The description makes me imagine the Space Marine game but with persistent battles like an MMOFPS. I guess we'll have to wait and see but I'm excited about any new Warhammer game regardless.
"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war." These are the ominous words that greet visitors of the brand-new website for Warhammer 40k: Eternal Crusade. The game, announced today and in development at Behaviour Interactive (with the support of Games Workshop, of course), is a third-person action MMORPG set in a persistent world.
Details are scant as the title's unveiling has just begun, currently sitting at phase one of nine. The only clear information available on the official site is a targeted release window of late 2015.
We'll have more for you tomorrow after we sit down with Behaviour's head of online games, Miguel Caron, at E3, but for now, here's the press release blurby:
Montreal, 10th June, 2013 – Behaviour Interactive and Games Workshop® proudly announce a new online game in the Warhammer® 40,000® universe: Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade. Behaviour Interactive has obtained the rights to create a wholly new MMORPG persistent war experience for PC, PS4 and Xbox One set in Games Workshop's universe of the 41st Millennium. In the game, players choose a Warhammer 40,000® race and fight directly as one of their warriors in massive conflicts for territory. It will be up to each faction's community to determine their own destiny as they vie for control of an entire planet.
The description makes me imagine the Space Marine game but with persistent battles like an MMOFPS. I guess we'll have to wait and see but I'm excited about any new Warhammer game regardless.
Website intro was rad, will be watching this game.
Release date is late 2015. No point worrying about this game any time soon.
Id be very happy with Planetside 2 style with 40k weapons and greater emphasis on melee.
I am not going to comment since I have no clue what developer this is... kinda scary tbh
I really wouldn't get your hopes up.
This new MMO is Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade, made by Behaviour Interactive (formerly Artificial Mind and Movement) and due late in 2015. Behaviour made 7/10 action game Wet and 4/10 obscenity Naughty Bear.
It's a Canadian studio that's plied a trade since '92 in movie tie-ins and making the 'other versions' of multiplatform games. Despite that, Behaviour apparently employs close to 300 people - so says its website.
I'd prefer something more EVE~esque, with BFG style space battles, racial factions and battles over solar systems and planets with a DUST-514 planet based FPS aspect. With boarding parties, orbital strikes, infiltration missions, entire Ork WAAAGHS or Hive Fleets rampaging through sectors....
Yeah, this game is going to be fantastically bad.
Can't they just sell the IP to the Eve guys for Christ's sake?
Man, and I thought Vigil's attempt at a 40k mmo was a trainwreck, but this already seems even worse and it's the first I've heard of it. Maybe when THQ went under they were forced to give the assets to Games Workshop, who then picked this studio of complete nobodies to go forward with it?
Fighting over 1 fucking planet is not 40k.It will be up to each faction's community to determine their own destiny as they vie for control of an entire planet.
Why can't a competent studio make a WH40K game? Is the license taboo in the video game industry or something? Christ sakes. /Facepalm
This just cannot be anything but a dissappointment. WH40K is just too awesome.
Why can't we have nice things?
What happened to the last WH40K MMO that was being worked on? Did I miss its cancellation?
oderint dum metuant
They should start smaller. I'd dig a WH40K single player game. Maybe give it some Mass Effect 3 style multi-player. Go from there. Like begin developing the MMO as soon as the FPS/RPG succeeds with a small team devoted to DLCs.
40k (the universe and content) is too massive to be done correctly and GW is really, really bad with most business decisions. Planetside/MMO 40k is the game I've wanted more than any other game in my life, but I know it can't happen =(
It's no surprise that Games Workshop picked a garbage studio for Eternal Crusade, because aside from Relic, pretty much everyone who has developed a video game under license from GW has made a total shitfest.
Space Hulk, The SSI games, Fire Warrior, Mark of Chaos, Warhammer Online.
Hell, even Blood Bowl, which is mostly just supposed to be an electronic adaptation of the board game, is a bug riddled shitfest with a horrible UI and barely functional multiplayer support.
Or didn't take the rights away.
Considering cyanide does like nothing PR wise, nothing support wise, and pretty much nothing in the field of bugs ..
Maybe GW wants to convince PC gamers that only board and table games are fun, and that all PC games suck.
Sounds like it. I think that GW just hates customers.
I mean, look at game like STO, WHO, TOR...if GW went around with the expectation of having an actually successful triple-A MMO made, they'd probably be disappointed regardless. And remember the saying "There is no such thing as bad publicity". Even when a studio fails or rolls out a turd, think what happens: GW still makes money, said studio takes the hit, gamers are still exposed to the GW IP and those who demand a "GW game Done Right" will still show interest the next 20 games that are made using a GW license.
I'm fascinated by the idea of an EVE/DUST 40K world, but you know what...even if they fail, at least some people are looking at the EVE/DUST model. So even if this game ends up being a complete turd at least we'll be moving forward in the genre towards something better.
I do think that an EVE version would have to be reaaaally careful with the 40K capital ship side of things (BFG), as you can already look at their current issues with "CAPSHIPS: ONLINE". That said, even if players had tougher restrictions on what ships they could build/buy/use, who wouldn't want to fly past friendly 40K ships when they're anywhere from 0.5km to 5km+ long?
Manufacture and trade should figure highly in this game, the acquisition of materials and STCs should be a major point of content for players.
My major sticking point with a WH40K game is the races and restrictions on grouping up, and the well, lets face it -- people, being people. If you wanted to stick to trying to make the experience as immersive as possible, players would only be allowed to play Chaos, Orks or Imperial Guard.
as said many time, the only way someone can picture a 40k mmo done right is to create a completely open pvp game like EVE, with "Battlefield" type of combat and with territorial control
even this system however doesnt mean it can work. Infact, while EVE gives the player a completely free, factionless system, with only the will of the players determining the alliances and affiliations of groups of players, in 40k you must have a faction based system
so, while in EVE the only thing that stop a group of players from conquering a territory is their inability to forge alliances or improve their corp, in 40k the strenght of a faction is determined by the number of players playing it
in few words.....what the Ork players can do when they face the Imperium faction and their 5 times bigger playerbase?
the alternative is to compromise to a more "friendly" system, with faction alliances (Like it was dark millennium and its Eldar/imperium vs chaos/orks)
but that would be no 40k. I don't want play a game where i risk to stumble upon a SM sergent having cybersex with his girlfriend eldar banshee while walking inside my fortress monastery
I just caught who is leading the team making this game from the RPS article.
