with Amaru, too. A lot of people hate on it, but I actually enjoyed some elements of it (Kunark expansion was a highlight for me). It doesn't help that by the time GW2 launched I'd been exhausted with the genre for years and I don't think an MMO has ever pushed the concept of "fuck grouping" harder than it. Their "everyone gets equal exp for participating in any regard" was a horrible idea.
GW2 should be commended for trying some new things, but if PRotF is "The modern, challenging, group-focused MMO Game" then obviously there's very little from GW2 in the way of group-based class and content design that Brad & team can take inspiration from.
To be clear even in limited "active abilities" situations, please do not limit WHERE abilities can go... that is just horrible and restrictive nonsense
I think you mentioned a sweet spot there, 24 abilities, 12 combat, 12 buff/other. If you are talking that number now you are basically getting a skill every other level assuming 50 levels... that's a pretty cool amount. I would see that as top end for a healer that does DPS, 6 heal/cures, 6 damage spells, then the other 12 for ( clickies, buffs, anything else you want to hotbar ).
I would imagine melee fighters would be less, likely 6-10 only needed at all.
Last edited by shabushabu; 01-08-2014 at 03:55 PM.
1-4 on keyboard. either alt keys for 1-4. or q,e,r,f.
space jump, v block/dodge, shift run.
2 on mouse 1, and mouse 2.
8-10 skills, +jump/block/run/maybe crouch.
Can't argue with full remapping.
And yes, many options for those 8-10 slots would be nice. (pita to balance though. theres always one or two RIGHT skills, and tons of wrong ones.)
And as many out of combat skills as you want.
Factions that matter. Nothing hard coded. And a class that can cast illusions and their factions with it.
I would like to see limited skills like others mentioned. This lends itself to a more balanced game as well. The Secret world stands out as doing so recently and the system worked pretty well. You got to choose a limited amount of skills to place in to your hotbar and this is what you played with until you changed it. This can lead to be a very strategic system of picking and choosing the right skills or spells to use and I assume easier to balance as well. Keep in mind that this is for your core skills. Shit like buffs, clickies, other non-combat skills should not be included in this limited "combat bar".
I hate how bloated these games are getting with combat and magic abilities. A combat system does not have to be overly complex with 30-50 choices of different skills that do the same shit but with varying degrees and slightly different names to be a rewarding and deep combat system.
Someone mentionned automation systems of FF10/12 and it spawned something in my mind. I wonder if it would work, because that could change the gameplay of support/healer classes. Think of a simple combat system driven by auto-attack(s) (and possibly an auto-heal function for healers) then add an opportunity system layer where different roles gets visual notifications to react to something that happened or that is going to happen.
Warrior auto-attacks, position the spider for the group, then receives a warning that his target is readying a powermove. Warrior trigger his block move and mitigates damage of said powermove, so far, nothing gamebreaking, it's been seen before. Since the tank reacted in time, the powermove was countered and open a backstab opportunity for the rogue, also the move added a poison effect on the tank, healer receives a warning that a party member has been poisonned, his reaction might even determines the final effect of the poison (if not removed before 5 seconds, target is stunned for 10 seconds). Five minutes in the fight, the bard gets a warning that a mana user is running out of mana, he then trigger his mana song.
Basically, use opportunities to notify players that something requires their attention (instead of multiple UI elements) and to engage players in the fight like the rotation of skills was said to do when WoW came in. More engaging combat than EQ is good, but the bloating of skills and UI elements needs to be under control.
I don't like the thought of automaton at all and I find it sad that some people don't want to do anything but sit in one spot the whole time. Immersion, yeah right. Your system sounds like a modern attempt at Dragon's Lair from the early 80s. Look on the screen for your prompt, do what prompt says or else. That's even worse than the stupid ring of fire, and prompt colorings during a boss fight. Your system would have people waiting for a prompt to do anything while auto-attack did most of the work. Draegan's thoughts are much better. You have abilities and you choose when to use a certain set or not. Some quick defensive actions if the mob is rearing up. Backstab when YOU figure it's best rather than when the game tells you to. Talk about making games for mouth-breathers.
Also related to it , no huge red circles when a mob does an aoe , let me figure the distance to get the hell out of dodge , by, wait for it , WAIT FOR IT ,(I know this is going to be shocking and controversial), by figuring it for myself by guessing/judgement , and holy shit, dying if need be.
I would love to see a game focus less of world size (especially to later have a fast travel that kills the point of having a large world) and extra land with every expansions, to instead have the world evolve with every expansions. Basically, expansions (and patches) change the world without expanding it. Would also allow older players to tell tales about how the world used to be to newer players =P
Now, that doesnt mean "copy WoW". I want them to take the time when designing mobs to give each a very rudimentary behaviour pattern. Like Diablo 1 did 15 years ago. EQ itself had a bit of this with some mobs fleeing early and some never. Apply this to leashing: if you have a guard, that guy leashes early because it's his job to stand guard and not chase you throughout the whole Karanas. If you have an undead, it's gonna follow you to zone. A predator animal, follows you a fair distance *and* has chase speed faster then you unless you have SoW, no outrunning griffons or lions. I'm sure you can think of some more examples, and you dont need a difficult script for every monster, just some basic patterns that have some differences to add flavor and immersion to the world.
Things should also leash if you get too far away from them or they lose sight of you for too long. Rooting a mob and running half way across a zone away from it but it still manages to use its radar to run straight for you when root breaks is just as silly as mobs leashing if you run 20 feet away.
