The sweet taste of e cigs really just doesn't do it for me like an actual cig. However, I can live off them when I'm not drinking. When I am, I haven't had the self control to say no yet.
Anyone here use E-cigarettes? Its been about 16 days of me using it and so far I have not had one real cig and I have not felt the urge to have one yet. Although I have not drank yet. BTW, I have quit smoking before, last time was for about 3 yrs. But around 2008 I started again until about 16 days ago.
Edit: SO I have been doing some reading and watching some videos on you tube. So here are some good links...
Do it yourself Juice
http://www.wizardlabs.us/ - This is a good place to get concentrated nicotine juice PG/VG bases and flavorings... THey also sell droppers/bottles/syringes..etc...
DIY E-Cig Supplies E-Cigarette Liquid | Make Your Own E-Liquid | RTS Vapes
Vaping Equipment US
Vaping Equipment Chinese
OK, so what I have learned is that basically all the equipment is made in China, like 90% of all bateries/mods etc are made there so if you can handle the long shipping times, thats the place to buy the shit since its like 50% of the price the US resellers sell it for.
Last edited by mkopec; 11-08-2013 at 08:26 PM.
The sweet taste of e cigs really just doesn't do it for me like an actual cig. However, I can live off them when I'm not drinking. When I am, I haven't had the self control to say no yet.
There are no studies on long term effects with e-cigs, nor the quit rate. Nicotine in the dosage used is still poisonous. Hospitals ban the usage of these where I live, safety principle. I dont understand why anyone thinks e-cigs are safe. Afaik the market for the juice is a free for all. Why gamble with your health? Seems like reasonable questions.
Right on Fox today.
Anyways I use Blu for my Ecig and love the Pina Colada flavor and smoke flavors.
I use Blu because of the lack of some word I cannot even type but basically it is antifreeze that most use.
My doctor told me even those are healthier than a cig do the such lose dosage it has compared to the thousands of chemicals in a normal cig.
I started this with 3 friends about 3 months ago. Both of them quit cigs then the Ecigs less than a month later and both remain smoke free now for over a month now. They were smokers for almost 20 years.
I personally still smoke normal and when I am places or jobsites I use the Ecigs.
The first week I use Ecig only and I FELT a ton better, sense of smell was coming back but I noticed I was eating more and having more cravings to fearing I would gain weight went back to half and half. I probably was having a harder time them them due to the fact for the past 5 years I have been a 3 pack a day+ smoker.
If you don't like the "flavors" they have try the classic tobacco from Blu, full strength. It is very similar in taste and effect of a normal Marlboro.
My favorites are the Pina Colada like I said above and the medium strength Java Jolt.
I probably could have stayed on just Ecigs had it not been the hunger thing( not able to get enough nicotine to provide for what was 3+ packs a day ) and the fact if you puff on them to much in a short time it burns you a bit.
If you are looking to quit smoking all together Ecigs is probably the best way to do it. You still get nicotine, you still have something to puff on, and after a few weeks you can start to lower the amount of nicotine in the carts down to 0.
I like that it had a usb charger and the cig pack itself held carts and charged the battery as well. Between the 2 batteries it included and a charged pack for the first week when I was on ONLY blu, I could keep one going the 10 hours a day I was working until I got home to recharge the pack.
I tried 21st century( trash) and also the Njoy disposables( Great! cept it only lasts about the same as 15 cigs or so even though it says 2 packs per)
Have not tried any other brands.
Most stores now carry a few brands in disposables, so if you want to try it get one of those $7-10 ones first and if you like it get that brands starter pack.
I agree not many studies now long term are on it but it has GOT to be healthier.
If they are not your thing, switch to Winston ( no additives ) or best case American Spirit smokes due to the fact they don't add all the chemicals and flame retardants to it. 100% tobacco has to be better than the shit Marlboro and others add to it.
Final words I should take my own advice, but I am to stupid.
Any other questions about them , let me know.
BTW why was this thread moved? Im not reviewing products here?
Last edited by mkopec; 04-23-2013 at 10:00 PM.
Anecdotal evidence coupled with slippery slope arguments like 'it has GOT to be healthier' is not really the best way to go about your health, truth or anything resembling a scientific approach. If it worked for you, cool. Do we know if you'll get cancer or other health related problems from the e-cig in 20 years? No. There already exist numerous tested and safer ways to cut down on nicotine usage, inhalers (passive), sprays, gum, not to mention going cold turkey. Why not use these if the point is quitting? I smoked cigarettes for a while, not trying to be a dick or self righteous. Took me a while with the passive inhaler, but I went from 20 to 0 cigarettes from day one. Don't need to replace an unhealthy habit with another. Just my 2 cents anyway - addiction is a bitch
RuyanŽ V8 nicotine e-cigarette users do not
inhale smoke or smoke toxicants. The modest
reductions recommended in 2008 by WHO’s
Tobacco Regulation committee for 9 major
toxicants in cigarette smoke, in line with Articles 9
and 10 of the FCTC (WHO Framework
Convention Tobacco Control treaty), are already
far exceeded by the RuyanŽ e-cigarette, as it is
free of all accompanying smoke toxicants.
