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Thread: Middle East Craziness Thread - Religion of Peace, Part Deux

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Middle East Craziness Thread - Religion of Peace, Part Deux

    Let's try this again. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8B30GP20121208

    Egypt's military said on Saturday only dialogue could avert "catastrophe", stepping into a crisis pitting Islamist President Mohamed Mursi against opponents who accuse him of grabbing excessive power.

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Mursi now threatening to impose a 'version' of martial law which allows the military to arrest civilians. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/w...otests.html?hp

    If Mr. Morsi goes through with the plan, it would represent a historic role reversal. Before the ouster of Hosni Mubarak last year, Egypt’s military-backed authoritarian presidents had spent six decades warning against the threat of an Islamist takeover and using martial law to hold onto their power. Mr. Morsi, a former leader of the once-banned Muslim Brotherhood, and many of his fellow Islamists were jailed under those decrees for their opposition to the government.

    A turn back to the military would come just four months after Mr. Morsi managed to pry political power out of the hands of the generals, who refused for months after his election to allow him full presidential power.

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    Nay. Tmac47's Avatar
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    This thread is a lie. Obama says, "World never been safer...".
    No more unicorns.

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    Guy being held in Egypt in connection to the Benghazi murders. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8B70DC20121208

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    Hates Donkeys n' Draegans Fuse's Avatar
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    I wonder if the military would side with Mursi. Their neutrality during the Arab Spring protests is what allowed them to succeed and get rind of Mubarek, and kept Egypt from becoming Syria 2.0 (well, 1.0)

    Edit:

    The military gave him an ultimatum and he annuled his decree.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...4184663962.221
    Last edited by Fuse; 12-09-2012 at 01:20 AM.

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    I guess his control over the military isn't as strong as he might wish.

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    Registered User Frenzied Wombat's Avatar
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    I honestly laughed when the term "Arab Spring" started being thrown around, along with some wild notion that there would actually be real democracy in the middle east (outside of Israel). As someone that has travelled there, it is forever going to be one corrupt despot replaced by another until such day that the seculars outnumber the islamicists. I'm not holding by breath on that one.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmac47 View Post
    This thread is a lie. Obama says, "World never been safer...".
    Yeah, the world would be much better off with the US-friendly dictatorship Egypt had before.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenzied Wombat View Post
    I honestly laughed when the term "Arab Spring" started being thrown around, along with some wild notion that there would actually be real democracy in the middle east (outside of Israel). As someone that has travelled there, it is forever going to be one corrupt despot replaced by another until such day that the seculars outnumber the islamicists. I'm not holding by breath on that one.
    Right cause it's only democracy when they like us.

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Isn't there also the question of whether Israel is really an inclusive democracy? I'm not familiar with what it takes to get voting rights in Israel, but aren't there lots of Arabs who aren't allowed to vote but make their living there?

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    Registered User Frenzied Wombat's Avatar
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    Whether they like us or not is moot. When a head of state grants himself unchecked authority to run the country, it isn't a democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Right cause it's only democracy when they like us.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenzied Wombat View Post
    Whether they like us or not is moot. When a head of state grants himself unchecked authority to run the country, it isn't a democracy.
    Pop Quiz: What did he actually grant himself?

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    I'm not even sure why we insist they have to be a democracy. It is their country after all lol

    It seems the majority over there want a part theocracy type system and they are gonna vote on the Constitution soon.

    The protesters wants to continue the revolution and make the vote illegitimate by any means necessary so they can get a new system.

    I can't see the new revolution strategy working unless they actually have larger numbers, the best way to prove their point imo is to just show up and vote no.

    If the protesters can sink the Constitution they can start drafting a new one, and I don't really fault Morsi too much, yah it was a politically inept move, but that court system over there is intentionally hindering the vote.

    It's not for the courts to decide on the Constitution (opinion not getting into any legalities), it's for the voters.


    edit..

    and I don't think a theocracy is a great form of government, I just don't see how you can force people to be free when they don't want to be.

    If the protesters are in the majority, that's the only way I see them getting what they want.
    Last edited by Flunklesnarkin; 12-10-2012 at 09:41 PM.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Theocracy and democracy are not mutually exclusive.

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    Registered User Frenzied Wombat's Avatar
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    Arabs that have citizenship can vote. There are a number of elected arab officials in the Knesset. Ironically the arab citizens have more democratic rights in Israel than they do in the rest of the middle east. It's actually a big worry for the Jewish population, as the arabs significantly outbreed the Jews.. France will probably one day suffer the same fate.

    Seems to be a big trend on these boards to knock Israel, but on my world tour in the mid '90's I spent a month in Tel Aviv. Chicks were super hot, hash was great, and boy did they know how to party.


    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
    Isn't there also the question of whether Israel is really an inclusive democracy? I'm not familiar with what it takes to get voting rights in Israel, but aren't there lots of Arabs who aren't allowed to vote but make their living there?

