Traveling twice the speed limit because it was running late!
Words fail me....
The guy driving the train was bragging on Facebook in the past about how fast he gets the trains up to. Shame it took this sort of thing for it to come to light that hey, maybe he should be fired.
Traveling twice the speed limit because it was running late!
Words fail me....
I've been doing nothing but working and haven't had a chance to watch the news. Only reason I knew about this was because someone posted it on my Facebook.
I was in Japan when this happened.
Amagasaki rail crash
Ten months before the crash, the young driver had overshot a stop and underwent strict punishment. He was harshly reprimanded and had to write reports explaining his actions. When he found himself in the same situation later, he over-compensated for time and jumped the tracks while going way faster than he should have been. 107 fatalities, 562 injured.
I remember that any time a train was running late, someone was waiting to give you a ticket apologizing for the train's lateness (so that you could prove to your boss that you weren't responsible for being late). They take that very seriously. Meanwhile, using the STM metro (in Montreal) is kind of a crapshoot as you never really know when the whole system will shut down for an indeterminate amount of time.
Last edited by Tanoomba; 07-27-2013 at 02:06 AM. Reason: correction
Why are humans still even driving these things? I mean, I can understand having a human there for braking, or watching the tracks into and out of stations...but shouldn't it be a computer controlling the speeds around things like curves and what not? Or at the very least, a computer recording "rule breaking" and alerting a higher up.
Draegan is a faggoty piece of shit who sold the forum to mmorpg.com just to spite us. Register at the new site.
ReReRolled.org - A Gaming Community
they could definitely install some kind of speed limiter that failsafes for sharp turns
this fucker must have been on some whacky shit
Nightmare on Dead Man Curve: Killer Spain train driver going 120 mph
By ANDY SOLTIS
From With Times of London, Post Wire Services
Last Updated: 8:15 AM, July 26, 2013
Posted: 12:34 AM, July 26, 2013
A panicked Spanish train driver shouted that he was going at more than twice the speed limit “and I’m going to derail!” — moments before his eight cars flew off the tracks.
At least 80 people died, including one American, in the horrific crash, which was captured on chilling video.
Spanish media reported that one of the two drivers was heard telling railroad officials “I’m going 190 [kilometers per hour]” — or about 120 mph — as he headed into a sharp bend where the speed limit is only 50 mph.
A government official said the Madrid-to-Ferrol train may even have been going as fast as 137 mph.
Speculation on what caused the crash centered on Francisco José Garzon, one of the drivers. On Garzon’s Facebook page, deleted hours after Wednesday’s crash, a picture of a speedometer, apparently taken by Garzon inside a train cabin, showed the needle at 200 kph, or about 125 mph.
“Imagine what a rush it would be traveling alongside the civil guard [police], and passing them so that their speed traps go off, Ha ha,” Garzon wrote.
The newspaper El Pais said one of the drivers was trapped in the cabin and called the closest rail station — about two miles away in Santiago de Compostela — by radio after the train hurtled off the rails and burst into flames.
“We’re only human! We’re only human!” he was quoted as saying. “I hope there are no dead because this will fall on my conscience.”
The State Department said one US citizen died and five were injured.
A church in Arlington, Va., said that the woman who perished was Ana Maria Cordoba, an employee of their diocese.
Among those still hospitalized is Stephen Ward, 18, a Mormon missionary from Utah, who suffered a fractured vertebra in his neck, said his dad, Raymond Ward.
Ward said his son has told him he remembers a woman next to him being thrown across the train carriage and seeing bags fly.
Video footage from a security camera showed the train hurtling into a concrete wall at the side of the tracks as carriages jackknifed and the engine overturned. One carriage flew several yards into the air and landed on the other side of a high concrete barrier.
Almost 100 of the 247 people aboard were injured, and 35 of them, including four children, were in serious condition.
Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, a native of the northwestern town of Santiago de Compostela, toured the crash scene alongside rescue workers.
“For a native of Santiago, like me, this is the saddest day,” said Rajoy, who declared Spain would observe a three-day period of mourning.
Spanish officials said Garzon, who is hospitalized, would be questioned as soon as possible. He worked for the state rail company, Renfe, for 30 of his 52 years.
Officials said he had driven the Madrid-Ferrol route for more than a year and had taken control of the train from a second driver about 65 miles before the crash.
so wait a second, ON*STAR can literally shut a car off from almost anywhere but doing the same thing with a train going 3 times the speed limit would cost 50k pr rail mile? shiiit, might as well put GM in charge of the railroad.
How could it possibly cost that much?
Do you have to issue entirely new locomotives (the choo-choo part of the train, I assume those are still called locomotive engines)? Have the engines not undergone any sort of electronics modernization in the past 40 years?
I'm actually asking. If the standard fleet of locomotives is electronics poor, then I guess implementing any electronic oversight is gonna cost a shit pile of money. How many companies even built train locomotives anymore? Probably not too many, I'd guess.
How about we just put the system a mile or two before a curve instead of at every single mile. Hey we just saved a fuck load of money.
it could be something as simple as a speed gun, a camera or a sensor tied a stick every hundred or so feet that sends signals/images back to the train grid and the computer can just depower or shut the train down. its really just mathematics. if subject is moving from pont a to point b and he took x time to travel from one marker to another the speed can be computed and you have your answer
As for the guys' quotes, that's incredible. He's been doing this shit for thirty years and now he's pulling this kind of shit? It sounds like he went crazy.
And in 10 years or so Madison Square Garden will be removed to make way for a 200mph train system connecting NYC to D.C. in 90 minutes.
They need to get their act together because another issue that will come up in addition to recklessness will be hacking so even if a failsafe is active it needs to be hacksafe too.