Absolute safety does not exist for any drug, but
relative to lethal tobacco smoke emissions, Ruyan
e-cigarette emissions appear to be several
magnitudes safer. E-cigarettes are akin to a
medicinal nicotine inhalator in safety, dose, and
Last edited by mkopec; 04-23-2013 at 10:37 PM.
can't believe that this shit is illegal in Canada but tobacco is. fucking health canada citing "unknown dangers." How about the god damn tobacco which has KNOWN dangers? I am gonna just go with gov't not wanting to lose tax revenue from tobacco, or cigarette oligarchs yapping about pushing it through. so much bullshit.
That's one huge reason here in the states they get such a hard time from FDA and the government, Big Tobacco pays out so much money it's ridiculous. Last I knew the FDA wouldn't even sanction an official study on them, meanwhile rumors are Big Tobacco is working on their own brand of e-cig as smoking laws become more and more common.
Get a Provari and then a boge F16 tank for it. You won't regret it.
Also mtbakervapor.com for your juices. Try the ectocooler.
Tried e-cigs, always just made me want a real cigarette. Smoked between 1.5 and 2 packs a day for several years in college until my sister bought me this book for graduation. http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Carrs-Ea...+by+allen+carr
Read it one Saturday, haven't smoked since and never will. Went to the bar that same night and I had zero desire to smoke. I've yet to have a friend read it and not quit. Sounds gay, the guy's a terrible writer, but it works.
That's awesome Drinsic. How long have you been smoke free?
Both my parents smoke like chimneys and have for 40 years. I'd give anything to get them to quit. My dad has a super rare disease and now prostate cancer so he is of the "wtf ever" mentality and my mom has all the stress to go along with it. She at least entertained the thought of quitting but after my dad was diagnosed with cancer she said fuck it and says it helps her deal with all the stuff going on. -sigh-
Last edited by Tarrant; 04-24-2013 at 02:29 AM.
Only a bit over 1.5 years now. Been through plenty of shitty situations since (breakups, relatives dying, etc.) without the slightest itch. My asshole friends like to try and get me to smoke when I get shithoused, and it's my alleged adamant refusal despite being blackout hammered that got a few of them to read it.
My dad smoked for 20 years. He quit when he and a coworker agreed the first person to smoke another cigarette had to pay the other $500.
I used to smoke 2-4 packs a day (smoke one, start another after) but quit cold turkey about 4 or so years later. Switched an addiction to chewing bubblicious gum, lol.
Brother uses the e-cigs and he hasn't smoked a real cigarette in a very long time. I say go for the e-cig over the normal cigarette.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigaretteIn 2008, Dr. Murray Laugesen of Health New Zealand Ltd. published a report on the safety of Ruyan electronic cigarette cartridges. His study was funded by e-cigarette manufacturer Ruyan, but Laugesen claims that his research is independent. The presence of trace amounts of TSNAs in the cartridge solution was documented in the analysis. The results also indicated that the level of nicotine in the electronic cigarette cartridges was not different from the concentration of nicotine found in nicotine patches. John Britton, a lung specialist at the University of Nottingham, UK and chair of the Royal College of Physicians Tobacco Advisory Group, commented, "If the levels are as low as in nicotine replacement therapy, I don’t think there will be much of a problem." The study's detailed quantitative analysis concluded that carcinogens and toxicants are present only below harmful levels. It concluded: "Based on the manufacturer’s information, the composition of the cartridge liquid is not hazardous to health, if used as intended."
There are no long term studies, nor any RCT on the matter. It's very difficult to make an evidence based judgement without that, Cochrane is in the protocol state:
TLDR; There is not sufficient data to conclude whether e-cigs are safe. Speculating whether they are safe is plain guess work at this point.
Last edited by Izo; 04-24-2013 at 07:29 AM. Reason: Editing on iPad blows
I was going to switch to e-cigs around 18 months ago. Looked around a bit and just smoked tobacco because nobody knows what's in e-cigs really and what are the long term effects. With tobacco, at least I know cancer is probably it.
Then, 13 months ago, I just quit. Had a nasty sinusitis and just stopped smoking. Still have a carton of Luckies in my cupboard, smoked 2 cigs on new year's eve. Almost puked.
Man, the money I burned in those 19 years.
e-cigarette is not meant to cure you of addiction. it is to transfer you from the addiction of tobacco (Nicotine "addiction"). Smokers are already addicted to nicotine anyways, along with countless chemicals known to man.
What the fuck is worse than cancer?
E-cigarettes have multiple purposes. None are medically sanctioned in general.
Addiction takes many forms. Essentially smoking could be percieved as biochemistry, ligand and receptor - and habit, having something in your hands, the application of an object to your lips. The latter produces an afferent stimuli and in turn is coupled with neurotransmitters, reward so to speak. This is again biochemistry, hence me regarding addiction as a biochemical problem in general. The habitual learning is coupled to NMDA receptors on neurons.
While the proposal to exchange a known harmful habit with countless carcinogens, smoking industrially enhanced tobacco, with what could be perceived as a less harmful device, e-cigarettes, might sound appealing, the fact is there is no solid scientific basis for saying so. You are in essence exchanging many harmful substances with unknown substances. You are at the mercy of those who produce the vaporizers, specs do indeed matter, and far worse, those who produce the juice. Nicotine is not the substance one should be concerned with, solely that is. Its effect is well known. The various juice, not so much. Think of the juice as well tested as herbal remedies, and with the same lack of RCT and meta studies.