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    There are a few people who knock the Israeli government and the decisions made for various reasons, but I have yet to read anyone hating on the country itself and the people in it. It's extremely stupid that asking questions get you labelled anti-Israeli/Jewish.

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    The problem I see is one of hatred. Yes, a lot of Arab's hate the Jewish people, but it's also the case that the Jewish people hate the Arab's as well.

    Here would be an example of how I don't see Israel being inclusive to Arabs.

    Opinion polls in Israel show that a majority view intermarriage between Jewish and Arab people as treason.

    They even have groups set up to actively harass mixed heritage couples out on dates.

    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Article.aspx?id=155387


    They have gone as far as setting up counseling centers with psychologists to adjust Jewish people's way of thinking if they are open to dating Arabs.

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...s-dating-arabs


    I doubt keeping their culture "pure" is going to do much for peace. I see the issue of Israeli (Jewish) hatred of Arab's as just a big a problem as the Arab's hatred for Israel.

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    Registered User Frenzied Wombat's Avatar
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    Shrug, when I was there I didn't see any evidence of racism against the local arab population. There were some "bad" arab neighborhoods that were associated with crime, but certainly no more racist than what white people here in Dallas have to say about going down to the Fair Park area around Malcolm X boulevard.

    The attitude there is definitely heavily tinged with fear of cultural extinction.. They're surrounded by millions of arabs that not only far outnumber them, but far outbreed them.

    I'd be interested if you took a poll of white americans on whether they would approve of their daughter marrying a black man. Your results would not surprisingly be in tandem with that Israeli poll your cite.

    You're definitely right, the Israeli's I hung with hated non-Israeli arabs, so can that then be defined as racism? In any case, the Israeli kids I met went to school to learn math and stuff, and TV was comprised of old American TV shows dubbed over in Hebrew. Palestinian kids got children books that demonized Jews-- perverted versions of Little Red Riding Hood. Arab children TV hosts would read stories where Jews were demonized. truly twisted shit.

    They both hate each, but while one is gained through experience, the other is sickeningly trained from childhood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin View Post
    The problem I see is one of hatred. Yes, a lot of Arab's hate the Jewish people, but it's also the case that the Jewish people hate the Arab's as well.

    Here would be an example of how I don't see Israel being inclusive to Arabs.

    Opinion polls in Israel show that a majority view intermarriage between Jewish and Arab people as treason.

    They even have groups set up to actively harass mixed heritage couples out on dates.

    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Article.aspx?id=155387


    They have gone as far as setting up counseling centers with psychologists to adjust Jewish people's way of thinking if they are open to dating Arabs.

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...s-dating-arabs


    I doubt keeping their culture "pure" is going to do much for peace. I see the issue of Israeli (Jewish) hatred of Arab's as just a big a problem as the Arab's hatred for Israel.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm sure there's no experience the Palestinians have lived through that would make them hate the Israelis (and irrationally transfer that hatred to Jews generally).

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Syrian rebels released a video of them using a tank they made by remote control through a playstation.

    http://youtu.be/fB1BDrFzFY0

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    Nay. Tmac47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
    Syrian rebels released a video of them using a tank they made by remote control through a playstation.

    http://youtu.be/fB1BDrFzFY0
    Holy turning radius batman! They need trax.
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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Haha yeah. I just thought it was neat that they were using a playstation.

    In other news... The IMF has delayed a $4.8 billion loan payment until next month and demonstrations are getting more intense. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8B90RO20121211

    Egypt's army chief called for talks on national unity to end the country's deepening political crisis after a vital loan from the IMF was delayed and thousands of pro- and anti-government demonstrators took to the streets.

    The meeting, scheduled for Wednesday afternoon, was called in response to a destabilizing series of protests since President Mohamed Mursi awarded himself sweeping powers on November 22 to push through a new constitution shaped by his Islamist allies in a referendum on Saturday.

    "We will not speak about politics nor about the referendum. Tomorrow we will sit together as Egyptians," armed forces chief and Defense Minister Abdel Fattah al-Sisi said at a joint gathering of army and police officials.

    An aide said Mursi had supported the call for talks. The Muslim Brotherhood announced it would be there, while the main opposition coalition said it would decide on Wednesday morning whether to attend.

    Earlier, the finance minister disclosed that a $4.8 billion International Monetary Fund loan, a cornerstone of Egypt's economic recovery hopes, would be delayed until next month.

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    Lol at that being called cutting edge or a tank.

    I bet HMMV's or APC's have better armor than that thing.

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    The U.S. has officially recognized the Syrian rebels. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/u...s.html?hp&_r=0

    But Mr. Obama's move does not go so far as to confer on the opposition the legal authority of a state. It does not, for example, recognize the opposition's right to gain access to Syrian government money, take over the Syrian Embassy in Washington or enter into binding diplomatic commitments.
    Last edited by Numbers; 12-12-2012 at 01:34 AM.

