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Thread: RIP(or is it RIH?) Hugo Chavez

  1. #1
    The King of Beers Araxen's Avatar
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    RIP(or is it RIH?) Hugo Chavez

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-21679053

    Dead at 58 years old due to Cancer.

  2. #2
    infraction teflon Merkins4Brazil's Avatar
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    like a boss.


    hugoboss-logo.png



    also INB4 Polonium Poisoning.
    Last edited by Merkins4Brazil; 03-06-2013 at 03:22 AM.

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    I dont wish cancer on anyone, but I wont be shedding any tears for this pos either.

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    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Hugo nationalized his country's oil resources, wrested them from foreign corporations despite repeated threats of invasion or assassination, and then spread the wealth amongst his people by building schools, hospitals.

    When everything is said and done, Hugo Chavez will remembered as one of the greatest men of the past 100 years. US couldnt villify him enough along with others who refused to bend over and let American corporations ransack their resources: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Evo Morales and of course our Bolivarian hero: Hugo Chavez.

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    Chip off the old block! aychamo_aycono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Hugo nationalized his country's oil resources, wrested them from foreign corporations despite repeated threats of invasion or assassination, and then spread the wealth amongst his people by building schools, hospitals.

    When everything is said and done, Hugo Chavez will remembered as one of the greatest men of the past 100 years. US couldnt villify him enough along with others who refused to bend over and let American corporations ransack their resources: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Evo Morales and of course our Bolivarian hero: Hugo Chavez.
    If you're being serious then you are truly a fucking retard. I'm sure Mikhail and Lithose will be by to suck your cock later. Seriously. Some of you are just fucking idiots.

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    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aychamo_aycono View Post
    If you're being serious then you are truly a fucking retard. I'm sure Mikhail and Lithose will be by to suck your cock later. Seriously. Some of you are just fucking idiots.
    Ahmadinejad didn't give it away? Seriously?

    This guy will not be remembered for being great simply because he just wasn't particularly effective. A good socialist dictator can actually lead a country in certain situations to relatively high economic growth. Sometimes it that's just what it takes to get shit done. Chavez just did not get shit done.

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    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Ahmadinejad was only mentioned because of his steadfast refusal to let US in to "helpfully" pump their oil for them like the West always offers, not for anything else.

    There's a reason why US has a hard-on for Iran and it has little to do with nuclear weapons. If that actually mattered, they'd be doing backflips trying to figure out a solution to the NK problem who actually has them, tests them and hates their next door neighbors, both long standing US allies. The last time it happened, they had Mossadegh ousted and thrown in jail.

    Shortly after the Shah's return, Mosaddegh was tried for treason by the Shah's military court. On 19 December 1953, defending himself against the treason charge, he said:
    “Yes, my sin — my greater sin and even my greatest sin is that I nationalized Iran's oil industry and discarded the system of political and economic exploitation by the world's greatest empire. This at the cost to myself, my family; and at the risk of losing my life, my honor and my property. With God's blessing and the will of the people, I fought this savage and dreadful system of international espionage and colonialism .... I am well aware that my fate must serve as an example in the future throughout the Middle East in breaking the chains of slavery and servitude to colonial interests.[60]”

    On 21 December 1953, he was sentenced to death but his sentence was later commuted to three years' solitary confinement in a military prison. He was kept under house arrest at his Ahmadabad residence, until his death, on 5 March 1967
    Last edited by Araysar; 03-06-2013 at 04:16 AM.

  8. #8
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    The media tells me that he was evil and I have no idea why.

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    Grumpy Paladin Zhaun's Avatar
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    He helped heat peoples homes here (in New England), including my great godmother's house. *shrug* I think it was mostly to give Bush II the finger, but whatever.

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    Spittin mad rhymes Troll's Avatar
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    Complex person. Certainly not one of "the greatest of the past 100 years," but certainly not the villain he's been portrayed as, either.

    Cancer sucks, and I hope for the day it no longer plagues any of my fellow primates. Even the ones who might disagree with me politcally.

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    Registered User TheBeagle's Avatar
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    As someone who's career is dependent on doing their due diligence and checking their sources, I have to admit I really don't know much about old Hugo beyond what the media has told me so i will defer judgement because of my own ignorance.

    Its funny though that people that most vociferously decry the media are also the same people that are most likely to call old Hugo a piece of shit based solely on what they heard/read....from the media.

    God damn you people are dumb. It's embarrassing.

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    I'm in the camp of not really being sure what Hugo did that was so terrible. I do know that I was in Caracas before he took over and the place was a fucking disaster. The poverty level was insane, their currency was bordering on worthlessness, and crime was out of control. They still obviously have more than their share of these problems but things seem to have improved greatly since he took over. Of course, I'm sure finding ridiculous amounts of oil helped that cause and maybe he could have done better but the situation he came into probably called for a socialist.

