Well, could always do what you do when getting your child a new pet.
"Alright, I'll buy you a kitten, but it's YOUR responsibility. You feed it you clean it, you maintain its cage etc."
I feel this could be translated to babies.
My wife and I will be married 2 years next month.
She's on birth control right now, the Nuva(sp) ring. Been working so far.
However, she wants kids as I guess most women want a baby or two at some point. I, however, cannot stand kids and have ZERO desire to have kids.
I know people say "When they're your own it's different" but I don't see it. I don't like being around kids, I don't like them hanging on me, hugging me, near me. I really do prefer to be in another room away from kids or at best not even in the same vicinity as children.
I know there's a lot of Dads on these forums and some moms too.
I'm curious to hear both sides, from the moms and dads. Anyone felt like I do and now think differently?
I'm not sure what I'm going to do when she starts putting the screws to me about having a baby.
Well, could always do what you do when getting your child a new pet.
"Alright, I'll buy you a kitten, but it's YOUR responsibility. You feed it you clean it, you maintain its cage etc."
I feel this could be translated to babies.
Did you discuss that before getting married?
If you don't want kids, don't have kids. Its not fair to bring a kid into the world if you will resent them. If its a deal breaker for your wife, you might need to rethink the marriage.
But this should have been a discussion before getting married.
Outside of personal desire, one of the main reasons I want kids is that almost everyone I know that has had them has talked about how much they have enriched their lives. I personally think of myself as pretty awesome and am fairly certain if given the chance I can produce an offspring even more awesome than myself. I can't put my finger on anything specific, but when I see parents out there with their kids teaching them to do the things that I love to do (skiing, mountain biking, baseball, etc.) I get envious that I don't have that in my life. I also just think of what would have been if my parents decided they didn't want kids. I feel so lucky and blessed in my life and I want to pass that gift on.
It was discussed before the marriage, she doesn't want kids immediately. We both wanted to get established financially first, which we have.
Before our marriage we agreed that it would be at least 3 years before we attempt having a baby, but I don't think I'll be ready... I don't think I'll ever be ready.
However, she did bring it up the other day in regards to my age. I'm 30 years old and not getting any younger.
It is a topic we discuss from time to time, but it's not a "deal breaker"... I don't think. Yet, anyway.
But the problem is that you knew that she wanted kids. For sure. And it doesn't sound like you were honest with yourself or her about the situation.
If you don't want kids and you don't think you're going to change your mind you need to seriously consider ending the marriage now to be fair to both of you.
I would say that I am much closer to my dad in my "older" age now than most of my friends with theirs. My dad can, for lack of a better term, "hang" with me and my friends and vice versa. I can really see and hang out with my dad on a day-to-day basis and he can relate to my life because he is not that far removed from it. Where as a lot of my friends dads will go into the "back in my day" routine.
Basically I can still be friends with my dad. I feel if you are to much older and/or removed from you kids generation you won't be able to relate to them as well.
In the end the answer is if you don't want kids, tell your wife and discuss where you want to go next. Don't mislead or have the kid to try and salvage the marriage.
If it is just an "I don't feel ready" thing, no one ever feels ready. It is always a shock exactly how much your life changes, and you always feel like you have more left to do before you have the kid. If you legit do not want kids, well then you need to have a talk with your wife. Sooner rather than later.
I always wanted kids, that was just something I knew I wanted and without it I would not feel like my life is complete. Of course that isn't necessarily true, your perspective on life changes as you go on. But that is how I felt, and if my wife didn't share my feelings on this and didn't tell me, I would have been pretty pissed.
From Wall Street Journal:What's That Ticking Sound? The Male Biological ClockOlder fathers made headlines several years ago when researchers at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine reported that a man over 40 is almost six times as likely as a man under 30 to father an autistic child. Since then, research has shown that a man's chances of fathering offspring with schizophrenia double when he hits 40 and triple at age 50. The incidence of bipolarity, epilepsy, prostate cancer and breast cancer also increases in children born to men approaching 40.