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    The King of Beers Araxen's Avatar
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    So is chemical weapons the tipping point for foreign intervention in Syria? I don't see how the world can stand by and allow them to gas their own people. It's happened before I guess which is sad.

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    The White House has come out and said that the chemical weapons was crossing the red line. I guess that means a rain of fire, but I'm not convinced that would mean U.S. boots on the ground necessarily.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    I bet all the world needs to do is airstrike the Syrian military and the rebels would do the rest.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Fact:
    Assad = Raul Julia
    Obama = Jean-Claude Van Damme
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    Just this guy, you know. tad10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    I bet all the world needs to do is airstrike the Syrian military and the rebels would do the rest.
    All we ever needed to do was setup a no-fly zone - admittedly we'd have to do a bunch of initial bombs to take out SAM sites -beyond that the rebels wouldn't need any boots on the ground help. Failure to do that has added thousands of unecessary civilian casualties.
    #Kobane

    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Surrogates have been calling Trump a racist and a sexist for months now. I'm not sure how well that's working out.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    All we ever needed to do was setup a no-fly zone - admittedly we'd have to do a bunch of initial bombs to take out SAM sites -beyond that the rebels wouldn't need any boots on the ground help. Failure to do that has added thousands of unecessary civilian casualties.
    Under what authority would that bombing campaign have been done? Russia and China wouldn't allow it through the UN. And it's pretty questionable whether the Arab League or regional actors like Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and others would go along either. And it could well have given Assad enough reason to start lobbing sarin at his own people, or better yet, Israel. Bam, regional war.

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Hard right wing Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman (real sack of crap) had to resign amid charges of fraud and breech of trust. Analysts expect the charges and resignation may affect the upcoming election. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BD0QS20121214

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    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AJ1FK20121217

    Syrian rebels took full control of the Yarmouk Palestinian refugee camp on Monday after fighting raged for days in the district on the southern edge of President Bashar al-Assad's Damascus powerbase, rebel and Palestinian sources said.

    The battle had pitted rebels, backed by some Palestinians, against Palestinian fighters of the pro-Assad Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC). Many PFLP-GC fighters defected to the rebel side and their leader Ahmed Jibril left the camp two days ago, rebel sources said.

    "All of the camp is under the control of the (rebel) Free Syrian Army," said a Palestinian activist in Yarmouk. He said clashes had stopped and the remaining PFLP fighters retreated to join Assad's forces massed on the northern edge of the camp.

    The battle in Yarmouk is one of a series of conflicts on the southern fringes of Assad's capital, as rebels try to choke the power of the 47-year-old leader after a 21-month-old uprising in which 40,000 people have been killed.

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    Just this guy, you know. tad10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Yeah I'm sure there's no experience the Palestinians have lived through that would make them hate the Israelis (and irrationally transfer that hatred to Jews generally).
    Yeah it sucks that the Jews keep blowing up Palestinian teenagers in ice cream and pizza parlors or just entire buses.

    Oh wait... That was the PLO blowing up Jewish kids.

    Palestinians could have had their own state years ago if they'd given up violence, but the leaders of Fatah and Hamas like things exactly the way they are.
    #Kobane

    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Surrogates have been calling Trump a racist and a sexist for months now. I'm not sure how well that's working out.

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    Just this guy, you know. tad10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    Under what authority would that bombing campaign have been done? Russia and China wouldn't allow it through the UN. And it's pretty questionable whether the Arab League or regional actors like Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and others would go along either. And it could well have given Assad enough reason to start lobbing sarin at his own people, or better yet, Israel. Bam, regional war.
    You're such a fucking liberal pussy. You'd rather have 100,000 civilians die than get in there and just stop the violence - Clinton at least had some balls and went in and stopped the massacres in Croatia/Serbia/Etc.

    Fuck the UN. What has it gotten us? Most recently an Internet Treaty that blows.
    #Kobane

    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Surrogates have been calling Trump a racist and a sexist for months now. I'm not sure how well that's working out.

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    Registered User Azrayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    Yeah it sucks that the Jews keep blowing up Palestinian teenagers in ice cream and pizza parlors or just entire buses.

    Oh wait... That was the PLO blowing up Jewish kids.

    Palestinians could have had their own state years ago if they'd given up violence, but the leaders of Fatah and Hamas like things exactly the way they are.
    Yeah, Palestinian kids live in a regular paradise :|
    " I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    You're such a fucking liberal pussy. You'd rather have 100,000 civilians die than get in there and just stop the violence - Clinton at least had some balls and went in and stopped the massacres in Croatia/Serbia/Etc.

    Fuck the UN. What has it gotten us? Most recently an Internet Treaty that blows.
    Actually I think it would be great if the UN didn't get cock blocked by Russia/China and we could see some actions to at least remove the existing regime in Syria. But unfortunately that's not going to happen. I'm not a pussy. I'm a realist. If the US or NATO attacked Syria, it would start a regional conflict that would probably kill even more people. Giving Assad any pretext to cook off some sarin just isn't a smart idea.