In essence you're making an equivocation fallacy, based on your common sense. You do not know for a fact if the juice and the heating is indeed harmful in the long run. It cost millions of dollars to obtain that data, and since the long term effects, 20 years+, are highly relevant based on what is known about smoking, I'd say you are a little bold in your statements :-)
There are many different cancer types and different onsets. It's not a dichotomy, and prophylaxis matters greatly. In this regard it's clear that you think you're doing the right thing. I'm saying we already have substitutes for smoking, that does not cause cancer, with known efficacy - and they are available at any pharmacy - why on earth would one then experiment with unknown and scarcely documented factors?
I see the e-cig as a starting point for smoking, or recreational usage. Not a healthy substitute, nor a medical nicotine cessation aid.
Would you care to elaborate on your view? Who knows, we might learn something
Last edited by Izo; 04-24-2013 at 11:10 AM. Reason: iPad fucks me over
-meh, i don't have a dog in this fight.-
Last edited by Tarrant; 04-24-2013 at 12:40 PM.
Not a quitter, just tired of the same ol, same ol.
Yeah, repost of a repost. Why do you come here anyway? No spoilers in this thread
I don't doubt that more options are prefereble - a tool for every need. I don't see how the vaporizers are helpful here compared to inhalers, gum, melters, sprays. It's about drug delivery - nicotine to the blood stream, and in turn the receptors in CNS and PNS. The existing products do this already and are not hazardous in themselves, or their application, and the substance given, nicotine, is in a controlled concentration and administrable dose. If the goal is to quit, these factors are important. One is in much less control with vaporizers and non-medical juice. It just seems backwards to me to focus on the experience being like smoking, when the goal is to quit smoking. It seems to me the goal with a vaporizer is to enhance the uptake of nicotine, and experience. This is not indicative of less addiction.
We already have one Astro around here, we don't need another.
Would you like to talk about what's really pressing you?
I kid, I kid
I HAVE NO VIEW, IZO. E-CIGARETTES ARE ANOTHER ADDICTIVE PRODUCT AND DESIGNED TO BE SO. WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH IT IS NOT MY BUSINESS. IF THEY THINK 100+ LESS CHEMICAL IS BETTER FOR THEM, ALL THE POWER TO THEM. IF THERE IS A CONSEQUENCE, THEY WILL STOP. I DON'T GIVE A SHIT. BOTH WILL KILL YOU. THEY KNOW THEY ARE FUCKED ANYWAYS (75% OF CIG ARE NOW WARNING LABEL) AND FEEL LIKE SHIT EVERYDAY FOR SMOKING TOBACCO. THEY ARE SHAMED EVERY FUCKING DAY FOR DOING IT. I DO CARE IF THEY SMOKE NEXT TO ME THOUGH. I PREFER TO BE AROUND VAPOURS BECAUSE I DON'T GET TO BREATHE THEM QUITE AS OFTEN AS SMOKES FROM TOBACCO. I CONSIDER THAT AS WIN.
Last edited by Trollface; 04-24-2013 at 02:29 PM.
Okay, fair enough. They're banned at hospitals here, Nordics, because no one knows if they're safer to be around - secondary and tertiary smoke / vapor. Seems to me like they should be restricted like cigarettes.
Last edited by Izo; 04-24-2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: iPad, you're killing me.
And again, no one is claiming these are 100% totally safe. What they are, without doubt, is safer than regular cigs.
Last edited by mkopec; 04-24-2013 at 05:03 PM.
I've got an EGO-T, but I don't use it. I should though.
Im still deciding what to buy but the EGO-C is the one Im kind of leaning to.
I've stoped 4 years with the e-cig when i was in europe, then i started smoking again for another 2 years when i got back home. I've read Allen carr's book 6 months ago and i'm smoke free again, it might not work for anyone, but i recommend it if you haven't tried it yet.
Not a smoker just coming in to say that I really respect smokers who quit or are trying to quit and use ecigs to help them do it.
Also even if ecigs are too new a tech to be fully peer reviewed I haven't seen any evidence that their even remotely as harmful as cigs.
e-cigs are no new tech, it's been out since a while, just harder toi find in na
Its literally the worst mistake I made in my life and one of the only things I truly regret, is starting to smoke. LOL, my parents told me, but I did not listen.
Been doing the ecig thing for awhile now. I had been smoking maybe 8 years, a half pack a day / full pack if drinking. Up until about 6 months ago I would still have a few regular cigs when going out to the bar, but since i have stopped that completely i have just stuck with ecigs. I currently own a ego-c twist (variable voltage). Best one yet, i have tried regular ego's, 510's. and other non major brands. I believe the provari version someone mentioned is top notch, expensive and big. Looks like your holding a big pipe to your mouth. The ego-c twist 1000muah version its right in the medium, charge it at night and it lasts all day, about $25 online. I use it in conjunction with a 510 High resistant or low resistant atomizer and a drip tip. I tried to use carts and tanks of all kinds but never really liked them so that's why i direct drip exclusively now. I also mix my own liquids. Buying a 120ml bottle of pre-mixed nicotine PG/VG and then the flavorings have saved about 2-3x the amount than buying them premixed on top of the outrageous cost of buying regular cigs.
I definitely would not buy any convenient store ecigs or the Blu ones, waste of money. Go custom and mix and match what you want. See if there are stores in your area, most BM places in my area will let you try different batteries, tanks, atomizers, eliquid flavors.
1) Finding an article that says what you argue is not really a problem - look here: www.pubmed.org
2) Your find is an article - not a double blinded randomized control trial (aka the gold standard).
3) Finding a respectable top 5 medical journal publishing the same article is hard.