PTC (positive train control) is the term for it, it is an add on the the railroad signal system (think traffic lights). It can send a signal to the locomotive to stop it if action is not taken to stop the train at appropriate times. Locomotives are full of computers and have event recorders in them (they don't prevent an accident, only tell the story after). The cars themselves have little to no technology, freight cars have only air brakes.
so why not install a gps based system on these trains that can monitor and control their speeds from a control room?
The wireless version is cheaper, but not very reliable. The PTC being installed now has equipment at every signal and in every locomotive. It knows track layout, speed restrictions, workers present etc, signal indication (stop, go, be ready to stop etc) they system has to never fail. The biggest issue is trains running into each other and blowing up a town, this incident with speeding sounds like the engineer was pulling a mass murder thing.
Read a nice article in conjunction with this, asking if this will be another reason against high speed rail coming to America. Then it went on to talk about how Obama has been trying to give away money to the states for it but the states have been rejecting it for stupid reasons. It's also struggles due to the US insisting upon three times the safety requirements that the Euros and Asians have making the trains far more expensive if not impossible to build.
Pretty standard American silliness.
Pnuematic train tubes for the win.
*is killed by oil and car entrepreneurs*
I would've figured oil/automotive/airline lobbyists worked in some kind of non-sense reason to kill it.
An article I read indicated that in Spain when the train was traveling on high-speed only tracks it would be largely automated. But on the lower speed, mixed tracks where other slower passenger trains and cargo trains would run, it would be controlled by the driver. I would imagine it's difficult to fully automate those systems, given their complexity. Rail systems in Europe are anything but simple, as Tuco claimed.Originally Posted by Lithose
Head on collision with passenger trains in Switzerland.
Last edited by Jysin; 07-29-2013 at 11:07 PM. Reason: Photo add
Thread should just be named "The derailed thread".
The problem is not the technology. the problem is idiots behind the wheel. This guy was obviously not qualified or was too reckless to be in charge of the lives of others. You cant prevent nor fix stupid. This instance sadly is one of those events.
It seems like it wouldn't be that much work, as in less than 5000 gazillion dollars, to have onboard systems with the maps laid in and regulation of individual components in the system. "Curve coming up, momentum is a bitch, we need to slow this train down starting now, fuck what our suicidal engineer says" sorts of things.
But maybe they already do that much? You don't hear too much about trains derailing around turns because they were going too fast.
Now look at high speed rail, which is more expensive to maintain, and think about going from Albuquerque to Phoenix with a couple hundred riders a day and think of the colossal money sink it would be. On top of that, not everyone wants to go at the same time. Planes are far more flexible as far as times and the fact that they only need to carry 30-60 people to justify the trip. People get really romantic about the idea of trains, but it only makes sense financially when each train can carry literally tens of thousands of people per day and that only happens in densely populated countries and not in places with wide open spaces between cities like the US.
Here's some more info on the speed controls and limited automation on that particular line: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UfqmKqzKHVY
Why did Francisco José Garzón, a train driver with 30 years' experience, hit a bend at 190 kilometres per hour when the speed limit was 80 km/h? Did he ignore the automated warnings? Or did his train's alert system fail at a critical time?
An inquiry is under way into the derailing of the packed train, which killed 79 people in Santiago de Compostela, north-west Spain on 24 July. Garzón has admitted to "confusion" over the train's speed and, though freed on bail, is facing the prospect of 79 charges of negligent homicide.
One focus of the investigation will be the fact that the crash took place at a point where one safety system hands over to another – from one that controls the train's speed to one that does not. On high-speed sections, the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) intervenes wirelessly to ensure a train slows down if alerts are ignored.
Crucially, ERTMS cuts in if its alerts are ignored. It does so using GSM-R - a robust railway version of the GSM standard used by cellphones to communicate with the cell towers.
"ERTMS has all sorts of measures that prevent trains going over speed and will eventually be fitted over the whole route from Santiago to Madrid," says Roger Kemp, a safety-critical systems engineer specialising in railway technology at Lancaster University, UK. "But it is not a finished project."
This means that, 4 kilometres from Santiago de Compostela, on a slower, bendier section of track that snakes through the town, ERTMS has not yet been fitted. Instead, an older Spanish-developed system called ASFA advises the driver of the necessary safe speeds. But ASFA can only intervene if the driver does not respond.
"The driver only has to acknowledge that they have seen the speed advisory by pushing a button - otherwise the system will apply the brakes - but you don't have to comply with that speed under ASFA," says Kemp.
Spanish TV station Antena 3 says that Garzón told some witnesses immediately after the crash that he was not able to slow down to the necessary 80 km/h before the sharp curve - but it is not known why.
To find out, investigators are now retrieving data from the train's electronic systems - a process that must be performed carefully to prevent critical data in the damaged systems being overwritten. This could take two weeks.
"There is a lot of data that can be downloaded from various traction control computers on a train - and that should tell the investigators if the train was doing what it should have done," says Kemp.
While ERTMS works well in general, it does have vulnerabilities which researchers are attempting to address. Researchers led by Gianmarco Baldini at the European Commission's Institute for the Protection and the Security of the Citizen in Varese, Italy, have developed a system that can detect radio jamming and interference of the GSM-R signal and, within 1 second, inform train drivers and track controllers (International Journal of Critical Infrastructure Protection, doi.org/dpfmht).
So... if he literally did nothing, the train would have slowed and 79 people may not have died. He clearly was just clicking the "Ok" button over and over until the train crashed?
Yeah, I dunno, the article isn't entirely clear.
If I learned anything from Law and Order it's that criminal negligence is as serious a crime as criminal homocide is, and carries many of the same penalties!
Get Sam McCoy on this shit, it'll get sorted.
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