I can't advise you you to have kids or not, but I have friends that have said the same as you(don't like kids)and the truth is that they were just afraid.None of them regret having kids and are happier in life.
Honestly I don't think many guys really like kids all that much, at least not the way women do. However, once you have your own child it will change everything for that child who is your flesh and blood. You'll still despise all these other people's brats though and now you'll have to deal with them due to your kid(s). But if you had a kid the lightbulb would go on for you and all the parental feelings will manifest.
If you strongly felt you never wanted to have kids then you shouldn't have gotten married. You should know every woman getting married is going to want kids at some point, even if she's a type A career driven women when you first get married. Having a stable home and mother for kids is the only reason for a man to ever get married in the first place, otherwise your gender is on the losing end of the deal in every possible way. So you dun fucked up.
My wife and I tried for a year to have one, shortly after our niece was born. I'm so glad we didn't have one. She's an awesome kid. But if I have to babysit her for an hour by myself? Fuck my life.
I'm saying the vast majority of people would be much happier if they weren't parents. People are compassionate, so I'm not saying they'd kill their kids. But they're lying to themselves when they say they're so much happier because of their kids.
You won't be the first reluctant father this world has ever seen. There's nothing much anyone is going to say to you that's going to be personally useful.
From what you've said the stark reality seems to be that you made a pact with this woman and it's come time that your wife wants to be paid. You're either gonna have to share your toys or take them home. Shit be changing. If you deny her a child shit gonna get ugly... no matter how nice she is and how much you love each other.
I'm not down on you at all. I honestly do hope for your sake it's simple reluctance and apprehension and not that you thought she'd forget about the three year plan. Cause if that's what it is, you're boned dude.
Chaos is absolutely right. Being a role model and a teacher, a guide to life, that is an important and fulfilling endeavor. You may not think so now but I highly doubt that there are childless geriatrics out there saying that they are glad that they never did anything of real importance. Of real importance, yes, that's the reality, what else is the average person going to do that has such a great and deep impact on other human beings? Having a good family for generations to come is the goal of life.
As for you and your wife, you definitely need to discuss this. If she wants to have children and you don't you are going to waste her time and you are never going to make her happy. If you force yourself into having children with your current pussy attitude you are going to have an unhappy family. That's my opinion but I think that it's the truth.
I never really liked kids either. And yes it is that different when its your own.
And Chaos is exactly right. It gives life a meaning other than yourself.
Last edited by mkopec; 12-09-2012 at 11:26 PM.
After having kids, I couldn't imagine my life ever feeling complete without them. There is a level of joy that you get as a parent that I don't think can be met any other way.
If kids are not for you, then they are just not. There is nothing wrong with that. If your wife wants them tho, to deny her that.... I honestly could not imagine what that would be like. There will always be a part missing in her life and you guys will probably always have problems because of it.
You need to figure it out fast. It isn't fair to either of you - to have kids you don't want, or to deny her kids she desperately does.
Kids are hard work even when you REALLY want them. If you don't want them, you aren't going to be doing anyone any good by having them. That being said, I wouldn't even consider it until your marrige hits 7-9 years (the time most fall apart), because the only thing you don't want more than having kids you don't want, is having to spend all your money on kids you don't even have and don't want as part of the divorce.
Not to mention the effect on the kids if you don't come around to ever wanting them, which is possible.
After age 30/35/40 the risks of everything unpleasant that can happen to your hypothetical child increase drastically.
I don't have kids, but I would like to. I don't think people that don't want kids are shitty people necessarily, but I think to be a decent human being you have to do something that is unselfish with your life and I don't mean volunteering at a soup kitchen for 1 night every 3 years. If you go through life doing nothing but maximizing your own comfort and convenience, then you are a waste of space and IMO will not actually increase your happiness. Doing a good job raising your own children is the easiest way to make a positive impact on the world and it IS a huge sacrifice of your own comfort and convenience but I think most people who actually raise their kids consider it the most important thing that they have done in life and in most cases they are right. On the other hand, if you're not going to do a good job raising your kids, for fuck's sake don't have them.