4) Finding a meta analysis of the subject, Cochrane, non existant.
5) Your article is not published (and thus peer reviewed) in one of the world's top 5 medical journals - such as 'The Lancet' and 'New England Journal of Medicine' - serious journals. It's published in a mediocre journal. It affects its credibility etc.
6) There are good reasons to why one compares to placebo and not directly between products. Precisely to correct for placebo / perceived effects.
Basically readers of scientific papers evaluate a given publication's credibility on many levels. This is part of the scientific approach and essential to 'evidence based medicine' f.inst. For starters whom publishes the article is a basic pointer. Google 'impact factor' and 'journal citation reports' for more info. Also, if you have academic login, lookup 'journal of citation reports' and see the impact factor for the publisher - or just take wikipedia's data for granted - I checked, it's precisely average / low end as stated:
TLDR; To put it bluntly: The article you posted does not have sufficient credibility on it's own to make a factual judgment call / case - it's pointing in a certain direction, but the impact and force it has is very small. More research is needed, and your statements on the 'without doubt' is seriously discredited - we do not know the long term effects. This does not prevent us from making educated guesses, sure, but it's not fact, yet.Rank Abbreviated Journal Title
(linked to journal information) ISSN JCR Data More Information EigenfactorŽ MetricsMore Information
Total Cites Impact
Index Articles Cited
Score Article InfluenceŽ
78 J OCCUP HEALTH 1341-9145 2065 1.550 1.638 0.214 56 8.9 0.00283 0.485
This is not even touching on the initial subject of the thread - quitting smoking - as in the efficacy of the device as a smoking cessation aid. AFAIK there are no RCT's or cochrane's on this. Perhaps you've stumbled across them and I have not? Otherwise we're stuck at anecdotal evidence which is just that, anecdotal. Bring on the homeopathic remedies and superstition too, eh?
Last edited by Izo; 04-24-2013 at 10:37 PM.
Izo, if you want to bitch about the semantics of the thread title, do so. A mod can change it to "Vaping your way, or vaping to a possible quit." Would that ease that pussy of yours?
Because that's all you've got. Straight up, the tar content alone of a normal cig makes an e-cig a much better choice, for those that feel they can't quit cold turkey.
Last edited by Sabbat; 04-24-2013 at 11:11 PM.
BUT YOU CAN'T KNOW FOR SURE SABBAT. YOU NEED A CREDIBLE, 100% FOOL PROOF PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL FROM FIVE DIFFERENT PRESTIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS.
The process of going from (A) cigarettes to (B) e-cigs is, I would assume, not difficult. The question is, is it beneficial from a cessation pov - (B) e-cigs to (C) clean? Does it offer an advantage over existing methods or is it simply moving the nicotine user to another platform? More studies are needed to generalize on this. I can see why it would be easier to go from point A to B with e-cigs, as it resembles smoking - it has many of the same characteristics. That's also an argument against it - it doesn't necesarily make B to C any easier. In fact the feeling it's 'safer' might have the reverse effect and prolong the abuse of nicotine. As long as we don't know if B is safer than A, then it is not really compelling as a substitute. Occam's razor. The substitute will need removal at some point as well, drug tapering.
So there is a study though, right? And while you can take some jabs at its credibility, it still exists.
Given that the tone started with "there are no studies" and now has morphed to "yeah well, i guess there's a study but it isn't credible" how long until we're at "yeah...uhhh...I, like, guess e-cigs are probably not as harmful as actual cigarettes."
I just don't get the objection. We have people on the forum here that claim that e cigs helped them quit. You really want to filter the entirety of Rerolled into the scientific method? Why not just let people have a thread where they can talk about e cigs?
any meta studies (Cochrane) beyond the protocol stage. This is what I mean when I say there are no studies. I posted earlier it's not hard to find an 'article' that points in either direction. Do you understand the difference now? One is an opinion, one is a gold standard for examining a subject and one is a study on multiple gold standards evaluating the trend - aka the evidence. They are not equal in value and it matters greatly.
I don't object to anecdotal evidence. It is however, anecdotal and of little real value to anyone, nor does it signify if the product is 'safe. I try to contribute with what little I know. You're free to do the same, by all means, but do try to not misrepresent what I write - argue with me instead. Who knows, I might learn something and be a better person for it
In probably 100% of the cases people are vaping e cigs as an alternative to smoking cigarettes. Is inhaling vaporized nicotine healthy? I doubt anyone would make that claim. Is it healthier than smoking cigarettes? Is it ok if I say I think it more than likely is?
Your first post in the thread stated "I dont understand why anyone thinks e-cigs are safe." Can you perhaps understand why someone would think e cigs are safer than actual cigarettes, regardless of what studies currently exist?
Anyway, so I was looking all around for a good price on an Ego C twist and most of the starter kits were like $80. So looking further I found some Chinese place that had then for 1/2 the price. Yeah, I will have to wait a few weeks to get my shit, but here is what I got....
Not bad for $62.... Why pay some middleman twice what the damn thing is worth?