Don't get your hopes up.
Well I guess if a 40K game was done Eve style, they'd have to make up a bunch of ships. BFG doesn't really have that many ships. We really only know of Battleships, Cruisers, Battlecruisers (really just a cruiser with lances on top), Light Cruisers (or Strike Cruisers their SM cousin), and Escorts (Heavy Escorts), but that's just Chaos and Imperial Navy. The other fleets are severely limited:
-SM, really only have their main Battlebarge, Strike Cruisers, and Escorts. The worst in the game.
-Eldar (and Dark Eldar), pretty much just their Cruisers and Escorts. They've got the void stalker I suppose, but the eldar in general are very rare.
-Orks probably bring the next amount of variety with their Kruizers, and rocks.
-Chaos is actually supposed to be rare.
-Everyone else (Grey Knights, Inquisitorial Black fleets, Tyranids, Necrons, Craftworld Eldar, Rogue Trader Fleets) are supposed to be very rare. Not enough to build an entire faction the likes of Amarr or Gallente.
Other than that, everything else is very limited. Same goes with the standard 40K pieces. It isn't like Eve where you have this open setting that the developer can just make up what ever they want as they go. Their framework allows for that. We'd end up with everyone being Imperial navy which I guess goes with the fluff.
A lot of new players to BFG don't realize that the Imperial Navy is like everywhere pretty much and that all the other fleets are strike fleets. Even Chaos which has as many classes as the IN, really only compose strike fleets during a major incursion. I just find it near impossible to do 40K justice in an Eve MMO environment. Even if you did grand alliances at this scale you're talking some major stepping over the fluff.
So your choices when you start would be Ork and Imperial Navy? With everything else being AIs or special units you could contract as "pets"? I suppose the other way to do it is to focus on a specific sector of space (Gothic Sector more than likely during the wars for Armageddon)
I prefer the Planetside idea much better.
The closest I would see a 40K BFG mmo, would be like Star Trek online, without the ground stuff. Actually come to think of it, a PvE centric MMO like STO, heavily instanced might work. Pvp could be in battle zones both ship and ground versions. They could release with Imperial Navy first, then later on release Chaos. Little by little they could release additional races (maybe Orks and then Eldar), kind of like STO did. Space Marine ships, and the "other" factional ships would be like cash shop purchases (kind of like how STO does with the Andorean, Orion, and Gorn ships).
Last edited by Helldiver; 06-14-2013 at 08:22 PM.
BFG has a lot of fluff, mostly through the BFG magazine that filled in a lot of what you didn't get in Armada, the Blue Book and so on. I've also read the 40K novels, the BFG novels, and there really isn't anything else from what I mentioned. Now if you're talking about ship variants, than sure, you're right, there's a lot of them out there, but it's all Imperial Navy.
I think you're confusing ship classes, with ship variants? But the issue isn't so much the ship classes and variants (the imperial navy still dwarfs all others in that department). It's the size and capabilities of the other factions when compared to the IN.
Except for specific campaigns, the other factions aside from IN, aren't really an equal match in the way you see in Eve. Orks are the exception, since fluff-wise they span the entire galaxy. However, it's arguable whether or not Orks have enough waagh power in large enough numbers to form large fleets that give the IN a run for their money, aside from the occasional campaign (such as Armageddon and so on). Large ork waagh fleets have historically petered out nearly as fast as they get formed. Which really doesn't make Orks on par with IN in any way.
Like Fucker said you'd end up having to come up with bullshit fluff to explain why several factions join each other in order to bulk them up. Which kills the whole thing before it starts. In the end you're just not going to keep people like me happy, and it'll be another shit 40K mmo. The STO idea would probably be the best solution.
I also think that when I mention BFG and EVE together that you're assuming that I'm visualizing Minnie = Chaos, Amarr = Imperium or something similar. I'm not. What I envision is the game engine and the game itself modified for the 40K universe. I think it's a mistake to look at the 40K factions and think that they either have to exist as a stand alone major faction where they hold and take territory, otherwise thinking that they "wont work" in the EVE universe. Bollocks. Take Eldar and Dark Eldar as an example. Build their faction less around conquering territory, and more about piratical activities, surgical strikes, advanced movement and deployment, and perhaps give Eldar the ability to fight over some of their seeded planets or whatever else people can think of.
Second, with all of the factions that don't hold space in a standard fashion, the Imperium argument might be moot at best. Wormhole space can handle a lot of this, and some factions could (would) have EXTENSIVE holdings outside of the "material" universe.
Third, being a member of a "parent" faction doesn't mean that you are out taking territory for said faction; in actuality, it's somewhat the opposite. Take EVE factions: I could be Minmatar but if I were to conquer territory I'm not doing it for any of the Minmatar factions. And that's really only possible in 0.0 anyways. In areas like lowsec you could have "Imperium" sovereignty in name only while Dark Eldar or Orks or whoever actually run a specific system. And in regards to hisec/lowsec/nosec, in the 40K Universe there might actually be very few true 1.0-0.8 systems. A lot of their system control, sovereignty and security is very short ranged and you can have vast stretches of lowsec/nosec outside of that.
In fact I think that most actual Imperial Navy fleets would be in high-sec areas anyways, while most "Xenos" races would play elsewhere (making them somewhat of a non-factor, depending on specific game design).
The Imperial Navy is fucking miniscule compared to the size of Imperial space it's expected to cover. Other races will typically have vastly superior technology (both Dark and Craftworld Eldar, Necrons, Tau), vastly superior numbers (Tyranids and Orks), or in the case of Chaos, somewhat superior technology in the form of older ships or wonky shit with various warp stuff.
Am I alone in the fact that when "EVE style" was brought into the discussion early, I believed we meant skill systems, trade, manufacture, discovery and a vast open galaxy with planets we could hot drop onto and fight for resources and territory with a multitude of races, factions and sub-factions? .... and very little of flying ships in space.