  13. #13
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    The media tells me that he was evil and I have no idea why.
    Think it has to due with him nationalizing(aka stealing) oil companies along with being a quasidictator.
    He helped heat peoples homes here (in New England), including my great godmother's house. *shrug* I think it was mostly to give Bush II the finger, but whatever.
    And that should tell you everything you need to know about the man. He didnt really give two shits about whether or not people in the eastern US where paying high rates for heating oil, he cared about his image and what would further his goals.

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    Don't Infract Me Bro Burnesto's Avatar
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    I believe Obtenor posted about getting the shit beat out of him for protesting against Chavez. I'm sure he'll elaborate more once he sees the thread.

    It seems that things were good for you there as long as you weren't against him.

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    infraction teflon Merkins4Brazil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnesto View Post
    I believe Obtenor posted about getting the shit beat out of him for protesting against Chavez. I'm sure he'll elaborate more once he sees the thread.

    It seems that things were good for you there as long as you weren't against him.
    If you walked around in the sticks in Texas post 911 protesting Bush, you would probably get your ass handed to you .... just sayin', nationalism makes mouth breathers into political thugs.

    see Fox News

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    Like a bull's walt... Nostrovia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkins4Brazil View Post
    If you walked around in the sticks in Texas post 911 protesting Bush, you would probably get your ass handed to you .... just sayin', nationalism makes mouth breathers into political thugs.

    see Fox News
    Terrorist organization - A political movement that uses terror as a weapon to achieve its goals.

    So...FOX News, CNN, MSNBC, etc etc.
    Wolf Blitzer, terrorist.
    Glen Beck, terrorist.
    Piers Morgan, terrorist.
    Nancy Grace, TERRORIST!!
    Anderson Cooper, terrorist.
    Bill O' Reilly, terrorist.

    If you do not read the newspaper you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed. - Mark Twain
    Still applies with the News media today.
    "Sorry I tried to spit roast your mom."


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    Chavez was not a hero or a democratic person, but the media gives you a much worse image than reality

    he is so hated because his political and economic acts went against USA's interests, nothing more. If he had not nationalized the natural resources industry he would have been just another ally

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    Registered User Squire's Avatar
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    I'll wait until I've seen the inevitable movie to decide if he was good or evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    Think it has to due with him nationalizing(aka stealing) oil companies along with being a quasidictator.

    And that should tell you everything you need to know about the man. He didnt really give two shits about whether or not people in the eastern US where paying high rates for heating oil, he cared about his image and what would further his goals.
    So... basically we hated him because Shell, BP and Exxon told the media to make us hate him.

    I dunno, he never nationalized Venezuelan beauty queens so I got no beef.

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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    Wow man. This thread.

    The only thing I wonder is how long he's been dead. I mean whatever. They should mummify him and parade him once a year. Like anyone in the states -really- gives a shit.

    Transfer of power probably worked better for those guys back when they did that. It's been a while now of "he's in cuba recovering from treatment, but this is what he said to do. Honest".

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    Live fast, die old. Mire's Avatar
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  22. #22
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Yeah, nationalizing the oil industry seems like the real issue here, and hardly seems "evil". Reading stuff about him makes it sound like he did a lot for the country. Whatever, it just seems indicative of our modern age. Here is this big bad guy, or so we are told, and 9 out of 10 people couldn't even tell you why beyond some vague bullshit. The media tells us he is the guy wearing the black cowboy hat, so he is. And you have Americans celebrating his death who couldn't tell you a damn thing about him.

  23. #23
    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    Think it has to due with him nationalizing(aka stealing) oil companies along with being a quasidictator.
    Take back what was stolen from you and they call you a thief. Give it back to your people as they rightfully deserve and they call you a "quasidictator"

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    And that should tell you everything you need to know about the man. He didnt really give two shits about whether or not people in the eastern US where paying high rates for heating oil, he cared about his image and what would further his goals.
    Send free oil to help people stay warm and they call you a narcissist.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    The media tells me that he was evil and I have no idea why.
    You listen to the wrong media. The BBC basically gave him complete coverage all night last night (morning there), and treated him like a saint.

    The only thing I felt ashamed of was some fucker from the Bush administration basically saying "Yeah, no one's missing that piece of shit"

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    Registered User Szlia's Avatar
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    I am curious to have Obtenor's insight as to what will come next.

  26. #26
    Boooya ohkcrlho's Avatar
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    at least he was a not a "yes man" of the USA,EU.
    not a democratic ruler,also not the devil that many say he is.
    but hey, there are those "democratic" leaders like Bush,Blair,Putin (yes this one is not democratic at all )who did more harm to the World than Chávez and i wanna see how they going to be remembered
    A war is coming, I've seen it in my dreams. Fires sweeping over the Earth, bodies in the streets, cities turned to dust... retaliation.

    Hollywood is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything you love is dead.

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    He was certainly controversial. Bad?

    I dunno. I mean some will see nationalizing the oil industry as Araysar has, taking back what was stolen from them in the first place, and that's a legitimate point of view.