Yes, I understand very well why humans would make that connection. We act on gut feelings, we don't investigate anything fully before making a decision. When was the last time anyone checked a declaration on a consumer product thoroughly before buying it? Hair shampoo, pharmaceuticals, milk, fast food, anything? We do what we think is best, trust is important to us, not necessarily what is best or actually worthy of trust. That is what marketing people live of. This is what the e-cig business thrive on as well. It's human nature, sadly. It's the same mechanics that makes some think they're not abusers if they f.inst. swallow pills, but the very same equimolar substance injected is another story. Extrapolate to religion and any other life choice of importance with which we as humans give very little real thought on average. To the average Joe, E-cigs feels cleaner, safer, for no good reason. We commit equivocation fallacies en masse by simply assuming they're safer on the basis of previous lay mans experience and even some scientific. We know tar is bad, sure. But not knowing what we gain instead is potentially much more harmful - interactions, unknown effects. The effects of e-cigs and the juice in particular needs to be investigated on a scientific, biochemical level and it needs to be investigated over time - just like smoking and any other carcinogen. At least if one has the public health in mind.
TLDR; It's a logical fallacy to assume e-cigs are safer than cigarettes.
Speaking of vaping, quit being a vapid cunt. We get it.
Look, I have been trying to quit smoking for the past 10 yrs. Fuck who am I kidding, for the last 15 yrs. And each time with a relapse into full blown smoking. I have been doing this since I was 15, thats 25 yrs of smoking, give or take the years I have quit. You see, not all people can just up and quit. And this method, I have been clean for almost a month, and Im not craving smokes anymore. I have tried other methods, trust me. You think I was born yesterday and you are somehow educating me in here?
So if this is what it takes, this is what I will do. Im not stupid, I know vaping isnt 100% safe. But if its just 10% more safe than smoking sigs, I will do it, because its better than the alternative. And from what I gather, from all the crap I read, all the youtube videos of doctors saying its safe, for now, this leads me to believe that it is in fact safer. And If I die in the future because of vaping, oh well I would of died anyway from smoking anyway. You see where im coming from?
Not to mention that its cheaper. So even if it is a 1:1 tradeoff (which I can almost assuredly say its not) its still cheaper than smoking. So I still win.
Last edited by mkopec; 04-25-2013 at 09:15 PM.
Can I ask you if you think the risk of relapse is less if you do not quit smoking entirely when switching to another product but instead make a gradual transition for instance? Do you think it's more realistic to make a gradual transition compared to a fast switch?
Your reasoning with regards to health and numbers are not en par with reality. It takes roughly a number of years smoke free equal to your smoking years for your health risks to be comparable to that of a non smoker. But that doesn't really say anything about quality of life. Your quality of life and health will improve dramatically once you get rid of cigarettes. It's not too late to quit, but it's about time - don't postpone it if you want to see your grand children grow up at least
Last edited by Izo; 04-25-2013 at 09:31 PM.
While nicotine is a poisonous substance, alcohol can kill you in a similar way because it too is a poisonous substance. Nicotine (as far as we know), does not cause cancer, and won't kill you in the very low doses we use it at. Do NOT confuse "nicotine" with the hundreds of damaging substances and by-products contained in the traditional delivery system of a normal cigarette.
Why is your opinion biased? Do you work for Johnson & Johnson?If you really cared about your health or wanted to quit you'd explore other options. That's my biased opinion anyway.
Personally, I wonder what the world would have been like if traditional cigarettes never existed and e-cigs were the only option. Would there be the same uptake? what would have the long term effects have been? how would culture have changed?
The only potential danger I see with ecigs is the solution being unregulated, so technically there could be anything in there. But I'm having a hard time wondering why they'd bother to add anything else to the solution, though I guess there's always accidental contamination. But the odds seem pretty low, compared to just how unhealthy we already know cigarettes are. It would have to be some really crazy horrible contaminant to make it worse for you than regular smoking already is.
Anyway I'm definitely ordering one in the next week or two. I'm not a heavy chronic smoker, but I enjoy a pack or two a month and e-cigs seem like a healthier and more economic way to take a break from my day and get my nicotine fix.
Last edited by Azrayne; 04-26-2013 at 01:10 AM.
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
That might be true for the Chinese juice, and I would personally not trust it. But most of the US stuff is handcrafted and awesome flavors if you go to the right places. Also I have been watching some videos on how to mix your own juice. Its not difficult and this is where it suppossedly gets really economical. Also you can start mixing some off the wall flavors together to see what you can make that tastes good.
Im gonna update the OP with some links....
You're asserting a use without backing it up or linking. How can I possibly argue with you then? Anecdotal evidence or common sense does not cary much weight. You're not making a case by using bold letters either. Please try harder
You're making an equivocation fallacy - alcohol and nicotine are very different substances, have different metabolism, effective dosage and receptors. I'm not conflating nicotine with anything. While nicotine is both toxic and causes cancer in human cells, read more here, it is the dependence forming that has my interest. The means to the uptake is - what a given device adds beyond nicotine - is interesting. E-cigs are not fully explored as of now. Claiming they are more or less healthy or damaging without sufficient data is asinine.
I'm biased on the side of causation because I'm well versed in field of health via academia and work, suffice to say.
Your thoughts on smoking are interesting. There are other means of tobacco use that are worrying as well, chewing it in various forms for instance. I'm at the ICU, I'll give it some thought
You're making and equivocation fallacy in your ranking and risk assessment - you must compare to placebo to correct for it. They, the reasons, do not carry equal weight and we don't know what new factors are being brought to the equation, especially with regards to long term effects. Again, common sense and anecdotal evidence make a very poor basis for anything.