The reason I (and Erronius, I'm assuming, please say otherwise if you don't) have looked at the WH40K universe as a great place to play an MMO is because it's not limited to flying around in space, or a parking lot, or a building, or keep sieges. You've got a metric fuckton of lore, story, style at your fingertips, add in the Warp and there's pretty much nothing you cannot actually do in a game like that. Want to have a hot drop style encounter with dinosaurs? Done. Want to survey a new planet that's populated with Amazonian women? done. Want to establish trade relations with you neighbours? Want to bomb the ever living fuck out of your neighbours? Would you like to sail on seas of blood while fighting a fleet of renegade Banshees that are scouring the ocean looking for an STC? Would you like to explore a recently opened planet that was once enveloped in the Warp, only to find out the scenario you are in is warp fragment from Seattle in the 1990s?
This is the major reason why developers and even Games Workshop themselves with BFG as an example, take small sections of the WH40K universe to task at a time. It's on a scale you cannot even begin to imagine at first.
The next major hurdle after that is the content itself. The religious, political, and social issues the WH40K universe plays with, isn't terribly appealing to the average joe. It's a dark future, so fucking dark it's impossible to comprehend in real terms. With the massive pall of negativity hanging over the game world, I can't see many people picking it up and sticking with it. You think it's rare to find chicks playing MMOs that aren't a little bit cutesy now? That figure would be horrifically low in this game world.
Last edited by Sabbat; 06-15-2013 at 07:14 AM.
I have to admit, you guys are thinking way too big. As I read through this thread, and the excellent suggestions it contains, I cannot help but see the stereotypical game show counter spinning faster and higher.
Normally I don't comment on threads like this but fuck it, I have actually thought about this way more than anyone reasonably should, with a ~10 page concept I made for fun and to test a new piece of writing software (Scrivener is pretty awesome btw.)
So, here is the conclusion I reached. As awesome as a vast, sprawling, multi-race, Eve style MMORPG in the 40k universe would be I don't really think it is possible to make such a game within a reasonable, or even unreasonable, budget. I'd strip the game way down to its bare parts for release.
I would structure the game simply at launch. The game is PvE based, and all players are Space Marines (or, if you REALLY want female characters include the Sisters of Battle). The classes fall into general archetypes, I was thinking something like Tactical, Assault, Devastator, and Tech Marines. Each one has a selection of equipment, sometimes overlapping, that determines their "abilities". Moment to moment game-play would resemble the under appreciated (IMO) "Space Marine" game that came out a couple of years ago. So, a combination of melee and shooter game-play with load outs and limited ability selection within a level.
Progression is achievement based, you don't have levels per say but you can unlock gear, upgrades, and whatever progression elements you have through completing certain objectives or kinds of objectives. So, killing 5 hive tyrants would unlock the relic flamer for example (spit-balling here).
Content itself would be, like I said, primarily PvE based with perhaps a VR arena or something that includes "just-for-fun" PvP. Essentially the players would be fighting for control of the galaxy against an AI that attacks and invades planets/ships. The Space Marine players are "strike team" style groups of ~5 that drop pod (or board) into a level to complete a mission. The specific mission is a combination of race/location/control. For example, if you are attacking Orc Controlled Planet X, your mission might be to find and kill the Warboss... but if Planet X is under Imperial control and the Tyranids are attacking the mission (with roughly the same level design) would be to defend the outpost while destroying the Brood Nests. At launch the AI only races would be limited to the more inhuman/"Evil" races probably the Tyranid, Orcs, and Dark Templar. The Tyranid and Orc because it is fun to mow down hordes of enemies, the DT because they are known pirates and would be interesting to battle in boarding/repelling actions.
I am pretty sure, with good tech and clear direction a game like this could be made for a reasonable amount of money, say 20 million at the high end and 10 million at the low end assuming all of the art/content is AAA quality. There would be a healthy amount of re-use within the more expensive parts of the game (level building, art/animations) while still having all hand-crafted content and hopefully interesting mission design. New content introduction would be pretty easy, adding planets or new missions to planet/territory rotations. The cost would still be fairly high though, since no matter which way you slice it PvE games cost money because they rely on content.
There would be an element of strategic play on a galaxy map, players could lose/gain advantages by capturing or holding certain planets/territories for the Imperium. Ultimately it is a cooperative game, so it would benefit everyone for players to work together, hopefully limiting the toxicity of the community.
What is good about this is that with a low initial time/cost to get the game out the door it wouldn't spend ages in development hell and the game can be further expanded post launch with new areas, player races, ship battles, and PvP.
Denaut, i think that's the single, most incredibly horrible and stupid idea anyone has ever had connected to the idea of a 40k mmo. Hell, i'm sure you are the very first person actually trying to push PoE at all. Any idea or concept for a 40k mmo is build around "how the fuck we can do the pvp as massive as possible in a realistical way" , not around killing ork_boy_04897294820 for 50xp
I'm the first to say an EVE system is impossible to make right, but for completely different reasons, connected to the lore and the playerbase
you are basically describing World of 40000. And you will see rivers of blood dedicated to Khorne if something like this was made
The only, realistical chance to see a great game based on 40k is to expand Space Marine. Sure the pvp was nothing major of course, but it was a breath of fresh air after years of covering system or "die with 2 bullets" games. The assault class alone is the single greatest class in any FPS. Add more classes (scout librarian techmarine / various demons), vehicles and destruction system in gigantic maps and you are done
basically, Battlefield 4 in year 40000
Hell, implement a "squad based avatar" and you can include Imperial Guard/Traitor guards without breaking the lore (IE a IG player doesnt simply has a single model avatar, but brings with him like 10 bots that act as part of him)
In fact that would open up significantly more possibilities without stepping on the fluff. Also there really is nothing that you could come up with from Eve, that I couldn't come up with a BFG equivalent. The rules and fluff (as light as you might think it is) actually support quite a few variants. However, at least from what I have read so far, the majority of those options are found among the IN. By the way, historically its been the Empire's ego and belief that they were impervious to the denizens of the galaxy that got them in trouble in the first place.
Second, you're right, I suppose Eldar and all the other factions can be their own thing living within the Imperial sectors (as it is now anyways). Problem I have with that, is the Dark Eldar corp that ends up with a huge swathe of Segmentum Obscurus... lol
But I have to ask you this though; In 40K what game has really stepped outside the norm in terms of the weapons and vehicles available from what you see in the mini's game? The Dawn of War series, even Space Marine, didn't really get "creative" as you guys suggest. Sure they probably added one or two weapons, but for the most part they stayed restricted to what the plastic kits have.
Honestly I don't really have an argument since Eve just calls the same laser or missile a million different things. I guess you'd do the same for a lance battery or what ever.