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    Just heard about how Richard Engel and crew were briefly taken hostage in Syria by a government militia, but they have now been released. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...196_story.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    Palestinians could have had their own state years ago if they'd given up violence, but the leaders of Fatah and Hamas like things exactly the way they are.
    I don't think this is the case. Palestine having their own state is not in Israel's interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    I don't think this is the case. Palestine having their own state is not in Israel's interest.
    It's sort of true. The Palestinians were offered a deal at the Camp David accords that would have effectively made it impossible for the people to get access to fresh water or have any kind of defense of their own territory against an Israeli invasion (essentially the land would have been split into 3 indefensible cantons) and this was under a 9:1 area swap (with no concessions made about Israeli settlements on the wrong side of the green line in violation of resolution 242). The fact that the pill was poisoned doesn't make any difference to the cynical (like the people Tad gets his information from) so of course those facts get left completely out of the narrative.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    It's sort of true. The Palestinians were offered a deal at the Camp David accords that would have effectively made it impossible for the people to get access to fresh water or have any kind of defense of their own territory against an Israeli invasion (essentially the land would have been split into 3 indefensible cantons) and this was under a 9:1 area swap (with no concessions made about Israeli settlements on the wrong side of the green line in violation of resolution 242). The fact that the pill was poisoned doesn't make any difference to the cynical (like the people Tad gets his information from) so of course those facts get left completely out of the narrative.
    The problem is that the Palestinians have no reason to trust that whatever deal they swallow would be upheld by Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    The problem is that the Palestinians have no reason to trust that whatever deal they swallow would be upheld by Israel.
    Isn't that why they have tried to get the US to be enforcers of any deal made in the past?

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    The problem is that the Palestinians have no reason to trust that whatever deal they swallow would be upheld by Israel.
    They might be able to get such assurances from the international community, but not while the U.S. has its diplomatic umbrella over Israel.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    The problem is that the Palestinians have no reason to trust that whatever deal they swallow would be upheld by Israel.
    Why, cause the Jews will be Indian givers?

    Racist.

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    Totally Ninja Sterling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    Why, cause the Jews will be Indian givers?

    Racist.
    Oh my.

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    Isn't that why they have tried to get the US to be enforcers of any deal made in the past?
    Palestine would be stupid to trust America any more than they trust Israel, and with good reason.
    " I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"

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    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araxen View Post
    So is chemical weapons the tipping point for foreign intervention in Syria? I don't see how the world can stand by and allow them to gas their own people. It's happened before I guess which is sad.
    if they would intervene in countries they didn't have economic or political interests in I would agree, but they don't, america is actively supporting a rebellion in Syria because Syria is Irans ally plain and simple. why dont we get angry for the government for backing this insanity. The majority of syrians support bashar assad, why where we trying to topple him again?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ern-propaganda

    Ruwanda, bosnia, Darfur didn't have anything anybody wanted so those genocides where allowed to happen

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    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    Why, cause the Jews will be Indian givers?

    Racist.
    yes its racist for Palestinians to think the Jews have got it our for them, it's also paranoia and probably a wild conspiracy theory too. they should all see doctors and start taking meds because they must have brain problems.

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    The King of Beers Araxen's Avatar
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    Isn't there a separate Zionists thread?

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    Syrian government has used chemical weapons in Homs

    http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/syr...-activists-say

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Righto then, time for the international community to forcibly remove the regime.

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    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Using chemicals is worse than artillery or mortars?

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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    Apparently, yeah. It's been that way since, like, always.

    You remember months ago? When Syria said, "We will use any weapons at our disposal" and then America said, "Oh no the fuck you won't" and then Syria said, "We will use almost any weapons at our disposal".

    Wether it's an obvious line in the sand or not, it's an obvious line in the sand. I don't know that it changes much besides for making the Russians look kinda like dicks. I don't think the Russians are all that concerned about that.

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    Yeah. The latest word from Russia was that they wouldn't be helping out transitioning to new leadership.

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    Good for Russia

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    Using chemicals is worse than artillery or mortars?
    Perhaps not in the arithmetic sense. But chemical weapons are a thick red line. If they did actually cross it, the international community must respond so as to set an example for any other assholes in the future who might consider it.

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    Most of the info we have currently comes from the rebels though. Some sort of gas was used, but for all we know it might not be much more than tear gas. Maybe they did use Sarin or something similar (I dont know my gases), but they would be pretty stupid to do so.

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    If any of the banned chemical weapons were used it would be known and easily confirmed. The most likely possibility is the use of higher than normal concentrations of the internationally acceptable crowd control gases. The rebels are just trying to troll us.
    Something to keep in mind is that this is a real civil war between disparate factions that increasingly despise one another. It is unlikely that there will be a resolution that results in the complete defeat of one side or the other, absent the intervention of foreign forces.
    Another major concern is that lebanon is headed for very difficult times regardless of the eventual victor in the Syrian civil war.