    Others will see the same event the way this article does

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/0...y-of-hugo.html

    Spoiler: 
    A former paratrooper, Mr. Chávez had a radical vision for “21st Century Socialism,” which was never fully explained. His skillful rhetoric, which filled supporters with utopian dreams, was used to justify the methodical destruction of Venezuela’s democratic institutions and the free market.

    Shortly after coming to office, he rewrote the constitution to his liking and aggressively set out to rig elections and stifle adversaries in the legislative branch and the courts. Unable to brook criticism, he turned his fire on the independent news media, eventually silencing most voices of opposition by bully tactics and economic intimidation.

    His Bolivarian regime rewarded supporters and punished opponents, giving rise to enormous corruption and the creation of a new class of greedy oligarchs with political connections. Unfortunately for Venezuela and for all his political skills, the president was both an incompetent executive and a worse economist.

    In an energy-rich country that once knew no blackouts, electrical shortages are frequent, the result of Mr. Chávez’s plundering of the country’s public oil company. In a country that once enjoyed a thriving free market, prices are controlled and food items often scarce.

    In recent weeks, while Mr. Chávez was hospitalized, Venezuela was once again forced to devalue its currency, this time by one-third. This was the inevitable outcome of a series of disastrous economic decisions that included nationalizing the telephone company and other utilities, which scared off foreign investors and spurred capital flight.

    For Venezuelans, the worst aspect of the Chávez years was the soaring crime rate. Venezuela has become one of the most violent countries in the world, with nearly 20,000 murders recorded in 2011 and a homicide rate that some experts say is four times greater than in the last year before Mr. Chávez took power.

    On the international front, Mr. Chávez eagerly accepted Fidel Castro as his mentor, providing Cuba with cut-rate oil and making common cause with Iran and other rogue regimes. His departure leaves the anti-American front leaderless on a hemispheric level and could eventually threaten the subsidy that Cuba relies on to keep its economy barely functioning.

    As a result of all this, Venezuela today is a polarized society divided between the intolerant supporters of Mr. Chávez’s Bolivarian Revolution and a democratic opposition that, against all odds, has waged a courageous fight for a democratic alternative.

  28. #28
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Even in that article they say things like he "rigged elections". Based on what? The fact that he won? And he somehow got jimmy Carter in his pocket? That article is basically an opinion piece. The only verifiable fact I see there is the rising crime rate in Venezuela.

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    Boooya ohkcrlho's Avatar
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    In an energy-rich country that once knew no blackouts, electrical shortages are frequent
    oh....i know another country with the same problem...Angola

    and yes,nationalizing the oil company was the best thing to do for Venezuela.
    i know many oil companies get pissed with that kind of move but fuck them.
    A war is coming, I've seen it in my dreams. Fires sweeping over the Earth, bodies in the streets, cities turned to dust... retaliation.

    Hollywood is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything you love is dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    That article is basically an opinion piece.
    Agreed. That's exactly why I posted it. To show that there are two takes on the issue. I don't really know which one I come down on, because I do not and have not lived in Venezuela.

    I will say that, as far as I can ascertain, Venezuela is not better off today than it was in 1999, but I can say the same thing for the United States as well, so I'm not sure what that really implies.

    Jesus Christ I can't type this morning what the fuck. That sentence was mangled nonsense for a second sorry.

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    I think it bothers some people that democracy could result in a leader like Chavez. Because in the us vs them mindset, us has democracy and they are a bunch of dictators. It's the same reason people struggle so mightily with the fact that Russia elected Putin or that Iran elected Ahmadinajad(i know just butchered that), it hurts their heads. So we always get the stories of gangs of thugs stuffing balot boxes etc etc.

    That said Chavez, while not the villian he is often made out to be, was not really a great leader and his poor handling of his economy will doom his legacy.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Yeah, nationalizing the oil industry seems like the real issue here, and hardly seems "evil". Reading stuff about him makes it sound like he did a lot for the country. Whatever, it just seems indicative of our modern age. Here is this big bad guy, or so we are told, and 9 out of 10 people couldn't even tell you why beyond some vague bullshit. The media tells us he is the guy wearing the black cowboy hat, so he is. And you have Americans celebrating his death who couldn't tell you a damn thing about him.
    He did a shit load of idiotic things. Maybe the animosity between him and the developed world was primarily about nationalizing oil resources, but he did a piss-poor job of running his country in almost every respect. With their massive resource wealth, why is the average Venezuelan no better off than Colombians, Ecuadorians, Peruvians, Brazilians and so on? Going by HDI figures for those countries, anyways.

    He suppressed the opposition in any way he could, fucked with the country's constitution so he could continue to run it, stocked government ministries and state owned corporations with cronies (hence why their oil exports have declined by half, the state oil company is a fucking disaster: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...88J1IW20120920), let corruption run rampant, continuously interfered with the country's judiciary and more or less brought it under his control, did pretty much the same thing to the media, and did a wonderful job pissing off many of his neighbors (one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_An...lomatic_crisis).