Finally, efficacy as a smoking cessation tool, risk assessment and nicotine cessation efficacy are separate issues that seem to be conflated a lot by the general public, an in this thread. It's important to know and see the difference
What odds? You're fractally wrong here, you have no data, and you don't know the dosage. You're doing what we all do in the supermarket, you're making a call without checking data thoroughly - gut feelings. That's not really a solid method for any decision making. You might as well roll a die. People used to think hookahs were safe. We know better now.
You don't have any data or long term studies. How can you make a serious call here? Simply because one does not have the imagination or knowledge of what causes disease does not mean it cannot be harmful. Combine with unregulated market, money talks bs walks, China and other fantastic places of origin. Google Thalidomide and pregnancy for an example of an unforeseen effect that common sense and gut feelings did nothing for.
We've been over this before. What seems healthier is not always so. You seem to be in denial about this, yet you're very clear on wanting an addictive substance, nicotine, for recreational usage. We're thus not talking smoking or cessation. You're moving the wrong way in anticipation of abuse. That's not helping you to stay clean
Last edited by Izo; 04-27-2013 at 01:56 AM. Reason: iPad sucks
Why have you constantly, and consistently dodged both the reason for your interest in the thread (other than the implied "you know more than us because you have a wiki page linked") and nit picking at differences between word usage such as "healthy vs. slightly healthier" and "cessation vs. it might help me quit, while not fucking me up at the same rate."
You'll notice I'm not using big words here, you'll even notice I'm not linking a wiki page -- I just don't have a thesaurus handy at the moment (wait, I'm on the internet, wut?). There's two reasons, the first of which is because I'm not a doctor, or a researcher, I'm just a smoker, the target audience if you will, the willing victim. The second of which is because there just isn't enough study done on vaping at the moment, and I've got to wonder why that is. I'd assume that it's mostly corporate, a little bit government and a shit load of paranoia if a study gets done finds it's good to go then 10 years later all vapers get super powers and the world ends in spectacular fashion.
I also wonder if the study is not being done because of professional smart people (read: doctors like yourself) that refuse to believe that it is possible for vaping to be safer than smoking, both for the general public and for the user. I'm thinking you'd rather just have another axe to grind and another infallible statement to mock us from on high.
Last edited by Sabbat; 04-27-2013 at 03:19 AM.
He's not a doctor, he's a douchebag. But they both start with D, so you can see how he was confused.
I've first hand seen my bosses and my girlfriend quit with vaporizers after years of smoking and nothing else working. While they're probably still dangerous they're not as dangerous and since they only release vapor and no smoke (nothing burns) they're definitely safer for me to be around. I think they're great. I just bought my mom one the other day and I'm hoping she has success with it too.
What can be proven is that e-cigs are a lot less harmful than real cigs and for a lot of people, like my girlfriend, nothing else has worked.
All the proof I need is seeing people who smoked a ton of cigarettes and tried the gum, the patch, cold turkey and everything else without success quit via e-cig.
Last edited by Gaige; 04-27-2013 at 05:07 PM.
I'll have you all know that Izo is the finest arm chair doctor on all of the rerolled forums. Respect people.
I don't see how being cautious with your health is nitpicking. Ask yourself if vaping is safer than a regular inhaler. It's an equally valid dichotomy as the one you set with cigarettes vs e-cigs. We know what's in a regular inhaler. We don't for the vapor. The claim that a vapor is easier to quit on is anecdotal for now, and does not translate to every user and their progression towards zero nicotine abuse. It's easy to understand the appeal the e-cig has, we've been over that. That doesn't translate to e-cigs being safe or effective - the picture is larger than simply switching. We both want the data, solid 2x blinded RCT en masse, that's no secret and we can both have a view on this until we do.
I don't think it's fair you criticize me for trying to be precise, while also communicating a complex problem. All I asked was you backed up your claims and provide a little something to work with - as I try to do as well
I don't know that there aren't enough study being done. The article posted earlier was ok, albeit many more are needed to have a solid footing. I don't think it's a conspiracy, as you seem to imply. Nicotine is a drug, toxic and carcinogenic, dosage dependent. I don't think it's strange to question a new method of uptake. I also don't know if it's where we should focus all our resources, when we have plenty of alternatives, most are thoroughly tested. Research is expensive, and i know very well of the difficulty in getting funding for research. Not to belittle the vapors, but there are plenty of other mysteries and more pressing research that needs to be done. Regardless, research is being done - there are several studies linked on www.pubmed.org, some looks interesting
I don't think I'm mocking anyone by arguing for caution when dealing with health. From my perspecive it has nothing to do with refusing to believe anything, quite the contrary. My life revolves around trying to undertand the human body and what affects it. I assure you this is no simple task, nor do I claim to have the single best answer. I would hope we are on the same side in this matter
I'm definitely addicted to the 'action' of smoking, as well as the nicotine. I started using ecigs in 2011, and unfortunately/happily turned it into a hobby.
I've got a number of different ecigs (ego, evic, lavatube, box mod, and 2 mechanicals), and I've been mixing my own liquid for about 6 months now. Quality PG/VG, with nicotine and ~15% flavoring (more info below) - I definitely feel a lot better in the mornings. I can really only compare it to brewing your own beer. Sure, it's not as good as eating carrots and apples, but it's fun and you can take some pride in it.
When I smoked cigarettes I used to wake up with all kinds of shit in my chest, and generally felt like crap. That doesn't happen anymore, no matter how much I vape. I tried an analog cigarette last year, and I can say with confidence I won't be going back. Also, I started with 36mg of nic, and I'm down to 8mg (eventually going to 4mg, and eventually 0mg).