    Something to keep in mind is that, but for the peace-keeping intervention by Syria in the Lebanese civil war, the Lebanese Christians would have been defeated, Lebanon would presently be a Muslim nation, and Lebanese Christians would presently be an oppressed minority. The Syrians are probably bitterly regretting thier help to the west in that conflict, since they only did so at the behest of the United States and Israel, as these two entities saw the inevitable pending destruction of the Lebanese Christian forces. I dont doubt that they presently feel betrayed in this latest catastrophe. There must be Rerolled posters familiar with the specifics of that past adventure. If so, enlighten us with some of the nuances of that past historical event(since though past, it is relevent to the present disaster).
    Last edited by TPDDODD; 12-27-2012 at 08:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flank View Post
    Most of the info we have currently comes from the rebels though. Some sort of gas was used, but for all we know it might not be much more than tear gas. Maybe they did use Sarin or something similar (I dont know my gases), but they would be pretty stupid to do so.
    From the article:

    "A doctor treating patients subsequently said the gas seemed to be a concentrated form of tear gas that has not been used in Homs before. Inhaling large amounts can lead to suffocation and death, he said."

  59. #59
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    The UN has re-evaluated the number of dead in Syria and has revised the estimate up to 60,000. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...8AJ1FK20130102

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    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    The UN has re-evaluated the number of dead in Syria and has revised the estimate up to 60,000. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...8AJ1FK20130102
    He started off slow, but Bashir totally one-upped daddy in the "How many of mine own people must I kill to stay in power" game. Props.

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    Yeah, his father would be proud.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Well, the one thing to be said is that as far as I understand it dad outright killed 40,000 people with the army. Whereas of the 60,000 dead this time around, a significant number have been killed by the rebels.

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    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    Well, the one thing to be said is that as far as I understand it dad outright killed 40,000 people with the army. Whereas of the 60,000 dead this time around, a significant number have been killed by the rebels.
    Your Canadian brain has failed you. If I killed 100k of my own people by making them watch Strange Brew, does it matter HOW I killed them?

    Bashir put in place a system, through his father, that has allowed for the slaughter of 60k of his own people. The how is irrelevant.

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    Just to be sure, you do know what the alternative to Assad is, right? It's the same as the alternative to Mubarak or the initial alternative to Gaddafi. I am surprised that Americans have because so pro Muslim Brotherhood. Not because they are muslim, but because they share some very close ties (and ideals) with a certain organisation that flew large planes into large american buildings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flank View Post
    Just to be sure, you do know what the alternative to Assad is, right? It's the same as the alternative to Mubarak or the initial alternative to Gaddafi. I am surprised that Americans have because so pro Muslim Brotherhood. Not because they are muslim, but because they share some very close ties (and ideals) with a certain organisation that flew large planes into large american buildings.
    I'm not talking about the alternative, just the stats of Father vs Son. There is no legitimate, humanitarianly responsible government waiting in the wings. The next regime will most likely be worse than Assad. However, that doesn't absolve Assad of his crimes against humanity.

    Morsi and his muslim brotherhood play the right tune as far as the US is concerned. We need to destabilize the middle east to get our cheap oil. Morsi and his constituents accomplish this by tying "constitutional" law to religious extremism. Nothing new to see here.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef Supreme View Post
    Your Canadian brain has failed you. If I killed 100k of my own people by making them watch Strange Brew, does it matter HOW I killed them?

    Bashir put in place a system, through his father, that has allowed for the slaughter of 60k of his own people. The how is irrelevant.
    So what you're saying is, you don't understand the difference between a civil war and a purge. Gotcha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    So what you're saying is, you don't understand the difference between a civil war and a purge. Gotcha.
    Again, your Canadian brain has failed you.

    What I'm saying, you daft Canuck fuck, is that via whatever mechanism you want to argue, the end result is that Father & Son Al Assad have killed over 100k of their own people. Father did it old school, a-la Stalin, while his son pushed his people against a wall with the RESULT being civil war.

    Can you comprehend the fact that there wouldn't be a rebellion if Bashir didn't come down so hard on his own people? You know, like if he didn't retaliate against the protesters and took steps for meaningful discussion towards progressive change. These deaths are the result of his actions. Get it?


    Come on man. Why don't you get it man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef Supreme View Post
    Come on man. Why don't you get it man
    It's the logical end-point of the liberal's moral relativism.

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    Canada has mastered Civil protest. The Syrians should take their example.



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    Quote Originally Posted by General Antony View Post
    It's the logical end-point of the liberal's moral relativism.
    lolwut

    Even if we took it for granted that liberalism contains a notion of moral relativism (and not just the more obvious position of moral subjectivism) the very fact that anyone might (hypothetically) characterize an actual purge as a fake civil war means they're not taking purges to be a good thing. Seriously dude, why the fuck are you using words you clearly don't understand?