    Maybe he's not as bad as the media in the US portrayed him, but he certainly wasn't a good person or leader either. Venezuela should be far and away the wealthiest country in South America given it's resources. Instead it's pretty much middle of the pack. Meanwhile the countries that have embraced democracy and capitalism, Chile and Brazil and to a lesser extent Colombia and Peru, are rapidly developing.
    Last edited by Eomer; 03-06-2013 at 04:05 PM.

  33. #33
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Using the nation's oil revenue as his own personal piggy bank isn't something I would describe as a good thing.

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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    Don't fuck up the contrarian white knight argument with an actual look at the man or the repercussions of his leadership.

    HE WAS A HERO OF THE PEOPLE, I TELL YOU. HE POKED AMERICA IN THE EYE.

    Would the other guy have been worse for Argenteria? That is not only possible, but likely.

    Mummify his corpse and move on, imho.

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    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Even in that article they say things like he "rigged elections". Based on what? The fact that he won? And he somehow got jimmy Carter in his pocket? That article is basically an opinion piece. The only verifiable fact I see there is the rising crime rate in Venezuela.
    Since we are talking about rigged elections, why arent we talking about how the US/CIA tried to rig 3 elections in the row against him?

  36. #36
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Don't fuck up the contrarian white knight argument with an actual look at the man or the repercussions of his leadership.

    HE WAS A HERO OF THE PEOPLE, I TELL YOU. HE POKED AMERICA IN THE EYE.

    Would the other guy have been worse for Argenteria? That is not only possible, but likely.

    Mummify his corpse and move on, imho.
    You're right. I'm sorry.

  37. #37
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    nationalizing(aka stealing)
    Retarded.
    Greasemonkey script for ignoring people and ignoring posts that quote those people: http://pastebin.com/Y4Y6E1Sb


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    What sticks out most in my mind were his idiotic comments. I remember his UN address calling Bush a devil, quoting Chomsky and generally carrying on. Obama was a "clown" according to him. Some nonsense about the US spreading cancer to Latin America. Oh and something about capitalism being responsible for destroying life on Mars. Wasnt he also buddies with Ahmadinejad and Castro... and Sean Penn? I rest my case.

    As for the "man of the people" image, the guy was worth a couple of billion dollars supposedly.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    He did a shit load of idiotic things. Maybe the animosity between him and the developed world was primarily about nationalizing oil resources, but he did a piss-poor job of running his country in almost every respect. With their massive resource wealth, why is the average Venezuelan no better off than Colombians, Ecuadorians, Peruvians, Brazilians and so on? Going by HDI figures for those countries, anyways.
    He reduced poverty by double digit percentages, and considering where Venezuelans were in early to mid 1990s, he boosted them to a level of living they haven't seen in their lifetimes.



    He suppressed the opposition in any way he could,
    I would do it too when practically all your opposition is funded by the CIA and external intelligence agencies.

    fucked with the country's constitution so he could continue to run it
    Reforming the moribund constitution which allowed a highly concentrated oligarchy to entrench itself at the top was one of his campaign promises even before the first election

    , stocked government ministries and state owned corporations with cronies (hence why their oil exports have declined by half, the state oil company is a fucking disaster:
    I'd put friends in important positions to minimize betrayal as well. Should he have put total strangers when he is surrounded by enemies? Additionally, what proof do you have that this is the reason their petroleum exports "declined by half"?
    Last edited by Araysar; 03-06-2013 at 04:59 PM.

  40. #40
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Don't fuck up the contrarian white knight argument with an actual look at the man or the repercussions of his leadership.

    HE WAS A HERO OF THE PEOPLE, I TELL YOU. HE POKED AMERICA IN THE EYE.

    Would the other guy have been worse for Argenteria? That is not only possible, but likely.

    Mummify his corpse and move on, imho.
    Yeah you're right, Venezuela would have been way better off with another right-wing American puppet to leave the poor in the lurch.
    Greasemonkey script for ignoring people and ignoring posts that quote those people: http://pastebin.com/Y4Y6E1Sb


  41. #41
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashel View Post
    What sticks out most in my mind were his idiotic comments. I remember his UN address calling Bush a devil, quoting Chomsky and generally carrying on. Obama was a "clown" according to him.
    I'm still waiting waiting to hear the idiotic parts (and not the brilliant ones).
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashel View Post
    What sticks out most in my mind were his idiotic comments. I remember his UN address calling Bush a devil, quoting Chomsky and generally carrying on. Obama was a "clown" according to him. Some nonsense about the US spreading cancer to Latin America. Oh and something about capitalism being responsible for destroying life on Mars. Wasnt he also buddies with Ahmadinejad and Castro... and Sean Penn? I rest my case.

    As for the "man of the people" image, the guy was worth a couple of billion dollars supposedly.
    Oh you mean he quoted one of the most respected linguists and political scientists in the world who has been writing about US imperialism for decades? And the guy who has been trying to overthrow him for a decade, he called him a "devil"?

    wacky stuff!

    P.S. Ever actually read a Chomsky book?