I contend that the STO model would be perfect for WH40K.
We start with just Imperials and Chaos. The two can't visit each other's main homeworld. There would be space and ground content for both so they can level independently. You would have warzone instances of both ground and space where Imperials and Chaos can duke it out.
Space Marines would be a DoFF for your ship in addition to unlockable Deathwatch or what ever Boffs. Later on in the cash ship you could purchase a Space Marine Pack that includes a Strike Cruiser and a pack of 4 SM BoFFs, you'd still be playing Imperium. As the game progresses they could add the Eldar as the third independent faction, and Orks. Ships would be modular, allowing you to set them up to what ever specific role you wish (lance batteries, weapon batteries, launch bays, what ever). As for the mini's game, yeah the other factions didn't have a lot of those options, but BFG Magazine added a lot of that stuff to the other fleets, as well as gave fluff to explain it.
There are enough classes and variants to support all tiers and roles if we're going by STO as a base model.
Last edited by Helldiver; 06-15-2013 at 09:14 AM.
The 40k universe is huge and varied. The IP is already sliced into many different levels, and for that reason can be parsed into different kinds of games. For example:
* Squad-based D&D like Inquisitor single player RPG/Puzzle game
* Battlefield 40k (like you said and it would be awesome, but isn't really an MMORPG)
* Tactical Turn-Based Strategy Game (X-Com 40k)
* RTS/Tactical RTS (Dawn of War games)
* Galaxy Spanning emergent MMORPG
* Single Player Linear Shooter (Space Marine)
Many people's relationship to the 40k Universe isn't even through the actual tabletop game. I personally have never played it (read some of the rule books though). I have no stats for this of course, but I think, like me, lots of gamers that enjoy the IP relate to it through the books and stories. That was what I centered my concept of the game around, my relationship to Warhammer 40k and how that would realistically translate MMORPG that might actually get made and be fun.
Not all of 40k revolves around PvP, and almost none of it revolves around massive PvP. That is your concept, and it isn't a bad one, but it isn't the only one. Even the tabletop is fairly limited in scope (yes I know about apocalypse). Insisting that there is ONE way to do a 40k MMO and that it MUST include massive PvP is incorrect. I personally would love to BE the heroic Space Marine going on dangerous and difficult missions with his squad-mates that I follow in the books, and the MMORPG space is excellently suited for this type of game-play. Just because you don't get satisfaction around mowing down hordes of enemies and can't see past your limited scope of just how great PvE done right can be, doesn't mean it isn't a good way to make a 40k MMORPG.
you are mixing elements of a single player, multiplayer and mmo games
let's distinct please
if we are talking about a mmo done right (enphasys on done right), then i remark what i said....it cant be done. period. For the simple reason that it must be a pvp based game, and this will introduce the problems of balancing the factions while staying true to the lore. It is a problem that plagued pvp games since DaoC. Every server had his overwhelming faction. Hell even WoW had the same problem until the introduction of cross server arena. You create alliances and you will have things like the Eldar mangina Elftits playing alongside his Dark Templar buddie. No thanks
and a PvE 40k mmo would fail worse than Vanguard
now, if we are talking about a singleplayer game, sure there are tons of options. Personally i would love a RPG games with an inquisitor as main character. It would show the massive world and the lore like any other (something that Spacemarine completely failed to do).
Denaut, I understand and agree with your view for a WH40K *game*. It would (as you describe it) be best suited for a CO-OP RPG the like of Borderlands. You could drop a WH40K skin straight on top of Borderlands and have a decent game. Fuck around with the item drops and tie them less to the items themselves and more to skills and you'd have a better game. 4 player squads would be excellent in the type of game you've described.
I feel that MMO is being misunderstood on both sides of the fence. To me, MMO means "persistent world", and not "lots of people". fucker is talking more about persistent worlds.
I don't completely agree with fucker saying that PvP, staying successful and sticking as close to the lore would be impossible. I do think you'd have to make some hard choices that many people would not like initially. I also think that PvE *should* have a fairly big presence and players should join these large campaigns as elite combat units. I'm talking about the original Alterac Valley but on a much bigger scale, both in numbers and territory -- think more along the lines of GW2s dynamic event system.
Denaut, the one thing you must remember while we kick this idea around is that we don't care how long it would take to build, or how much it would cost. We know that the task would be a mammoth undertaking to do it right, and that's the entire rub of using WH40K for an MMO. Unless you use it all, it's basically worthless. The company that gets that into their heads and works on tech, tools and designs for a truly MASSIVELY multiplayer game will finally do it justice and might just make some cash from it.
You are both misunderstanding me, or more likely I am failing to explain it properly. The concept isn't Space Marine Borderlands (which would work really well), it has a persistent world, the concept is sort of an expanded Planetside 2 versus AI rather than other players. If you launch a mission to push the Tyranid off "Forge World Alpha" and succeed, then the Tyranids are gone and the Imperium owns Forge World Alpha. Now you have access to whatever benefits it provides. You can also now push into Forge World Beta and Gamma (which may be harder or have different benefits). Later on if the Tyranids attack the planet again, and no one comes to defend it, then all of the players collectively lose the bonuses it provided.
It is very much an MMORPG, where your actions are persistent and directly affect every other player in the game world. It is also something that could reasonably be accomplished and would be very fun to play. Game concepts I find exciting are also ones I think can be made, ideas aren't really all that interesting unless they can be acted on.
I understood you just fine, and that would work as I have explained (the AV comments)... your PS2 v. AI is exactly what Firefall was supposed to be, but looks like they have dropped the ball.
Tyranids are a prime example of the perfect NPC villain that shakes the very foundations of the game world and should never be considered for playable races. It just wouldn't be WH40K without the threat of a Chaos raid on a planet to steal some tech while that planet fought off an invasion force, or even a civil uprising. That's the sort of shit you should feel when playing a WH40K game -- the universe is infinitely hostile.
The combination of EVE Online + Dust514 in a WH40K shell would be the ultimate realisation of the franchise as far as video games are concerned. Would be, because nobody is ever going to do it justice.