  71. #71
    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Antony View Post
    It's the logical end-point of the liberal's moral relativism.
    http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/12...n-the-run.html
    Whats insanity is that the rebellion in syria lost,and because america is inciting and arming the rebellion they are re-organizing it in turkey and trying again.

    If we hadn't invaded Iraq and turned it into such a mess I believe Iraq and turkey would be at war right now, turkey is busy daming the Tigris river and it no longer reaches the fertile crescent, this has made it so Iraq has to import grain to feed its people.
    http://peaceinkurdistancampaign.word...-dam-starting/

    http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/tigris.htm
    Last edited by fanaskin; 01-07-2013 at 01:11 PM.

  72. #72
    Gavinrad Sparklerad's Avatar
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    Iraq has been importing our grain since the 80s. Using our money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef Supreme View Post
    Again, your Canadian brain has failed you.

    What I'm saying, you daft Canuck fuck, is that via whatever mechanism you want to argue, the end result is that Father & Son Al Assad have killed over 100k of their own people. Father did it old school, a-la Stalin, while his son pushed his people against a wall with the RESULT being civil war.

    Can you comprehend the fact that there wouldn't be a rebellion if Bashir didn't come down so hard on his own people? You know, like if he didn't retaliate against the protesters and took steps for meaningful discussion towards progressive change. These deaths are the result of his actions. Get it?


    Come on man. Why don't you get it man
    I believe there to be a massive difference between letting a rebellion build up and outright culling a population.

  74. #74
    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinrad View Post
    Iraq has been importing our grain since the 80s. Using our money.
    You are correct, I should say the situation is getting worse for them.

    http://www.indexmundi.com/agricultur...&graph=imports

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    I believe there to be a massive difference between letting a rebellion build up and outright culling a population.
    Yeah, that's essentially what I was getting at. I'm not saying that Assad is anything but a complete asshole who should be strung up by his balls. But his dad was far more vicious in suppressing the rebellion in Hama in 1982 than the son was in his initial attempts in 2011.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2..._Siege_of_Hama

    It took daddy 3 weeks to kill as many people as son took a year or two to kill. That's all I was saying. I certainly wasn't absolving Bashir of anything.
    Last edited by Eomer; 01-07-2013 at 04:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    Yeah, that's essentially what I was getting at. I'm not saying that Assad is anything but a complete asshole who should be strung up by his balls. But his dad was far more vicious in suppressing the rebellion in Hama in 1982 than the son was in his initial attempts in 2011.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2..._Siege_of_Hama

    It took daddy 3 weeks to kill as many people as son took a year or two to kill. That's all I was saying. I certainly wasn't absolving Bashir of anything.
    Good. It seemed you were going the statistical relativism route to diminish the atrocity that is currently going on in Syria. I have a friend from there so this shit hits close to home for me, even outside the overt disgust I feel when reading about this kind of shit.

    As time goes on, this looks like Libya 2.0, but with Russia's hand firmly on the shoulder of Assad. They have their naval base, Tartus, which they covet and enjoy the arms deals they are making with the Assad family. With Russia so close with Assad-controlled Syria, and with a Security Council veto, it looks like the world is content with Syrians bleeding each other into the Stone Age.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    I wasn't trying to diminish anything, just pointing out the statistical reality that father was much worse than son, all else aside. Maybe dad wouldn't have been such a dick in the age of instant communications or son would have been worse, who knows.

    And actually in my opinion I think Bashir is a stooge as much as anything. Were it up to him and his wife, he'd probably have just walked away with a few billion to retire in Venezuela or some shit. I'd imagine he knows that if he had tried that, his generals and intelligence enforcers would have immediately executed him and his entire family to seize power. Much like the newest Kim, he's a figurehead for the existing regime/power structures.

  78. #78
    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    I wasn't trying to diminish anything, just pointing out the statistical reality that father was much worse than son, all else aside. Maybe dad wouldn't have been such a dick in the age of instant communications or son would have been worse, who knows.

    And actually in my opinion I think Bashir is a stooge as much as anything. Were it up to him and his wife, he'd probably have just walked away with a few billion to retire in Venezuela or some shit. I'd imagine he knows that if he had tried that, his generals and intelligence enforcers would have immediately executed him and his entire family to seize power. Much like the newest Kim, he's a figurehead for the existing regime/power structures.
    I see it differently: Bashir isn't interested in just being rich; anyone can be rich. He wants power and control and the Russians give it to him. Why would he give it up? He's already rich and delusional. He doesn't think that he will fall, even if he has to kill every non-Alawite Syrian to stay afloat.

    Kim Jong Un is a man-child with a tiny, impoverished country. They are only relevant because the Chinese aren't yet bored with their play-thing. Syria is not Best Korea, they have a real economy, a middle class.