This makes absolutely no sense. If you're going to justify having a kid because you're "doing good for society" why not do good for society by your own actions? Why not adopt a kid (there are tons out there) instead of creating one yourself if your main desire is to make a better tomorrow? Why not strive every day to be a good person?
Adopting a kid is great, and clearly a noble thing to do. I don't know what "striving every day to be a good person" means exactly, but it sounds like something you would say you're doing when you're not doing anything. I did say that raising your kids is the "easiest" way to live an unselfish life certainly not the only way.
Last edited by BrutulTM; 12-11-2012 at 02:59 AM.
Last edited by Tarrant; 12-11-2012 at 04:46 AM. Reason: Enough with this comment and mature up or leave this thread.
I'd say you didn't read very carefully then.
I see what you were saying. Being a good parent and raising good children goes a long way to making you a good person in general I would say. There isn't much else that can be done by most people that is as beneficial for society and is so completely selfless.
As I said before, I highly doubt that there are many elderly people who are happy that they didn't have any children. It may seem like you want to have more fun now but it's one of those things that you do for the betterment of yourself and for other in this case. It's like going to school, at some point you probably disliked going to school, you knew best and would rather have fun with your friends or doing other things with your time. The same idea applies to having a family. If you are a bit immature you may think that making your wife happy, having a good family, raising, guiding, and helping your children, etc. Are not very important, but I guarantee that if you look back on that time in the future you will see that a family was the way to go.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people that have kids and continue to live selfishly. I really believe though, that if you want to get satisfaction out of life, the best way to do it is to put other people before you in life and dedicate yourself to something other than your own comfort. Having kids won't force you to do this, but you are more likely to do it for your own kids than for anyone else.
IMO, having kids seems to be a pretty selfish thing to do. You're basically trying to feel good about having your genes in another person in the world that you can somewhat shape and influence. Then again, it's probably an enjoyable experience in the long run, unless your kid goes rebel-mode in their teenage years.
From the posts so far, none of us have kids that are all grown up (20+), so I'm not sure everyone can comment on the experience of parenting overall. I'm thinking the most enjoyable parenting years are 3-10 or so.
having kids is a selfish thing to do? You're reaching.
Only read the OP.
You either want them or you don't. Something you and your wife should of talked about and hammered out before you got married as I figure it will be a rather big point of contention in your relationship.
Children are an investment. Continuation of you, your beliefs and how you bring them up in the world. From a male stand point there isn't much interesting going on with children for the first couple of years besides the obvious mile stones. Women really enjoy pregnancy and those first years and bond heavily with them and its definitely harder for males. I'm not saying you don't care, don't bond or anything like that its your kid and it is different. Its just a bit more ingrained in woman and as a man I think you need to make more of an effort on average.
That said, a father's role in their son or daughters life is one of the most important bonds. Perhaps more so than the mothers since that tends to be stronger naturally. There are enough kids with fucked up daddy issues that we don't need any more. Whatever you do, love and nurture your children (and your wife! they learn from you and how you treat her), don't be afraid to show them the RIGHT way to act and give them a huge advantage in the world. So many little ass holes in the world today are a result of not having a proper father figure in their lives.
Our role is one of the most important, yet most neglected. So if you aren't willing to work through it (you are never "ready") then don't do it. Just be a man and don't string your girl along for the ride because her "having a baby clock" ticks while yours, relatively, does not. So if you are going to fuck her over on a perfectly natural and normal female desire be sure and let her know early so she can either deal with it or move on.
Last edited by Kedwyn; 12-11-2012 at 05:32 AM.
Yes, it is. I'm approaching this thread as a general "kids or no kids" thread because ultimately anything we tell the OP isn't going to help his situation - he has to look deep into himself, sit down and sort it out with his wife.