No big red circles for AOEs wont work because pretty much every aoe that uses a big red circle in most games is just some random ground spawn effect and without the circle you would just have no clue at all where the AOE was. If you use that type of AOE you need the big red circles. Now I guess you could just get rid of that type of AOE entirely, but thats a different argument.
Last edited by Creslin; 01-08-2014 at 05:19 PM.
Devs have always said that when they tested A players typically hated it because it was a pain in the ass and jot fun.
Probably used bad players, but that's what I always heard.
I think game managers want a minimum of frustration and a maximum of grinding in a simple manner with many carrots to enable 'progress'.
You see this in WOW. You see this in Wildstar. You see this in TESO. We keep saying we want a living world with in depth AI and meaning, and they keep ignoring that and going back to the same design using the same tired metrics and bad logic to justify their decisions, then wonder why 90% of us are gone after 90 days or far less.
Reactive abilities are fine as long as there is a distinct sound that comes with the triggers. IMHO they only fit certain weapon users like weapon & shield or a fencer type. I'm not a fan of group combo attacks some of the games had.
I think we're missing something very important - why doesn't Brad have an awesome avatar yet?
Or even just a screenshot of Aradune :3
DoTA 2 / Dark Souls 3 / Lurking P99 / D3 Profile
Waiting for Shadow Bane Emu to finish
I agree as well with the leashing. I'd like to change up the big AoEs. I know the reasoning for big red circles and it adds to Boss fight variety, changes up fights, etc but I've always found them kind of dumb. My big spell/ability works only in this red circle right here! Or these here! If an ability uses a straight line, graphical effects could show the 'power bolt'. Or the shockwave. If he calls down lightning, shouldn't it truly be random? If it's a wide area effect, it could do a bit less damage, be negated, defended against, etc and actually hit an entire area. These effects happen even with the red line and people still have to learn boss fights. They could also use small effects to give a slight warning instead of the line. Maybe steam rising from the ground in an area where a molten attack is rising from? This might be way too much trouble for any developer but it would be nice to see.
edit: wow can't believe that ROI guild is still active: Realm of Insanity - Xegony, Everquest
Last edited by Astral Projection; 01-08-2014 at 06:12 PM.
One of the big things that I miss from the old days of EQ was sitting in a group socializing while the puller went and grabbed mobs. This social interaction is what made EQ more real to me rather than just a game. As soon as WoW and EQ2 came around, I was constantly moving through dungeons. Kill mob, move, kill mob, move, kill mob, move... non stop. There was no time for socializing what so ever. I rarely knew anybody in the groups anymore than I did before joining the group. They were just random tank, random healer, random dps, etc.
I would love if there was viable group content in the game that was optimal for the old style of "pull to camp" combat. Give those people that like to crawl their dungeons as well, but I want to sit on my big fat butt and actually socialize with my groups while we spend a few hours each night killing mobs. I want to KNOW the people playing the characters that I spend over 1,000 hours a year playing with rather then just knowing it was some random people.
I just read the latest story on the RoI website and lol'ed the entire time, hilarious.
Wanted to say like Draegan mentioned players will often tell you they want "X" cause "X" be it instancing, welfare epics, everyone doing the same content, easy soloing ect.. is "fun". the problem is yes people suck, but they often don't actually know what they really want. Designers listening to this shit and implanting it is the root of sorry state of the mmo market today.
It's like how New Labour would focus group everything to determine policy's, presentation ect... It won Blair 3 elections but it screwed the country, the politics and his party over in the long run.
PS: Also Brad I felt like giving VG a try for the first time based on peoples posts about it in this thread. Having only got to level 11 It has made me MUCH more confident you can give us the game we want! VG I can already tell has the best classes in any modern game by a mile. It has/had a ton of good idea's. Feels very tragic what happened to it, but I am enjoying playing it now far more then EQ2.
Anyone on VG wanna do stuff, or just help out a newb I am Whidon and Whidona.
I like UI mods on MMOs because it allows the community to help the user, but a UI parsing combat text will always give a player a reason to stop looking at hte world and start looking at the UI, which I think is bad and lowers the skill cap. Black and white was a bold experiment in removing the UI but I think it can be looked at for ways to allow the player to play a game without staring at a UI.
Last edited by Tuco; 01-08-2014 at 06:55 PM.
Basically, you are right with general philosophy. But if Pantheon wants to succeed (whatever that means), it must find a way to combine this philosophy of old MMOS with new mechanics and be kind of innovative as well, instead of being EQ 1999 copy.
Last edited by Tinius; 01-08-2014 at 06:39 PM.
^^ Me too!
Merlin, this wont happen. If you are expecting EQ 1999 with a fresh graphical overhaul, good luck. I can almost guarantee you that this game wont be anything near it.
One thing about the glory days of EQ, or whatever game you popped your cherry with... They were appealing because there were many unknowns. About the world, about the game mechanics, etc.
And any new game will still have their share of unknowns, but that sheer sense of wonder in the early genre is probably gone forever. It doesn't mean some of the mechanics and systems weren't good ideas, but it will be very hard for *any* new MMORPG to escape the general tropes of the genre and truly surprise us with a new adventure. In my opinion of course.
Like EQ next is aspiring to be from what I read about in the beginning days seems to fit this bill. (Not sure of now because I have not been following it.)
Here's my selfish and very small request: EQ tracking system.
I want to see no flying mounts. I hate the way they make the world feel safe and small. Yea you could fill the sky with killer pigeons to still make it feel dangerous while flying, but that is a bit dumb imo. I also prefer to play an MMO where upgradable/customizable ground and boat mount systems are in place. If you have those and then put flying mounts in it basically makes everything else obsolete. (I imagine people will wtf flame me for this)
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