So Denaut's idea isnt my first pick, the above would be. BUT what he describes can be interpreted as World of 40K (40K is just a bad copy of Starcraft anyway amirite?), or as a mix of Space Hulk and the Dawn of War games. Now I dont know about you, but Space hulk and Dawn of War both owned. I just dont read his suggestion as pulling packs of 4 linked orks that get maintanked 5 times to have a scripted boss fight with an Ork boss. And actually, Space Marine but with a group instead of not single player would fit into the same mold: elite Space Marine squad mowing down aliens and heretics.
Re: game type, yea would probably not be an MMO, galaxy map with benefits or not. It would own as a PS2 version with whole continents for each planet and a huge, interwoven dynamic event system from GW - but its just too big an undertaking and utterly impossible. Stepping away from the MMO it could still work with all the other bells&whistles like advantages for holding certain planets/facilities. Picture a mix of GW1, Dawn of War campaign mode. For PVE that is. For PVP the best I can think of is your squad being in a mix of Alterac valley and DotA.
Last edited by Mr Creed; 06-15-2013 at 11:54 PM.
The 40k universe revolves around conflict yes, but that conflict can take all kinds of different forms. It could take the form of you playing an imperial guard soldier in a massive PvP battle against chaos cultists, or it could take the form of you playing an elite space marine wading chain sword in hand through hordes of Orks with your brothers.
I am not saying that a PvE focused game would be everyone's cup of tea (especially on this board), I was just saying how I would do it. But to insist that in an IP as varied and encompassing as 40k there is only ONE way to express that conflict, or to make an MMO is the only incorrect thing here.
Denaut, you are 100% correct about a lot of the novels, RPGs, card games and video games being based around small scale engagements.You've already covered why that is so. It's really, really hard (read: expensive) to make video games about massive large scale encounters. It's also really hard to write compelling novels about large scale encounters because they are fucking boring without a deep interpersonal experience with which to empathise with.
Think about it for a second, you and a squad, are up against a Ork horde, numbering in the thousands. You're not alone in this endeavour... you've got other SM squads backing you up, Imperial Guard units on outskirts shelling the ever living fuck out of the enemy, you've got aerial assaults on strategic targets and a ton of other shit going on, warp battles.. blah blah blah ... and finally, the additional threat that some other group will want in on the action, and you won't know who they will ally with temporarily, or if at all. You also don't know what those other groups objectives are. There's an entire game in just this scenario alone. But, to stay true and faithful to WH40K, it's not enough. You must go further, this should not be the only conflict going on, there should be potentially hundreds others just like it -- on other worlds, in Hive cities and ancient tombs.
Read some Black Library books like Fulgrim or the Grey Knights and see how authors like Dan Abnett have crafted their squad based stories within the massive universe around them. Sure, he focuses on a few characters at a time, but they generally team up and meet much large squads and populations even. Gaunt's Ghosts is another.
You could make a great CO-OP RPG from WH40K, and you could make a truly, massively complex MMO (persistent universe/world) from it as well. The only thing really holding a developer back, is the willingness to do it. Shit, I'd even suck it up and move from my cozy 30 degree C / 80% humidity lifestyle and freeze my balls off somewhere to be a part of it.
PS: Most of this board is PvE friendly, and doesn't like to have PvP forced on them. That's a major sticking point.
Last edited by Sabbat; 06-16-2013 at 08:10 AM.
I still don't understand why it has to be PvP. I just don't get it, seriously guys I don't get it. I sold over 80k a year of that stuff, kept up to date with it, ran campaigns, slurped GW's cack, and still do, and I still don't understand why an MMO HAS to be PvP. By the way, if you guys have been to a Gamesday, there are a lot of Co-op games, and I don't mean allies. Anything from Space Hulk vs. a referee, to storming a fortress against GW refs, they have all shorts of games where players co-op against a scenario. One of the most fun games I played was a variant of death squads where each player played a single marine trying to infiltrate this huge facility the gw ref had set up.
Let me redefine it to make sure we're on the same level, PvP, Player versus Player right?
Ok now, Fucker, Erronius and whom ever, explain WHY a 40K MMO -HAS- to be open PvP?
What's wrong with a PvE campaign where you run around stomping Ork/Chaos what ever ass? That's not breaking fluff, that's not breaking the nature of the Grim darkness of the future. Hold on let me check... oh right none of my codices or the core rulebook say "In the Grim Darkness there is only war BETWEEN PLAYERS". What's wrong with playing Chaos and stomping SM, or what ever? I don't understand why you guys are adamant against a PvE main game?
Yes I know the mini's game is all about 1v1 or what ever, yeah I get that. But we have to think outside the box if we're going to have an MMO. Have you guys wondered why there hasn't been an MMO yet and why we'd probably be pissed at any treatment they give it?
Again, I see nothing wrong with a PvE based game. Except each faction can have their own starting location with PvP (Optional) zones sprinkled in. Don't understand what's so sissy about that. I'm the first to speak up when ever they pussify 40K, and I don't see an MMO like that bothering me. Actually the only way I foresee a true 40K MMO is a PvE based game. This allows designers to set the proper pacing, tone, and structure. I don't see anything grim about having to wander around getting ganked by six orks day one. Sure yeah yeah, I get it, "grim darkness" and all that, after an hour of that shit, I uninstall.
Shoot, if you played the RPG, that's all you do; you're a retinue going out and doing PvE. No, you don't attack the other players sitting around the table.
Last edited by Helldiver; 06-16-2013 at 09:33 AM.
We're looking in broad terms here, and yet again someone (whoever) is trying to micro their way into a pre-defined system to show why it (in this case) PvE vs. PvP is the way to go.
In pure lore terms, Space Marines are the most xenophobic arsehats in the universe, they'll even kill former humans that have evolved differently unless they submit wholly both on a spiritual and cultural level.
It's the circumstances that find Grey Knights fighting arena battles in worship to Khorne with Eldar and Orkish allies that really show the universes diverse viewpoints. This is why I believe that PvP should indeed be added (and carefully implemented from day one of development). I'm not talking about battlegrounds, I'm more talking about lawless space like EVEs 0.0 security systems.
If an Banshee squad and an SM squad meet each other while staking out a Tyranid nest site, there should be a moment when the players in those teams ask themselves... do we fight? do we talk? do we team up? do we run away and shit talk them for playing their respective races? I'd like the players themselves to sort that out. It would add a layer of life to the game that you wouldn't see in a (general) LF3M - SM-Dev/Tech/Apoc - Battle of Istvaan IIV - no noobs, 4k gs+.