Let's not pretend that having kids is some selfless "give your life to another person" activity. The reason you have kids is you want to perpetuate your ideas / genes / character / etc. /etc. in the world. Despite all the difficulties of raising a kid, this is likely the reason you still feel warm and fuzzy inside. You decided to have a kid to feel good about yourself, and you've learned that happiness and joy come from putting your effort into a person who is uniquely "yours" and partly "you."
Your decision to have a kid won't benefit the world in any way. If people took the time they spent raising their kids and did public service, they'd likely feel more accomplished and actually make a difference for others.
I'm not here to dissuade anyone from having kids. I just don't jive with the idea that having kids is a selfless thing to do. You're essentially forcing another person into the world who has less control over their life than you, and you find it amusing that they say funny and do funny things that demonstrate their ignorance of life and the world. Yes, this is pessimistic, but I find that my best moments with children are looking into their eyes with the knowledge that life is so much different than they envision.
Life ain't anything but easy. Children are a great way of distracting yourself from thinking about the problems of life (or possibly your boring marriage? ). They're basically a guaranteed 15-16 years of an interesting / difficult / eye-opening / fun lifestyle with a man/woman who you love / get along with. Take it for what you will. Kids will provide you with the emotional, mental, and physical stimulation you need to be more lively and perhaps enjoy life more.
Last edited by cosmic_cs; 12-11-2012 at 07:20 AM.
It isn't rocket science. I fear for the human race reading your posts.
Either you want kids or you don't, and you do what it takes to support them if you do.
I had a really shitty reply typed up taking you to task for being a fucktard, but new board new chaos.
It seems like you are projecting shit onto other people as far as emotions revolving around children are concerned. Because the bottom line is that you can't know someone's motivations any more than you can know evelys has a penis.
Saying that someone deciding to have a child won't benefit the world in any way is just a sad, sad attitude to have. And wrong. If Einstein or Ghandi or whoever's parents had adopted an anal only policy, the world would be a worse place. People accomplish things, they do, and your influence over your children can impact their reach in the world.
I'd never say it is a selfless thing to do, but it isn't selfish either. It just is. This is why we are here. Have kids, don't fuck them up, that is the meaning of life. Your description of looking into a child's eyes as the best moment, that shit is sad. My best moments with my kids are teaching them, or watching them teach me. Or laughing and joking with them, playing, having fun. Not having a sad. You need some wellbutrin or something.
I'd reply to you, but the whole Einstein / Gandhi example is hyperbole. You can make a big difference yourself, but you'd rather take the easy way out.
How is that hyperbole? How am I taking the easy way out? You have no idea what I am doing, just like you have no idea what my motivations were to have kids. You are projecting.
Do you agree with me that having kids means you'd be stuck in your own family bubble for quite some years (unless you're financially secure and can afford people to look after your kids)?
Do you agree that people can make a big difference in their community without being Einstein or Gandhi?
Do you agree that a lot of people have kids because they're "fun," "cute," "rewarding," etc. so on? Look at the real reason people have kids. Kids are a great way to spend your time with your wife/husband. Like I said, they keep you occupied (by occupied, I mean stimulated) emotionally, mentally, and physically. They provide great motivation for you to work harder at work so you can support them. They may even provide a reason to live / keep your marriage alive. Maybe you didn't know / expect this before you had kids, so I'm not questioning anyone's motivation.
I guess I just have a stick up my ass from Charles saying having kids is "so completely selfless," which is something I don't agree with.
I'm thinking devoting 3 months of your time to developing your speaking / social / motivational skills and then volunteering to teach elementary school kids for a few hours a week would be more beneficial than raising 2 of your own kids to adulthood, lol.
No, yes, no, he's wrong about being selfless, you're fucking high.
Just don't be this guy.