  43. #43
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    As far as I know, that confrontational rhetorical stance taken by Chavez was a hallmark of the Soviet communist "revolution", no? It is arrogant and dismissive of other ideas, but a confrontational position certainly can be attractive to the uneducated poor and middle class.

  44. #44
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    Im not sure what confrontational position you are referring to.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    I'd put friends in important positions to minimize betrayal as well. Should he have put total strangers when he is surrounded by enemies? Additionally, what proof do you have that this is the reason their petroleum exports "declined by half"?
    This isn't some hardly known secret. PDVSA is a fucking disaster: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle4550316/

    PDVSA’s wealth has also been used to back multibillion-dollar loans from China and to buy arms from Russia. It supplies, almost single-handedly, Venezuela’s foreign exchange market. It is also a source of patronage: the number of employees, hired on the basis of their loyalty to the “Bolivarian Revolution,” has tripled since 2003 to more than 121,000.

    “[The Amuay disaster] is not a random occurrence. It is the consequence of PDVSA’s transformation from an efficient and effective company into a profoundly politicized institution,” says Diego Gonzalez, president of the Caracas-based Centre for Energy Orientation. It is “a reflection of what is happening in the rest of the country.”

    A decade ago, PDVSA was considered one of the best-run oil companies in the Americas. Today, inefficiency and incompetence have led to a string of accidents, causing 77 deaths before the Amuay explosion since 2003. The company’s annual report admits a lack of funds has hurt maintenance.

    “The only maintenance they have done is to paint things red,” says Francisco Luna, a PDVSA union leader. “They make everything look nice and pretty but underneath it is all rusted. They don’t replace parts until they break,” he said, describing worker conditions as “disastrous.”

    With fewer resources and attention dedicated to oil, it is no surprise that, according to BP, production has fallen from 3.1 million barrels per day to 2.7 million b/d in the past decade. Higher oil prices have masked that decline. When Mr. Chávez came to power, oil was less than $10 a barrel, now it is more than $100. Much of this windfall has also been spent on social projects, helping to reduce poverty from 44 per cent in 1998 to 27 per cent in 2011, according to government statistics.

    But investment has been scrimped on, and the cost to PDVSA’s operational ability has been huge. Last year there was even a moment when markets feared for PDVSA’s solvency; its bonds still yield a hefty 11 per cent.

    Indeed, Gustavo Coronel, a former board member, likens the company today to “a toothless tiger resting on its haunches before a huge slice of raw meat.” Venezuela might have the largest oil reserves in the world, some 300 billion barrels, according to BP’s statistical review. Yet these remain undeveloped because of “severe management, technical and financial constraints driven by the application of a rigid statist ideology for what should be a commercial enterprise.”
    Although Mr. Chavez has remained untarnished – his loyalists see him as innocent of the clientelism around him – he faced a particularly embarrassing incident in 2010 when the Aban Pearl offshore drilling rig sank just days after it was inaugurated. Mr. Coronel has shown that PDVSA was paying an intermediary $730,000 a day for the rig’s services, when they normally cost $358,000 a day. The intermediary turned out to be a shell company owned by Venezuelan businessmen identified by opponents as close to the government.

    “No matter where you look you see evident signs of waste and corruption,” says Mr. Coronel, who believes that transparency and accountability are at all time lows in PDVSA’s “black box.”
    And even now that he's dead, we're seeing a continuation of his complete disrespect for democracy and the constitution: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...n.html?cmp=rss

    Venezuela's constitution mandates an election be called within 30 days, but it is currently unclear when an election will be held.

    The constitution specifies that the speaker of the National Assembly, currently Diosdado Cabello, should assume the interim presidency if a president can't be sworn in. But Maduro — who will be the governing socialists' candidate in the upcoming election after being named Chavez's successor by the late president — is filling the post instead.

    "The lines are really kind of blurry right here," freelance reporter Andrew Rosati told CBC News from Caracas. He said constitutional discrepancies have been present ever since Chavez was unable to attend his inauguration ceremony Jan. 10.
    Maduro should not even be assuming the interim presidency, and an election should be held within the next 30 days. It'll be interesting to see if that happens. If not, the presidency will be completely illegitimate.

  46. #46
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Janos Kornai wrote in Force of Thought about his intellectual journey to becoming a communist party warrior. In it he described how he and his contemporaries in Hungary were seduced, in part, by the the confrontational rhetoric found in the works of Stalin and Marx in particular. It was only later when he was able to study the works of other authors like Adam Smith, among others, that he was able to critically assess the works he came to champion for a time and see the contradictions found in Communist Party ideology.

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    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    That article reeks of bukllshit.

    1. I cant find this Caracas-based "Center for Energy orientation" anywhere online. The onyl time its mentioned is when its quoted exactly the same way in some other articles.

    2. The articles itself says that production fell from 3.1 to 2.7 million BPD (which is only 10%, not 50% even if this article is accurate). On top of that, it also known that Chavez himself reduced production because he was a price hawk and wanted to reap higher oil revenues per barrel.