It also gives a level of chaos to a rather structured world (read: toys vs. games), and difficulty that outshines any AI that doesn't aimbot.
Shit, I'd even like to see FF turned on so the abuse of AoE mechanics just gets stomped into the ground. Shelling your SM squad with a Baneblade (with FF turned off) might be effective, but it's something that would never happen unless that Baneblade was under Chaos control.
EVE's security ratings in systems is a perfect way to help the newer players slide into the universe without getting camped by 4 Orks outside their starting zone. Once that player leaves the more protected areas.. well, the universe is hostile. There's so many ways you can use PvP in a PvE sorta game to make it just fucking epic.
How about this:
We've got a serious issue on the surface of this world, the Imperial population has been declining, and production has slowed to all-time lows. Your crew of SMs have been sent in after an Inquisitor has gone missing in one of the Hive cities on the surface. Another group has also been sent to this Hive city, it's a group of Eldar looking for a warp relic. The relic that the Eldar are after is drawing warp influences into the city and a small Chaos cult has started to thrive with the increase in warp power. When the two (or maybe more) opposing teams arrive in the same area of influence there's a pop-up that alerts both sides and there's a map vote -- do we treat the other team as hostile or not, y/n?
If yes gets selected, all global chat is now squelched in the area/planet/instance/whathaveyou and factional PvP is now active. If no is selected, factional warfare is turned off (in a default state for this particular event). There's no reason you can't have different areas, and different levels of PvP engagements within those areas. Player/guild owned outposts with defense cannons that fuck up opposing factions on sight? yes please.
Look, there's going to be a bunch of arsehats that just want to kill everyone, everywhere with no consequence. Fuck those people. PvP can be a real addition to a game but most devs just don't give a fuck and pander to either the gankers or the carebears with nothing really in between for people like me that love BOTH aspects of the game (and not necessarily at the same time).
I'm not some sort of PvP homer, but that's because 1) most PvP today blows, 2) games normally aren't built from the ground up to encompass PvP, and 3) even when a game is, it rarely if ever has a compelling reason to actually contribute to the overarching goals that players should have.
My question to you would be, what kind of PvE are you expecting to have? If it's going to be some sort of FPS PvE experience against NPCs, then yeah I have no interest in that at all. Most FPS type games where you introduce bots is usually atrocious and half of the time the AI is functionally retarded or people crank up their ability to HEADSHOT people since true AI difficulty is still beyond of our grasp. At least against other players you can level the playing field somewhat in regards to skill and challenge, you just have to address the imbalance in player numbers. Now, if you say that you don't want some sort of PvE FPS experience and instead you want some sort of standard PvE MMO, well, yeah gonna pass on that as well. I've played umpteen PvE MMOs, and killing MOAR ORKS just doesn't really interest me anymore. In my mind making a 'World of 40K-craft' would be an abortion of such scope that most of us would be struck with a sense of awe. After we all grind out levels by killing a metric fuckton of snotlings and decking our characters out in [green] solo quest gear, we can try putting a group together to farm a bunch of [blue] dungeon drops so that we can all start raiding the Chaos Space Marine bosses 3 nights a week for [purples]until we can get [Abaddon the Anal Rapist] on farm status so that we can kill him repeatedly for months at a time like some sort of demented MMO version of "Groundhog Day". This will be difficult as not only will we get to deal with the same derps that we've been forced to raid with for the last 10 or more years as well as whackamole raid design because the raid model is now completely played out, but we'll also get the added difficulty of trying to keep enough people playing because no one with a functional brainstem wants to keep doing this bullshit anymore and a 40K PvE MMO should be punishable by immolation.
When I say that I am looking towards PvP, I'm not talking instanced battlegrounds or arenas, nor am I talking about FFA PvP gankfests either. I want a game where there is some player friction though. I want factions that actually MEAN SOMETHING, in that player conflict in the game has some actual bearing on the state of the game world itself. This doesn't have to mean that one faction has the opportunity to take over the entire universe, but there should be some sort actual player/gameworld interaction where player conflict actually results in an outcome that isn't a PvP rank, title, honor points, ranking, gear tokens or whatever other kinds of bullshit gets pushed on us.
What I detest is people that insist on forcing every available IP into the current PvE MMO model as though that is the only way that an MMO can work. We've seen this with tons of MMOs now and I for one am sick to death of it. I actually think that the current PvE paradigm itself is the biggest reason why so many of the current MMOs just kind of fizzle out. I give credit to games like GW2, but seriously, they've managed (IMHO) to ruin what they have. Spec mode, glory and rank, I mean FFS it's all structured PvP. It isn't a living, breathing world, it's a glorified battleground.
This is what it boils down to, for me: I want a world. A living, breathing gameworld that I can interact with. I want to put the RPG back into MMORPG via actual character development choices and not +xp or ability skills alone or being forced to actually talk in Vent like a dwarf. I want a game that gives me negative reinforcement (overarching player faction friction) instead of simply using positive reinforcement constantly in the form of +gooder items or purples. And here we have the 40K universe, which to me would be perfect for such a game. And yet, people want to see it made into another PvE MMO.
Besides, which Space Marine would be wearing junk looted off an Ork?
What Denault was suggesting is a MMORPG in which you face numbers of planets and complexes to secure/protect, and, based on achievements, you'd be able to draw from the stores of the Space Armory. You don't get a flamethrower unless you've squared off against some upper-echelon Tyranids, and so on. You get some xp/levelling to increase innate capacities, you get achievement-driven stuff to get gear (two different progression axis). A high-level strategic "general command" AI designates priorities based on overall ebb and flow of the eternal war, and you can attempt some objectives solo (and hope not to get destroyed if you cross into a squad-level area at the wrong time), or do squad. No raid per se, unless you count the fact that you can have large complexes with a dozen or more 6-man squads involved (and you not only get credit if you make your objectives; you get credit if the others achieve theirs).
The setup is similar to a PvP game, but with a major difference, and that's the fact that the AI adjusts its difficulty and strength to the players online, rather than the designers hoping there's about an equal balance between, say Imperium, Tyranids, Eldars and Orks, both on capacities of players, but also number of players. Less chance of a wreck.