  79. #79
    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef Supreme View Post
    it looks like the world is content with Syrians bleeding each other into the Stone Age.
    Content? No. Accepting? Maybe.

    I don't know what the geopolitical repercussions would be if we bombed Syria's military assets like in Libya and enabled the rebels to win but frankly if Russia wants to expend its political capital to support Syria then yes, I accept the deaths of the Syrians as a consequence for the US not being a world police in this instance. I'm not content or happy about it though.

  80. #80
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    Humanitarian crisis among Syrian refugees. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/w...-Syria.html?hp

    The World Food Program, the food agency of the United Nations, said that it was providing food to one and a half million people inside Syria this month but that as many as two and a half million needed help, mostly in areas made hazardous by fighting between insurgents and loyalist forces of President Bashar al-Assad.

    “Our partners are overstretched, and there is no capacity to expand operations further,” said a World Food Program spokeswoman, Elizabeth Byrs, at the agency’s Geneva headquarters. “We need more implementing partners.”

    She also said acute fuel shortages in Syria had delayed food deliveries and contributed to severe inflation in the price of bread because bakeries needed fuel for their ovens. In the contested city of Aleppo, for example, the price of a kilogram of bread is 250 Syrian pounds, or about $3.50, at least 50 percent higher than in other parts of Syria and at least six times more than its cost when the Syrian conflict began nearly two years ago.

    The United Nations appealed last month for $1.5 billion in additional aid to handle the growing humanitarian crisis created by the Syrian conflict, which has left at least 60,000 people dead and is threatening to destabilize the Middle East. More than half a million Syrians have fled to neighboring countries, and the United Nations refugee agency has forecast a doubling of that number by the middle of 2013.

    The most heavily burdened neighbors — Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon — have been persistently calling for more international aid, particularly during the cold winter months.

    At the Zaatari refugee camp, which shelters 54,000 Syrians in northern Jordan, fighting erupted Tuesday during food distribution after a night of relentless rain inundated parts of the encampment. The number of injuries was unclear.

  81. #81
    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Maybe we should stop economicially sanctioning syria then? this whole war seems manufactured. I challenge the notion this is a popular internal rebellion. This is very much an externally funded and western incited rebellion, backed by nato arms and a concerted effort to change a sovereign nations leader.

  82. #82
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Are you the new American spokesperson for Bashar?

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    Μολών Λαβέ Beef Supreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    Content? No. Accepting? Maybe.

    I don't know what the geopolitical repercussions would be if we bombed Syria's military assets like in Libya and enabled the rebels to win but frankly if Russia wants to expend its political capital to support Syria then yes, I accept the deaths of the Syrians as a consequence for the US not being a world police in this instance. I'm not content or happy about it though.
    Yeah, it's a clusterfuck that doesn't seem to have an end in sight. Assad needs to go, but without a clear transition government set up, it looks like his successor will be as bad, or worse than the man himself.

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    Registered User Agenor's Avatar
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    Old, but still cracks me up.



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    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90F0CH20130116

    More than 30 people died in a suicide attack and other bombings in northern Iraq and Baghdad on Wednesday, deepening sectarian strife in the OPEC nation as Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki faces mounting pressure from minority Sunnis and Kurds.

    Shoppers and police helped drag bloodied survivors out of the rubble and wrecked vehicles after a suicide bomber in a trunk set off a huge explosion in Kirkuk, near the local headquarters of the Kurdistan Democratic Party or KDP.

    The attacks came as Maliki, a Shi'ite, is locked in a feud with ethnic Kurds in autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan over disputed oilfields and also is also confronting Sunni Muslim protesters in a western province calling for him to step down.

    "A suicide bomber driving a truck packed with explosives detonated the vehicle outside the KDP headquarters. It's a crowded area, dozens were killed and wounded, Police Brigadier Sarhat Qadir told Reuters in Kirkuk.

    Local Kirkuk health officials and police said at least 21 people were killed and more than 170 were wounded.

    Another three people died and 37 more were wounded in a separate bombing outside a rival Kurdish political party office in Tuz Khurmato, 170 km (105 miles) north of the capital.

    Roadside bombs and gun attacks in Baghdad and Baiji, north of the capital killed seven policemen and soldiers.

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    For the people who think we should intervene in Syria against Assad.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21061018

    The United States calls you a terrorist group, I said.

    "The West is afraid of our long beards - even though the Jews grow their beards, too.

    "Muslims are portrayed in the West as savages. The West is conspiring against us

    "When the US placed us on their list of terrorists, it did us no harm, it elevated our reputation. The Syrian people hate the American government. Thanks be to God, we consider this a medal of honour."

  87. #87
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    More terrible shit in Syria. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90G09R20130117

    More than 100 people were shot, stabbed or possibly burned to death by government forces in the Syrian city of Homs, a monitoring group said on Thursday, and fierce fighting raged across the country.

    The British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said women and children were among the 106 people killed by forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad forces who stormed Basatin al-Hasawiya, a poor district on the edge of Homs, on Tuesday.