    3. And now its Chavez's fault that the constitution after his death isn't being followed?

    Man, there's just so much bullshit in these Chavez accusations. Some minor graft goes on and somehow its supposed to completely overshadow the fact that he dragged tens of millions of his own people out of poverty and gave them back the control of their resources instead of letting Phillips and Exxon keep that 60 year drilling deal where they paid Venezuela ONE PERCENT TAX on the tens of billions of dollars of oil that they were pumping out of Maracaibo.

  48. #48
    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar
    1. I cant find this Caracas-based "Center for Energy orientation" anywhere online. The onyl time its mentioned is when its quoted exactly the same way in some other articles.
    I didn't see much either in a quick search, but I highly doubt that the Globe and Mail (which is a left leaning paper in Canada) would make shit up out of thin air to try to make Chavez look bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar
    2. The articles itself says that production fell from 3.1 to 2.7 million BPD (which is only 10%, not 50% even if this article is accurate). On top of that, it also known that Chavez himself reduced production because he was a price hawk and wanted to reap higher oil revenues per barrel.
    I said exports. Not total production. Exports have declined by half because of a decline in overall production, and an increase in consumption due to heavily subsidizing the cost of gasoline, diesel and the like. Exports are important because that brings in foreign exchange with which a country can buy/trade with. Venezuela's economy has been damaged pretty badly by the decline in exports even while the price of oil sky rocketed under his watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar
    3. And now its Chavez's fault that the constitution after his death isn't being followed?
    He set the tone that if you don't like the constitution you can just ignore it or better yet, change it. And he also anointed Maduro as his chosen successor. Chavez did not leave a legacy of strong democratic institutions, and yes, he can be blamed for that.

    Here's another article (similar headline is coincidental): http://www.economist.com/blogs/ameri...s-oil-industry

    The sector’s decline began in 2003, following a strike by the employees and managers of Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), the state oil company, in protest against Mr Chávez’s leftist policies. When the conflict ended, the president had almost 20,000 workers sacked. Since then, PDVSA’s chairman, Rafael Ramírez, has steadily replaced them with loyal chavistas: he has made it an explicit company policy to employ only supporters of the president. He has also allowed Mr Chávez to use the company as a piggy bank for his “socialist revolution”: last year, PDVSA spent twice as much on off-budget government programmes as it did on taxes, royalties and dividends.

    With so little attention paid to the actual business of extracting oil, it is little wonder that PDVSA’s production has fallen from 3m barrels a day in 1999 to 2.4m today, according to OPEC. In the same period, its foreign debt has risen fivefold. Moreover, oil union leaders say PDVSA’s industrial-safety procedures have deteriorated sharply. The petroleum and mining ministry’s annual report shows that maintenance work is frequently postponed for lack of cash. Residents of the Amuay area have told reporters that the gas leak was apparent hours before the blast, though the government denies this.
    I'm sure the Economist is just making shit up too. Araysar, you sound every bit as ridiculous as those who try to portray him as some sort of evil dictator by defending his every action. He did some good for his people in standing up to the oil companies perhaps, but in many other respects he was an incredibly incompetent leader and left the country and it's institutions in shambles.
    Last edited by Eomer; 03-06-2013 at 05:31 PM.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    As far as I know, that confrontational rhetorical stance taken by Chavez was a hallmark of the Soviet communist "revolution", no?
    lolwut

    Are you saying Chavez was a bolshevik?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    It is arrogant and dismissive of other ideas, but a confrontational position certainly can be attractive to the uneducated poor and middle class.
    The socialist critque of capitalism would only be arrogant and dismissive if it weren't right. That correctness is what's attractive to the poor (who've been better educated than you by the realities of their daily lives).
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  50. #50
    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Simply making the comparison between Chavez's confrontational rhetoric with the rhetoric of the old school communists.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    Simply making the comparison between Chavez's confrontational rhetoric with the rhetoric of the old school communists.
    1. The Soviets were hardly communist (they weren't even socialists).
    2. The confrontational rhetoric has to do with the shared (not to mention justified) confrontation with the US.
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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Take up your objections with Janos Kornai.

  53. #53
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    Take up your objections with Janos Kornai.
    The only contradiction his works have with my beliefs is his adoption (like yours) of totally incorrect definitions of what socialism actually means. Moreover, my argument is parroting russian (actual) communists going back to directly after the bolsheviks took over. You cannot out-insider me on this.
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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    I don't even know what you're talking about. It certainly has nothing to do with what I posited earlier.

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    Registered User Merlin's Avatar
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    Someone really started a thread to mourn the death of a dictator?

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Someone really started a thread to mourn the death of a dictator?

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    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    They only become "dictators" and "terrorists" after they stop bending over for America.

    All swell guys in the beginning, all "dictators" and "terrorists" later.






  58. #58

  59. #59
    Cock Scientist Chris's Avatar
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    I read the coverage on BBC and on balance (obviously not perfect) he seems quite good.