I think that you could make a pretty good case that the decision to have a child is selfish, or at least most people are not doing it to make the world a better place, but if you want to be a good parent, that's where the selfishness has to end. If you're putting an educated, healthy, well-adjusted human being out into the world 20 years later, you have made the world a better place IMO. It helps offset the people like the parents of some foster kids that I am acquainted with who left their kids in a room for several years and now they are 3 and 4 years old and can't talk and aren't potty trained and despite the best efforts of their foster parents will probably wind up on drugs and in jail 15 years from now.
If we could get people who aren't capable of raising children to stop having them, and people that have children to do a good job of raising them, we would solve about 90% of the world's problems.
Hey guys, this is the grown up forum, act like grown ups and stop being assholes. You can shit on each other everywhere else on the board.
Last edited by cosmic_cs; 12-11-2012 at 04:29 PM.
I know people that have told me they had kids because they wanted someone to take care of them in their old age. What would you say is an unselfish reason for having a kid?
One point that you never hear raised, and that is almost impossible to argue with, is that if you're legitimately concerned about the environment the single best thing you can do for it is to not reproduce.
I'm a father and I still can't stand kids. I absolutely love being a father and I love my son to death though. I wouldn't change it for anything.
I think the issue I have with kids the majority of the time is the parents though. Letting their kid run around a store knocking everything on the shelf down, etc...
I don't know if this helps you at all, but I can't stand kids, but I love being a father, and I love my son more then anything.
PSN - Vithe | WiiU - VitheU | Steam - WiZZiE82 | battle.net - Vithe#1343
Personally, I only give a shit about the environment as a place for humans to live. There are those that think there would be something noble if the human race allowed itself to die out to improve things for the trees and insects and shit, but I don't care about that. Some rare salamander doesn't give a shit if its race dies out.
None of what you posted takes in to account that a child born in a developed country is likely to consume an order of magnitude more resources in their lifetime than one born in a poor or developing country, nor that there's about a 99.9999% chance that said child will never have any measurable impact on technology or anything else other than simply consuming resources.
If you don't care about the environment, then that's fine. It's a moot point to you then. But if you do, having a child is by far the most environmentally damaging act you can commit unless you're one of the Koch brothers or something.
People (rightly)ridicule others that don't have sex before getting married. I feel this is similar but much more important. But how do you test the water for something like this? Can't break up with a kid if you end up not liking it! Well, you can, but I'm nowhere near that much of an asshole. Can you do a trial run in foster care? Would that even be a comparable situation?
I have always thought that adoption is the most appropriate method of having a child for an educated individual in today's day and age. If we already have too many people in the world, why not just adopt?
I know this sounds heinous and uncouth, but if a woman's biology tells her to have a child, and a man's tells him to fuck everything, why are they held to different standards?
My mother has tried to explain this concept to me that women simply HAVE to have children, it's part of their destiny... Yeah, I call bullshit on that card.
Depends entirely on the woman -- but as hard as it is to believe for some of them it's not bullshit. It approaches meaning of life levels for some women.
I dunno, you can't talk about that in generalities. But have you ever dated a woman and you just KNEW without being able to explain it what a good mother she was going to be?
And then you accidentally left your watch on the bedstand because fuck that noise.
That's one of the reasons why I don't like kids, is because of the parents. Incapable pricks raising the laziest, shittiest generations of asshats. Thinking "Time-out" is a fucking punishment.
The other and probably biggest reason I hate kids, is because I worked at a daycare/preschool for 6 years. That is probably the best form of birth control right there.
Day in and day out made me wonder why anyone would want these little parasites running around and destroying everything and always getting sick and getting you sick. It doesn't get any better either.. they just get older turn into bigger assholes and then released into the world to be yet ANOTHER burden to society. Contributing only incompetence to the world.
Maybe my views will be like yours.. love my own, hate everyone elses.
But we didn't get married because we wanted kids. That wasn't our goal and wasn't the point of getting married... I don't think many people hop into a marriage for the sole purpose of popping out kids. They're in love and want to be with each other and get married... kids are just a "by-product" of marriage.