Again, it seems that everyone instantly assumes that PVE = WoW-clone. Hey, no one wants a WoW clone set in W40K. But a PVE game doesn't have to be a WoW clone. Granted, 95% of the devs are probably too stupid to envision anything else, or, if they are, some execs are probably going to get cold feet at one point and try to ask their devs "isn't this too diifferent from WoW? Can we have some yellow ! marks somewhere?".What I detest is people that insist on forcing every available IP into the current PvE MMO model
First, academy/training. Essentially, a quick and relatively simple tutorial.
From the moment you step out of the academy and get issued your newbie gear, the game is fully open. You can pick one of the regional HQ, which acts as a kind of lobby. You can check there the tac board, which tells you which planets are on what status (safe - you can do easy solo stuff there with few enemies around to pass time - under attack - meaning you need to set up and man defenses - or being invaded - you need to clear stuff and kick alien ass out). You can attempt solo stuff or group (with friend list and some form of guild, or LFG tool), and get dropped on a complex. You cruise the halls (or corridors of space hulks, or whatever) with your squad toward the objective you picked from the available list (or got randomly assigned if LFG). Along the way, you get XP, which can be spent to open up abilities (passive/active), and achievements (which, as I said, open up some advanced gear). If you wipe, you're back on the lobby (anyone in your group can apply electroshocks outside of combat to rez; you only wipe if you all die). If you win, you can pick a new objective in the same complex from those that don't have squads assigned yet, or help some local squads for giggles, or get evaced back to the lobby.
Each complex if successful gets your side some control points. The enemy gets control points based on time, difficulty, focus (the Eldars really want this specific planet).
Difficulty ("level") is represented by military ranks, which come from achievement score (not grindable xp). Your squad can only fight in complexes if it has at least one member of required rank (the rest can be newbies, if you want to bring your low-level friends and think it's doable). Highest-level squad "lead" is going to act as "point man", i.e. tank, but anyone can potentially be the tank if needed (and medic, of course). The achievement structure rewards going for hard complexes, but you can get xp from any. Optionally: guild members can "lend" to their squadmates of the same guild any of the weapons they're entitled to, but are not using.
Here you have. Your PVE-based MMO, with objectives, meaningful influence on the world, opportunities to help groups, and whatnot. And it doesn't look like World of Warhammer at all. And it's probably a lot cheaper that WoW (hey, same initials!).
If you want to play a Space Marine, or an Eldar Farseer, you don't GET a newbie set of gear, and you sure as shit don't enter and leave an academy. Maybe if playing the SM side of things you only had access to the Scout archtype? or IG you just had a lasgun?
If we used Necromunda as the baseline for a "40K" style MMO, you'd have more luck with this kind of progression, which is a great idea. It's just not how you'd do a serious attempt at WH40K in all its glory.
WH40K in all its glory is the game we (me and I'm assuming a few others like Erronius) want to play -- the living-breathing, hostile universe.
...and I swear to the Emperor, that if some other cunt uses the words, tank or medic to describe any part of a supposed WH40K game, I will find the nearest Commissar and have you executed for treason.
I've come full circle, it's impossible to build a decent WH40K MMO.
Hmm. I know its a pipe dream but....
When is GW going to see the light and understand that an exact fucking port of the table top game to the PC would be a fucking gold mine.
We live in the age of micro transactions. Buy a squad of 5 marines for 10.00. Add special weapons for 2 bucks each. Convert it to assault or heavy for 15.00. Buy paint set with limited use for 5.00. Add any number of cosmetic enhancements on each squad member for 1.00 each. Sell a really, really basic 1000 point army of any race for 30.00 to start people off and allow for games up to any point total.
No stores, no retail employees, no warehouses full of shit or any overhead at all. Or stay with 1980s business model.
-Space Marine; Single player game. I didn't buy it for the multiplayer portion. Also, one of the features asked for the most was the Co-op campaign that never came, instead we got the exterminatus thing. To be honest with you? All of my friends that have played SM when asked about a 40K MMO, want more SM, but able to co-op it with friends and go on more missions. With the option to play as Chaos and have locations along their way where they can duke it out against space marines and vice versa.
-Dawn of War series, 1 and 2. Doubt multiplayer was its strength. It sold on its single player campaigns. I only played multiplayer with my buds. Neither of those games were anything like Warcraft of StarCraft in terms of multiplayer community. Why do I say this? If the common consensus is that PvP is 40K's strength in the PC gaming world, what better source to use than the Dawn of War games. I never felt that multiplayer was ever their greatest strength and main reason people bought those games, I could be wrong though.
The reason why I threw in the dark heresy examples was to show that a co-op MMORPG with a lot of depth is very feasible, optional Pvp thrown in.
Actually, be interesting to take a survey of the local gaming groups to see what their take on it is, I can easily do that. We have a hobbytown that rakes in about 30-40 every Friday night for gaming, and another store that has a Wednesday campaign. Back when I had my own store, we talked the same BS we're talking about right now, a 40K mmo. Most of the hype back then was around the Warhammer fantasy one by mythic. Rarely did any of the numerous neckbeards ever say "it must have pvp at it's core and pvp must be meaningful". The main talk back then was a game similar to Inquisitor, where all players were imperials banding together.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with PvP. Hell, I got no problem with Planetside in 40K land, I'd actually prefer that. I just don't understand why you guys say that PvP has to be at its core. When you say 0.0 space, I translate that to mean: I -must- PvP to get the better shit. Unless you guys mean just the mechanic and not the risk-reward part (which then defeats the whole purpose).
I just don't see GW taking a risk (or any small company licensor) taking a risk on something like that. GW already has a track record of catering to the WoW sort of game composition:
-Mythic's Warhammer Online
-The original warhammer online was going to be that everyone was Empire (and allies of the empire), fighting the various denizens of the setting. Keep in mind that this first iteration of the game was almost entirely funded by GW and they had both hands in the cookie dough.
-In White Dwarf 300 (if I recall correctly), GW themselves said that "Movie Marines" (i.e. the concept of Space Marines found in the novels and fluff) is not conducive to proper balanced gameplay and that concessions have to be made in the spirit of sportsmanship and fun. Be interesting to see how that idea translates to the rest of their IP's and MMOs derived from them.
I'm not saying the game should ONLY be PvE, or PvP, I'm just playing devil's advocate on behalf of Grandma Wendy knowing how they prefer the big bucks.
Last edited by Helldiver; 06-17-2013 at 04:38 AM.