  60. #60
    Live fast, die old. Mire's Avatar
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    The coup as it happened in 2002:


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    Boooya ohkcrlho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    i knew about this meetings but not reagan's words ahah
    i mean, i think we all know how moral he was.just ask the people of Nicaragua,Honduras
    A war is coming, I've seen it in my dreams. Fires sweeping over the Earth, bodies in the streets, cities turned to dust... retaliation.

    Hollywood is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything you love is dead.

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    Him Void's Avatar
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    You mean the meeting in 1985 before the Taliban even existed?

    Just because someone makes a picture of it on the internet doesn't mean it is true.

  63. #63
    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vvoid View Post
    You mean the meeting in 1985 before the Taliban even existed?

    Just because someone makes a picture of it on the internet doesn't mean it is true.
    Taliban existed since the late 1970s, they were already assisting the other Mujahadeen from Day 1 of the Soviet Afghan War. They might not have been known as the Taliban in 1985 (in the White House they were known as freedom fighters, mujahadeen, etc.) but its pretty much the same people, with the same goals and same ideology.
    Last edited by Araysar; 03-06-2013 at 07:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Someone really started a thread to mourn the death of a dictator?
    I would think even someone as dense as you would realize not everything is as black and white as your stupid fucking talking heads make it out to be while reading this thread.

  65. #65
    Registered User khalid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    but its pretty much the same people, with the same goals and same ideology.
    No, they aren't. Their members may have come from the Mujahadeen but plenty of Mujahadeen had nothing to do with the taliban and didn't have the same goals as them or their ideology.

    But hey, don't let truth get in the way of your funny picture.

  66. #66
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    I don't even know what you're talking about. It certainly has nothing to do with what I posited earlier.
    Well maybe you can explain what you mean by that Janos Kornai line then, because apparently it was too oblique for me.
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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Someone really started a thread to mourn the death of a dictator?
    The best dictators are the ones that win legitimate open and fair elections.
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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalid View Post
    No, they aren't. Their members may have come from the Mujahadeen but plenty of Mujahadeen had nothing to do with the taliban and didn't have the same goals as them or their ideology.

    But hey, don't let truth get in the way of your funny picture.
    Yeah Araysar, it's totally ok that we funded the best killers we could find because once The Ultimate Evi Of Communism was pushed out of Afghanistan, they started fighting each other.
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    infraction teflon Merkins4Brazil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Numbers View Post
    were seduced, in part, by the the confrontational rhetoric ...
    sounds like the 24 hr conservatard news cycle ... just sayin'.


    There we go Merlin piped in to prove my point, thanks Merlin.

  70. #70
    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Yeah Araysar, it's totally ok that we funded the best killers we could find because once The Ultimate Evi Of Communism was pushed out of Afghanistan, they started fighting each other.
    Radical Muslims that formed Taliban, Mujahaddeen, etc. dont have the same goal of oppressing women, living in a patriarchial society, restricting everyone's rights but their own and waging Jihad in their spare time?

    Tell me of some of these massive differences between the men who eventually formed the Taliban like Omar Mohammed and the men who fought with Mujahadeen like Osama Bin Laden?

  71. #71
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Radical Muslims that formed Taliban, Mujahaddeen, etc. dont have the same goal of oppressing women, living in a patriarchial society, restricting everyone's rights but their own and waging Jihad in their spare time?

    Tell me of some of these massive differences between the men who eventually formed the Taliban like Omar Mohammed and the men who fought with Mujahadeen like Osama Bin Laden?
    They disagreed about who should be running things in the power vacuum left by the soviets?
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    An op-ed but interesting none the less.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/op...anted=all&_r=0

    Quote Originally Posted by NYT
    Actually, it was bungling by Chávez-appointed business directors who tried to impose pseudo-Marxist principles, only to be later replaced by opportunists and crooks, that hit Ciudad Guayana.

    Underinvestment and ineptitude hit hydropower stations and the electricity grid, causing weekly blackouts that continue to darken cities, fry electrical equipment, silence machinery and require de facto rationing. The government has no shortage of scapegoats: its own workers, the C.I.A. and even cable-gnawing possums.

    Reckless money printing and fiscal policies triggered soaring inflation, so much so that the currency, the bolívar, lost 90 percent of its value since Mr. Chávez took office, and was devalued five times over a decade. In another delusion, the currency had been renamed “el bolívar fuerte,” the strong bolívar — an Orwellian touch.

    Harassment of privately owned farms and chaotic administration of state-backed agricultural cooperatives hit food production, compelling extensive imports, which stacked up so fast thousands of tons rotted at the ports. Mr. Chávez called it “food sovereignty.
    Food sovereignty, I like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYT
    He spent extravagantly on health clinics, schools, subsidies and giveaways, including entirely new houses. Those employed in multiplying bureaucracies — officials lost track of fleeting ministries — voted for him to secure their jobs.

    His elections were not fair — Mr. Chávez rigged rules in his favor, hijacked state resources, disqualified some opponents, emasculated others — but they were free.