I agree for some women having kids is their ultimate goal in life, to be a mother they've always wanted or whatever... I'm just glad that having children isn't the "meaning of life" for my wife.
How do kids keep two people in love and occupied?
The same way couples stayed in love and occupied years before having kids...
It's like your alluding to ONLY kids can keep two people together and in love. That there's no hope for a couple without a child or 2.
He's trolling, and it can probably stop right about now.
Regarding my previous posts, I have strong views about stuff, and maybe I'm all wrong because I rarely give a shit about emotions and stimulation. I try my best to be logical and methodical in my life, and sometimes that doesn't complement the emotional side of people.
That sounds horrible.
And, like mr. cosmic here, I'm not trying to rile anyone or troll or whatever. That actually sounds horrifying to me. You "rarely give a shit bout emotions"? I mean, dude... that just makes me sad for you.
Last edited by chaos; 12-12-2012 at 08:27 AM.
I'm half of a childless couple nearing 40. I was ambivalent about kids, if she wanted them fine, but she doesn't. High powered research scientist that couldn't take the time off to deal with a pregnancy, and had no desire to do so anyway. She would've done it for me, but I wasn't going to force her. She is the one I found (or found me ) and made a life with, and she wasn't interested in children. So be it. We've talked about adopting, so maybe that is in the cards later.
I do think about what it would have been like, and I don't disparage parents in any way or think they made a mistake. I actually like kids despite not being a father.
Her research is cutting edge and contributing to science in a major way, so I suppose that will have to do for contribution to the species.
I hope it all works out for you no matter what you decide or what happens.
PSN - Vithe | WiiU - VitheU | Steam - WiZZiE82 | battle.net - Vithe#1343
My wife & I have discussed this to death, we've been married almost 9 years and don't have any plans for kids (I'm 34, she's 31). I don't have anything against kids, I have nieces & nephews that I love spending time with. I also love getting back to my quiet house after being around the mayhem. For me I enjoy my life, and don't really see what having a kid would get me. There's a lot of shit I still want to do, and a lot of goals/ambitions that I have that a kid would directly impede. Call it selfish if you want, I'm ok with that.
If my wife suddenly decides she wants one I'm fine with that, and if we had an oops I'd be fine with that too.
I think part of the reason it is different when it is your own is that there are times you can not like your kid (they can do some pretty rotten stuff!), but you always love them with every part of you. When you don't like other kids, you just don't like them.
No kids for me and my wife, we're both in our early forties and we have never had or ever will have any plans for kids. I hate them, she hates them even more which worked out well.
It may be selfish but the most responsibility I wish in life is to pay my bills on time and feed my dogs. I like all my freetime and I like having cash both of which gets sucked into the great blackhole called children....
It is hard to advise you on something like this. It is a deep personal choice. Each decision closes certain doors, and opens others. My son and daughter are my legacy, something that will live on until I die. They both are a cost financially and cut into my personal time a great deal, but as many a father have stated, well worth both sacrifices. Some people don't feel the same way, which is fine. If you are not ready, which could mean you will never be ready, you should not have kids.
The one thing I will say is this, because this I know for sure. The statement "I dont like kids". dont base your decision off of this. I fucking hate kids in general most of the time w/ few exceptions. That has not changed since I have had my son and daughter. I still cant stand it when some random kid from their school comes up to me and wants to converse, I wish I could just say "Fuck off kid, I am not here for you", but politeness gets the better of me. There IS a difference, something about knowing this human being came directly from you, derived from you, it is just different. Kind of like when you throw up all over the place, it is not quite as gross as when someone else throw's up all over the place. Dont let that thought influence your decision. What should influence you is how much time and dedication you have to give to others (specifically your wife and kid(s)) when you have them. Gaming time, personal time, any time except them time, all that gets diminished. If you cannot do this, dont have kids.
Last edited by Dis; 12-12-2012 at 11:01 PM.