    The massacre in the central city came the same day twin explosions killed over 80 people at Aleppo's university in the north, according to the group.

    Reuters cannot independently confirm reports due to reporting restrictions in Syria.

    Syrian warplanes and troops pursued a countrywide offensive on Thursday, activists and state media said, bombing rebel-held areas and clashing with insurgents who have pushed into cities.

    Government forces clashed on Thursday with insurgents in the cities of Deraa, Hama, Homs, Aleppo, Damascus and east of Deir al-Zor, the Observatory said. Only the coastal Assad strongholds of Latakia and Tartous were spared violence.

    Opposition activists said 15 people, including 7 children, were killed when an air strike hit a family home in Husseiniyeh, a suburb on the outskirts of the capital.

    They sent Reuters footage of people dragging the limp bodies of children out of the rubble.

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    At least 25 dead across Iraq as fears of sectarian violence grows amid a government crisis. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/w...tamia-.html?hp

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    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    Are you the new American spokesperson for Bashar?
    No I have a pair of eyes and I can think for myself.

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    Well then sir, I must respectfully disagree.

  91. #91

  92. #92
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    Benghazi police Captain kidnapped and partially dissolved with acid. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/w...%2Findex.jsonp

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    Russians getting ready to evacuate the nearly 30,000 citizens it has in Syria, but they are being coy about it. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/22/w...%2Findex.jsonp

    MOSCOW — Russia announced Monday that it was sending two airplanes from its emergency services fleet to Beirut, Lebanon, to evacuate around 100 Russian citizens leaving Syria, reflecting Moscow’s assessment that President Bashar al-Assad’s forces are losing control of the country after nearly two years of fighting.

    It was not clear whether the news signaled the beginning of a large-scale evacuation. Russia has an estimated 30,000 citizens in Syria, including government and military personnel, private contractors, and tens of thousands of women married to Syrian men. Around a dozen Russian ships are in the Mediterranean off the coast of Syria for naval exercises and could, officials have said, be used to evacuate Russian citizens.

    Irina Rossius, a spokeswoman for Russia’s Emergency Services Ministry, said two airplanes would fly to Beirut on Tuesday “so that all Russians who wish to can leave Syria,” Interfax reported. She said more than 100 Russians expected to leave. If they can afford to do so, it is now common for people leaving Damascus, the Syrian capital, to avoid the contested route to the city’s airport by driving to Beirut and flying out from there.

  94. #94
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    Another suicide bombing in Iraq, killing at least 20 at a Shi'ite mosque. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90M0RA20130123

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    ...and another suicide bombing at a funeral killing at least 14 more people. https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...l-iraq.html?hp

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    What exactly is happening in Iraq now? Is this because of some new issue or is it just the ME being the ME?

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    Apparently the government has been in a state of deadlock for some time. Shortly after foreign troops left the country, the PM and friends in Iraq issued an arrest warrant for the deputy PM who has been on the lamb for a while now. On top of that the three major groups, Sunnis, Shi'ites and Kurds as slowly falling back into sectarian violence for control of various areas. Iran is backing Maliki, the Kurds hate everybody (everyone seems to hate them too), the Sunnis are just pissed in general, and various lunatics are happy to cause chaos amid everything else.

  98. #98
    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    Well then sir, I must respectfully disagree.
    Well sir let me introduce you to what general wesley clark has been telling people since about 2007

    Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Yemen and Iran have been on the hit list since at least 2001.

    all of those countries have had a war(or gearing up for one), including the current drone war in Yemen nobody is talking about but the president has been doing for over a year now.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    November 28 (RIA Novosti) – A key member of the unrecognized Syrian opposition accused Turkey on Wednesday of allowing Saudi mercenaries to enter through its border with Syria.

    “These people are destroying Syria,” Haytham Manna, spokesman for the National Coordination Committee for Democratic Change, told the Voice of Russia. “Unfortunately, there are political players such as Turkey who allow them to invade Syria.”

    Manna added that the mercenaries were hired to join the fight against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad "so that they keep shooting, instead of trying to figure out who is who.”

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20121128/177799664.html
    Last edited by fanaskin; 01-23-2013 at 07:42 PM.

  99. #99
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    I'm lost as to what your point was now fanaskin. However, France now says that they don't see Assad being toppled any time soon. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90N0RP20130124

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    Apparently the government has been in a state of deadlock for some time. Shortly after foreign troops left the country, the PM and friends in Iraq issued an arrest warrant for the deputy PM who has been on the lamb for a while now. On top of that the three major groups, Sunnis, Shi'ites and Kurds as slowly falling back into sectarian violence for control of various areas. Iran is backing Maliki, the Kurds hate everybody (everyone seems to hate them too), the Sunnis are just pissed in general, and various lunatics are happy to cause chaos amid everything else.
    The solution is obvious.

    We aren't using enough drone strikes.

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