It's probably not much more or less a hard sell than a PVP-based game to PVE players. And there's a lot of them. Consider that 75% of the players in EVE don't step out of Empire. There's 144 PVP servers vs 138 PVE servers in WoW EU. The point we probably do agree is that you can't make a good PVE-and-PVP game. One of the facets is going to be shit.
Just like any PVE-based game. Unbeatable AI is easy; all AI gets intended design flaws so that you can figure how to beat them. And it's also easier to adjust if something is wrong, because the AI isn't going to flood your forums with complaints about being nerfed.It's give and take. You're assuming that the AI would work well, wouldn't be exploitable, or any number of other issues.
Possibly. We may very well need TWO Warhammer 40k MMOsbut what you describe sounds completely uninteresting to me.
I presume you also viscerally hate every single movie that adapt a novel. When you change medium, the way the background is presented, and which parts are used, changes. It's inevitable. And that's why a MMO is not going to be a tabletop game or a complete, 100% accurate, faithful adaptation of every sentence ever written in the lore books. If you can't deal with that fact, no game based on an existing non-game IP is ever going to be decent.t's impossible to build a decent WH40K MMO.
New dev video - behavior team.
See @3:21 for in game footage. Interesting.
Little bit more info here:
Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
Let's hope it is more like PlanetSide type open world PvP.
The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see something like PvEvP in the way that the open world is essentially a coop against AI and when you want PvP, it's more like WAR's scenarios or just matches like Space Marine. Of course you can/will expand on simple DM/DTF/Dom/ect, but keep the general chassis as is: Small scale PvP, Big Scale PvE.
Also, I'm not even considering any other race other than Space Marine. What Chapter to be?
Didn't this game get shitcanned?
I think one thing that would get 40k some of the best press possible would be a really well done movie. I am talking Saving Private Ryan style cinematic and grittiness. Focus kinda small to begin with (maybe a world that is lost from Terra) to introduce people to the world or use Imperial Army that gets hit by Orks or something. Then toward the end, show at least a handful of Space Marines. Something like that would pump so much into the franchise.
That said I would like to see a movie that wasn't CG.
Maybe a movie that depicted the human empire as the depraved, paranoid, vicious, personality cult that the source material makes it out to be... focus on the inquisition side of things. Show them torturing and killing their own. Killing innocents. Make the "cults" they are pursuing seem reasonable in resisting such a draconian authority. Really make it look like humanity has almost no redeeming qualities. Then, just when people think they have it figured out that the inquisition is insane and are cheering for the resistance, bring in the bad guys. Have the forces of chaos get summoned, by the cultists, through a new tear in the warp appearing right in the thick of it.
Then just turn the place into a bloody mess and show what happens when the warp takes hold of a populated center. In the aftermath, despite humanity being wretched and horrible, the audience would be aware that there are far worse things out there.
A few shop owners and I had talked in a group setting after they had spoke to GW distribution about a PC version of 40k. They were all led to believe that since paints are so profitable for GW, they have no intention of doing a pure PC port at this time.
Not sure if the math really makes that true, but I would really love to see a PC game. I don't buy anything now, but I would buy digital minis and play online.
We could get Roger Christian to direct, as I think he'd nail the size disparity between normal humans and Space Marines. He worked magic with the Psychlos in Battlefield Earth.
lol, does anyone in GW's finance department know how much bank Magic Online gets?
Last I checked TOR is still a hotbar/tab-targeting MMO. Gameplay in the style of Space Marine would be an entirely different (and better) game even if you used the Star Wars universe instead of WH40K.
Was reading 40k rumor stuffs today...
Faeit 212: Warhammer 40k News and Rumors
Warhammer 40,000 Eternal Crusade: 40k MMO - Faeit 212: Warhammer 40k News and Rumors
Exclusive Pre Alpha Gameplay Footage | Warhammer 40.000: Eternal Crusade Videos | MMORPG
I have been given permission to post up a preview of the pre-alpha version of the new 40k MMO, Eternal Crusade. A Warhammer 40k MMO has always been something I was interested in, as I would love to see the 40k universe from a first person perspective and was a little frustrated when Dark Millennium went away. So of course any news on a new game catches my attention, and this one takes on the look and feel of the first person shooter Space Marine.
Please remember that this is pre-alpha, and things will only get better from here, graphics, game play, etc.
It is approved early footage of the 40K MMO - Eternal Crusade. The team at Behaviour Interactive let us in to play the game and have signed off on us showing the footage. Even GW signed off on it.
Wait so a 40k mmo is still in the works? Did I miss something? Who picked this up when THQ/Vigil folded?
Im excited about it. Not a fan of the over the shoulder view. Would prefer either first person or 3rd person Star Wars battlefront style. Everything else looks pretty sweet. I'm curious though what separates this from Space Marine? Looks exactly like playing Space Marrine online. Oh goody gumdrops i gets to be an Ork.
To tolerate their existence is heresy.
The worst thing about Space Marine by far was the incomprehensibly terrible ending. The Ultramarines are one of the most powerful institutions in the entire Imperium, they are significantly more than just another space marine chapter. So while it's vaguely believable that a misguided young newbie like Leandros might make the mistake of running to get an Inquisitor because of his suspicions of his captain, when that inquisitor made that threat about 'you will come with me or I will condemn your entire chapter' the captain should have just laughed right and his face and said something to the effect of 'only brothers can judge me'.
Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade's founder program detailed
Within the next few months you will be able to buy a Founder's Pack for Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade. Buying a Founder's Pack will give you full access to the full game at launch, and all four races. You'll also get to select unique rewards from the following categories:
► Identity – Enhance your character's core identity with unique Founders-only squad emblems, Heroes, and background-related titles, biographies, and cosmetics
► Weapon Skins – Unique cosmetics for each race
► Armor Skins – Unique cosmetics for each race
► Space Ship Decorations – Unique cosmetics to dress up your Squad or Strike Force Cruiser's interior the way you want
► Miscellaneous – Unique execution animations and pets, both utility and non-combat
► Vehicles – Unique Founders-only vehicles
► Consumables – Extra ammunition, grenades, and other convenience items
► Accessories – Unique equipment pieces
"full access to the full game at launch"
Wow, what a perk.
If they are so desperate they have to beg for money why don't they just use Kickstarter? Hmm, since development has already started, I guess they'd need "Jumpstarter" instead?
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