Not a spelling nazi
Definitions of LOSE on the Web:
fail to keep or to maintain; cease to have, either physically or in an abstract sense; "She lost her purse when she left it unattended on her seat"
Definitions of LOOSE on the Web:
not restrained or confined or attached; "a pocket full of loose bills"; "knocked the ball loose"; "got loose from his attacker"
Dispair - Community - Diablo III
I've always enjoyed kids, but still don't have any of my own. Despite liking them, I'm still on the fence, because it is one thing to play with your friends or family members kids and then being able to go home to peace and quiet. Having your own you don't get that luxury.
Most likely though, my wife and I will start working on one or two in a couple years once we get out of graduate school. Really for me the deciding factor is my concern for my Wife in her later years.
Statistically, I'll be dead probably at least a decade before she passes strictly based on our age gap and life expectancy between males and females. And there is a significant geographic separation between us and her family, and honestly I'd be worried about her being lonely after I'm gone.
So in a way, my choice to have kids will probably be a selfish one, in the sense that I want her to have family available for her once I pass.
I don't understand why NOT having kids can be considered selfish at all. If you like your free time and money, you affect no one by not having kids (because your kids don't exist, duh?).
If you have a kid, you'll likely have trouble sleeping well for a few years. This will affect your ability to focus at work and on your other endeavors. Say you're a doctor and have a kid, then you wouldn't be able to have enough mental energy and clarity (from lack of sleep) to properly treat patients. Even if you were some software engineer at a company, your work would likely be poor while your baby wakes you up every night.
From a logical standpoint, it just seems like having a kid would actually impede your potential to contribute to society, especially since many people have kids in their middle-late 20s, which is considered to be the best time to formulate new ideas.
I don't think you know much about what it is like to have kids, and your logic is silly. People can do whatever they want with their lives, if they don't want kids then they don't want kids. Personally, when I hear people making arguments about free time and stuff it seems like immaturity to me. But I don't really care, like I said it is their life.
Last edited by cosmic_cs; 12-13-2012 at 05:53 AM.
I don't agree with that at all either., it doesn't seem the least bit reasonable to me. It seems like trying to turn the tables, not based on any kind of rational thought at all. But that was already hashed out earlier in the thread.
For Nova, somehow it seems a very important topic wasn't mentioned nearly enough by either of you. You honestly don't sound like you want kids so i do think it would be a mistake for you. It could definitely cause massive problems in your marriage and kids don't just go away. You and her need to have that talk now and you need to be honest before this hole gets deeper. Lesson learned at some point if you talk to her or not.
Cosmic, some of your ideas are spot on but you have a poor way of stating your opinion. It sounds trollish even though you make some good points. Your last point isnt one of them though. Your contribution to society is what you make of it. Single people get drunk, high, party, fuck anything that walks, dont care, etc,etc. Just because you are single, doesn't mean you are contributing to society more. A parent can see a different viewpoint, will work harder to support his kid, finds new empathy, and finds new levels of resolve they didn't know they had. i've seen the shy turn vocal and the anti-social do class trips because kids change you. It's not all roses and many parents fuck up from the start but your statements are way too general and set on a foundation of dirt. Mine are just as general but from the other viewpoint and both of us are right...sometimes.
Sorry, I'm talking about myself now. The thing that bugs me is that having a kid will limit my potential to affect society. I think I have a lot of good skills and can use them to change a lot of peoples' lives. I also know that I would enjoy having kids, but I tend to plan and organize my life based on results rather than sensual / mental stimulation. I wouldn't mind having kids, but personally, I think it'd be a selfish decision because I know I can do more without them.