DIY is extremely simple, and it's nowhere near the commitment you need for DIY beer, for example. Pay retail for a little bit so you can get a feel for what's out there, but once you're ready to take it seriously do some research on doing it yourself. I get my PG/VG premixed with nic from http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-suppl...ine-bases.html and my flavors from http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/...l-flavors.aspx. http://www.mtbakervapor.com/electron...arette-flavors is another option if you want more 'complex' flavorings without the hassle of blending the ratios yourself - Just add PG/VG/Nic, and use ~1 drop of flavor per ml.
Health concerns are a non-issue for me. My body has already told me it's not as actively harmful as smoking cigarettes, but long-term affects are still unknown of course (and I'll readily admit that not vaping is healthier than vaping).
If you've got non-medical questions I'll be happy to answer them. I read quite a bit on the best kits for the money, and I've got a few formulas for mixing good DIY liquids.
Thanks for the links man, Ill update the OP with them.
Thanks man, but you don't have to cite me.
I wanted to update and mention there are a couple of liquids out there that are the 'holy grail' for vapers, and a couple up-and-coming suppliers doing great things.
For suppliers, I really like what I see from alice in vapeland (https://aliceinvapeland.com/). They run on a limited cycle, and only take a specific number of orders per week - After that they close their doors. The packaging is fantastic, reminiscent of a collector's edition box for video games.
Bobas Bounty (http://www.avejuice.com/BobasBounty) is a unique tobacco-like vape, with caramel, cherry, menthol, etc. This one's a love it or hate it flavor, but this is another vendor that's only open a few hours a day/week depending on demand.
Radiator Pluid (http://www.310vapers.com/radiator-pluid.html) is an absinthe/citrus/secret of the ooze type flavor (because of its rich green color and viscosity). You've really got to be dedicated to get your hands on this, it only goes on sale a couple times a month. Murdock does some of his own extracts for the flavors, but he also gets some extracts from the flavor apprentice (referenced in my previous post). He's also got some newer blends out - 710, and Maha Ras (all out of stock as if 4/28/13).
I'm not affiliated with anyone I've listed, they're just vendors/individuals that I've had some experience with and they stick out in my head as quality suppliers. I wanted to bring this up because there's a whole underground of people that take this shit seriously, and are dedicated to putting out some quality products.
Im more pissed that the quality mechanical mods and liquids are hard to come by. Everything is sold out or you have to do a F5 war. Don't even get me started on the fucking jackasses that buy them just to up sell them on auctions on facebook.
So I went with a Provari and a Sigelei #20 mod for rebuildables.
I think it is going to be hard to ever get any real research done on the benefits of ecigs vs regular cigarettes. The only people who would ever want to do research that would potentially show the benefits are going to be the producers/users of ecigs. The true health nuts are going to avoid calling one "better" than the other because doing so would seem to be a type of endorsement. I think it is like diet sodas versus regular ones. While the diet sodas certainly are never going to qualify as health food, they also lack all of the sugar , calories, and carbs of a regular soda. So if you are the type of person that is going to drink a 2 litre a day regardless, yeah, the diet soda is going to get you a lot less diabetes and fat-assedness. But god forbid you drink diet sodas because of the artificial sweeteners and the blood sugar responses and yadda yadda yadda.
The question wasn't "are diet sodas health foods," the question was "are diet sodas going to make me less disgusting than normal sodas?" Same thing goes for ecigs.
Yeah, no shit, people aren't smoking them to train for the Olympics, but are they at least a better alternative to fucking marlboros? Well, probably. But the types of orgs that do those sorts of peer-reviewed studies aren't going to risk making an accidental "endorsement" either way.
This is all still underground as far as use is concerned. But the more popular this becomes what will happen ultimately , IMO, is either the big tobacco gets in on it and starts sellng their own ecigs and juice, or through lobbying and flexing their muscles they have the whole thing shut down. Lets get real here, tobacco is still a multi billion dollar industry. Tens of billions worldwide. They are not just going to sit and let this take over.
This has been around for years but I have not even thought of it until I saw that blue commercial on TV which got me to think and finally try one.
Blu was actually bought by Lorillard last year*, so big tobacco is definitely taking notice.
It might have also been mentioned in this thread, but regulations are incoming for sure. I imagine it might just be a language change from 'tobacco products' to 'nicotine products', which makes sense to me. Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin both have other uses in the food and drug industry, and the flavor extracts are used in baking. The only thing they can reasonably control/regulate is the nicotine IMO. Even then, you still have the option of buying/making zero-nic liquids.
Might be time to stock up on some concentrated blank nic juice then.
While they are obviously better than regular cigarettes, e-cigarettes are still annoying. Some asshole was using one on the train next to me today and kept blowing huge clouds of vapor on everyone. They still have a smell and I don't want to breathe in whatever shit they put in there. I hope they get banned indoors soon.
suck it up fgt/
I think e-cigs are a good thing for people who are trying to quit (I know a few people who are using them for that purpose) - I just don't think they suddenly make "smoking" in enclosed areas acceptable. Some of them produce a very small amount of vapor, but the guy on the train was blowing out about as much as you'd get from a regular cigarette. I've never seen one like that before.
Last edited by Desidero; 05-01-2013 at 02:28 AM.
Most people who smoke are scumbags. I feel that their e-cig scumming should be relegated to the outdoors as well.
Originally Posted by supertouch
for those who asked:
i haven't sucked her penis but i have stroked it. it sounds odd but i don't view it as a masculine organ on her.
I ended up buying a Vamo variable power vaporizer and a 6 ml tank on Monday from a local shop up here in the Cities. The Vamo is on the way cheaper side of things as far as the variable power supplies go, but this shop had the option of selling me on a more feature rich option that was twice the price and they claimed the vaping experience was similar.
Anyway, I'm loving the experience so far. I tried e cigs a few years ago either before tanks even existed or maybe just weren't popular. The small cigarette like batteries didn't duplicate the smoking experience well enough and I thought direct dripping into a nicer e cig was just such a hassle. This tank setup takes care of all of that. Really nice.
You dudes making suggestions, am I going to get a much better experience from the more expensive variable power sources or once you jump to that level is just the features that are causing the crazy price increases? Cost isn't a huge deal to me but I'm all about getting as much vapor as possible.
I'm assuming they're talking about the evic (http://www.joyetech.com/product/eVic.php). I don't think you'll notice much difference in the performance, but the evic definitely has more bells and whistles. It counts how many puffs you take, you can upgrade the software via usb, you can set puff limiters if you only want to take x# puffs in one day, etc etc.
I like mine because I'm a gadget guy, but I primarily use a telescopic/mechanical ecig so I can swap out the batteries/size depending on where I'm going.
The only thing that would be nice IMo is a mod that showed you the resistance of your coils. But even then you dont really need it because you can just adjust the voltage untill you are satisfied with your vape.
Oh yea, the evic shows you that also. I think it's good to know so you don't put 5v of power to a 1.5ohm cartomizer and burn it out. I also use it as an ohm meter in a pinch when I'm recoiling a rebuildable atomizer =)
Well I guess the vamo can do this as well. So its all good. There is no way that a $150+mod would be so much better price vs performance wise. The vamos can be had from China for $40.
It's this guy:
Anyway the tank has made the whole thing great. Glad I went for it.
Last edited by Slaythe; 05-02-2013 at 02:59 AM.
Yeah I have some of those coming in the mail. I got the 3.5ml version. They seem nice without the wicks, although they are basically throw away items unless you can rebuild them somehow.
Here is the ones I got...
Im also looking at the Kanger pro tank, thos one seems like a better solution because you can rebuild them. But they seem to be sold out everywhere I look.
Yeah you have to replace the cartomizer every couple of weeks but they are only like 3 bucks.
So this past friday I got 2 different juices from vaporbomb. One was Peppermint and the other was Chocolate mint. They also sent me a trial vial of Caramel Candy. Thry are all 50/50 mix with 18mg nic.
I love the Peppermint. Great throat hit and it tastes like that mint candy you get from the restaurants after dinner. Definitely like this.
The Chocolate mint is OK, do not like it as much as the Peppermint. I taste more chocolate than mint but the overall flavor is muted and not as good on the throat hit.
The Caramel Candy is good as well. It tastes awesome, but hardly no throat hit. But that being said, I still like this one. I will definitely be trying some more of the vanilla flavors in the future.
How's the quitting part going, mkopec? Are you enjoying playing alchemist so far?
Latest news I read on the subject today, was that my national CDC (Europe) reports increased nicotine poisoning incidences in children and adults. Specifically children finding e-cig juice bottles with enticing and colorful pictures of strawberry etc. and adults aspirating the juice due to malfunctioning e-cigs or misapplication in general. The main concern being even small doses of nicotine is lethal, naturally.
Have you or those around you had any accidents so far, mkopec?
Last edited by Izo; 05-06-2013 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Ipad
My girlfriend hasn't used her e-cig for the past three days and says she has no desire to either. She isn't even taking it to work with her. So for her, vaping definitely paved the way for her quitting completely. She had smoked for 9 straight years and the gum, patch, cold turkey etc never worked for her. I don't think she was ever able to quit for more than like 24 hours lol. Hopefully she doesn't have any desire to go back to her e-cig, but she has told me that she absolutely has no desire for an actual cigarette.
Last edited by Gaige; 05-06-2013 at 07:33 PM.
Good for her - and you as a 2nd hand smoker
Get back to us with 1 year cessation status - I hope she stays clean.
Last edited by Izo; 05-06-2013 at 08:08 PM. Reason: iPad
I'm not a second hand smoker. She quit as soon as we started dating, I'm the one who bought her the e-cig.
I'm curious, will you keep her around if she has relapses, e-cig and/or cigarettes? What about the other way around - Do you think she will stick with you after going through this or are you the devil whom cost her the 'nicotine friend'? Anyway, good luck with your project
Well since no one has proved e-cig vapor is harmful, I'm completely fine with that.
No, I'd dump her if she smoked actual cigarettes. I have a zero tolerance policy for it. She doesn't wanna smoke around her kids anyway, so she is thankful that I pushed her in the right direction since she lacked the willpower on her own to quit. She also was appreciative that I got her the e-cig to help her quit instead of just expecting her to do it cold turkey.
Thank you for elaborating on the other questions
So it's more about you and your policy rather than her and her children?
Did she use the nicotine vapor in front of her kids then?
Why the dichotomy - e-cig and cold turkey? There are numerous personal options for nicotine uptake such as sprays, melters, inhalers, patches etc. None of them harm or affect those around the user.
I hope she can stay clean and you toss away the nicotine bottles with the same vigor you gave it to her. If one of her kids find one and drink it I'd not want to be in your shoes. Just a thought
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