The reason I'm argumentative about this topic is that I think my situation is partly true for most people. Even a single person who currently just parties / spends his free time playing games, his potential to benefit society is a lot better if he doesn't have kids. Again, I'm just thinking this based on averages and not targeting any specific person. It's difficult for me to comprehend that any decent person (not the "drunk, high, don't care" people you're talking about) doesn't agree that they can do more to benefit society without having kids (which is maybe why intelligent people are less likely to have kids?). It's a bad idea on my part to go into this argument, since it's convoluted and difficult to quantify and apply to individual cases. My ideas are poorly stated because I don't have an hour to think deeply and put them into words; I also have poor writing skills - although my grammar is usually decent.
Last edited by cosmic_cs; 12-13-2012 at 06:33 AM.
See, I think you have just decided that having kids would limit you somehow and you're rolling with that. It isn't true. I'm doing a hell of a lot more with my life now with 3 kids than I was before I had them. I don't feel limited, quite the opposite, I feel that my family empowers me. I'm not saying you have to have kids or even should, I just think that your central premise is off. You can have kids and still use those skills to change people's lives, you might even find that they motivate you.
Noob double post
Last edited by BrutulTM; 12-13-2012 at 07:31 PM.
What exactly do you think that you're going to do that the kids will interfere with? You keep talking about how you could do so much...so much what? Most people that don't have kids don't then dedicate their lives to helping the needy, they just live for themselves.
Also, I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but I didn't say that choosing not to have kids is selfish. I said that having kids is the easiest way to live an unselfish life, because to be a good parent, you have to put your kids ahead of yourself. Most people will not truly dedicate their lives to another person unless they are their own children. I'm talking about it from a life fulfillment standpoint and not a net benefit to society standpoint.
Last edited by BrutulTM; 12-13-2012 at 07:33 PM.
Lets be honest though, having a kid does limit you. You may not mind it personally, but for a large portion of their early life its an undeniable fact. You're working with less free time, often less disposable cash, and in a lot of cases less time with other adults and/or your spouse.
I have two brothers that are wonderful parents, their kids are great, etc. Neither has the freedom to do what they want like I do. I'm not saying my viewpoint is the better one or I'm a happier person for it or whatever, just that from a pure numbers perspective it's undeniable. They're both happy with their decisions, as I am with mine.
I don't know why you're so concerned about people living their lives as "unselfish." I'm selfish as shit. What's wrong with that? I'm considerate and not a complete asshole, so I don't see why I can't be allowed to do whatever the fuck makes me happy. Would kids hamper that? Absolutely. And...?
I think it's just time to admit you're a breeder Chaos.
Just admit it. Confession will free your soul.
I've never had kids. But it's for entirely personal reasons. I suppose you could call that selfish, but I don't know what else personal reasons would or could be. Kinda like calling water wet.
Trying to make an intellectual argument out of it pro or con strikes me as... crippled. Just the other day I was talking to a friend of mine. She's about 10 years older than me and has been fostering children. She's in the process of adopting a seven year old. We were talking about that for a while and she asked me why I don't have any children. I had to think about it a minute to get it into a form she would understand and that form turned out to be, "It's not that I dislike children. I like children just fine. I just wouldn't know what to do with them." I thought that was a pretty decent answer. But she was kinda confused by it. She said, "Well you just take care of them and you play with them."
Yeah.. I mean, pretty much.
It's really not an intellectual argument. hehe.
Several psychologist/psychiatrists in my family, and I remember a discussion about this very subject. Firstly, there are several studies that show an inverse correlation to happiness in the first few years of having children. The financial, social, and temporal burden is significant, and this takes a toll. However, adults with underage children in the house are less likely to suffer from depression. Next, children are almost universally considered the best part about reaching advanced age. Surveys/studies of senior citizens repeatedly show that there is very little to look forward to in old age except grandchildren. Lastly, deathbed interviews that inquire of regrets/best things people did in their lives, having children rarely is regretted, and is often noted amongst the best things in their lives in retrospect.
The psychology of happiness is such that people have a good idea what makes them happy at any given moment, but less of a clue as to what makes them happy long term. This is know as the hedonic treadmill. Things that make us happy now do not necessarily produce happiness in the future, and indeed may negatively affect happiness.
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