    As Venezuela atrophied, he found some refuge in blaming others, notably the “squealing pigs” and “vampires” of the private sector whom he accused of hoarding and speculating. Soldiers arrested butchers for overpricing.

    His own supporters increasingly blamed those around him: by 2011 you could see graffiti with the slogan “bajo el gobierno, viva Chávez” — “down with the government, long live Chávez.”

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Radical Muslims that formed Taliban, Mujahaddeen, etc. dont have the same goal of oppressing women, living in a patriarchial society, restricting everyone's rights but their own and waging Jihad in their spare time?

    Tell me of some of these massive differences between the men who eventually formed the Taliban like Omar Mohammed and the men who fought with Mujahadeen like Osama Bin Laden?
    Ostensibly, the US was backing primarily groups who were allied with Ahmad Shah Massoud, who were in open conflict with the groups who became the Taliban.

    The Mujahadeen was simply not a cohesive body in any way such that it could be said that it spoke with one united voice about issues. It was as divided as it could be.

    Now, realistically, a whole shit load of the weapons the US sold to the Mujahadeen who were on Ahmad Shah Massoud's side ended up in the hands of the side that later became the Taliban, because derp once you sell the weapons to one group its easy enough for them to trade some of them to other groups for various reasons.

    Its not really fair to characterize the whole Mujahadeen as Sheik Omar types, but its hardly honest when someone pretends the US wasn't really arming everyone but the Soviets in the conflict, because we most absolutely certainly were.

    Ahmad Shah Massoud was generally a pretty good dude though. He was building schools, was for some extension of rights to women, what have you.

    Too bad he got blowed the fuck up about 3 days before 9-11 though, and I'm sure if you dig enough, the man had his skeletons as well.

  74. #74
    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashel View Post
    An op-ed but interesting none the less.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/op...anted=all&_r=0



    Food sovereignty, I like that.
    That op-ed is total bullshit, because it doesn't suck Chavez's dick for having the balls to stand up to the US and energy companies. That's all that matters, remember?

  75. #75
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    That op-ed is total bullshit, because it doesn't suck Chavez's dick for having the balls to stand up to the US and energy companies. That's all that matters, remember?
    It's total bullshit because it insinuates that there's a serious debate about him being a dictator.
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  76. #76
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Don't forget he practically gave away oil to us too!!

  77. #77
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Here's some not-dumb about the whole thing: http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/6..._leader_leaves
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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Oh and let's not forget that Chomsky himself accused Chavez of assaulting democracy and disregarding human rights (along with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...avez-democracy

    Afiuni remains under detention, near as I can tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mire View Post
    The coup as it happened in 2002:

    I highly recommend this for some insight as to how Chavez was seen BY HIS OWN PEOPLE.

  80. #80
    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    It's total bullshit because it insinuates that there's a serious debate about him being a dictator.
    There is/was such a debate, given how he ran the country, intimidated the media, brought the judiciary to heel, used state funds to support his party, and so on. No different than with Putin in Russia or Mugabe in Zimbabwee. I would say that Chavez and Putin aren't or weren't outright dictators, but they're certainly authoritarian leaders who are/were well on their way to becoming dictators. Mugabe I'd say is, but given that he's been "elected" and ostensibly agreed to share power with his opposition (at least in theory), I don't think there's a hard and fast distinction between he and the other two.

    And keep in mind, the author of that article went on to say that he wasn't a dictator or a democrat, but a hybrid. I think that's pretty accurate. Not to mention that he said such debate missed the more important points of his leadership, like performance and competence.

  81. #81
    Boooya ohkcrlho's Avatar
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    Mugabe?come on.....i think you know how he runs the country.
    plus,i think you know what was Zimbabwe (or Rhodesia) before and after Mugabe.
    A war is coming, I've seen it in my dreams. Fires sweeping over the Earth, bodies in the streets, cities turned to dust... retaliation.

    Hollywood is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything you love is dead.

  82. #82
    No more Rockpounding. Fazana's Avatar
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    Saddam had his gold plated AK47's, one of Chavez's weaknesses was for motor racing. He got his government owned oil company to pay for one of his countrymen to take a seat in Formula 1.

    The cost, a cool $46m in 2011 with the cost going up each year to the value of $60m by 2016, by far the largest pay driver deal in F1 history. Maldonado has been a highly visible and loud pro-Chavez supporter whilst he has been part of the F1 travelling circus to the surprise of no-one.

    http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/02/15/ma...iams-for-2012/
    Last edited by Fazana; 03-06-2013 at 09:16 PM.

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    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    If those are things that make Chavez a "dictator" then I can just as easily argue that Bush was a dictator.


    assaulted democracy via PATRIOT ACT
    violated human rights via torture of political/military prisoners, rendition of prisoners to black CIA sites, Abu Ghraib,
    packed the judiciary with his own judges (Alito, Roberts for SCOTUS, many more in circuit)
    dismissed multiple US attorneys to prevent them from investigating Republican crimes
    misappropriated government money by handing out cash to cronies in form of no bid contracts
    stole the 2004 election


    I'm not saying that Chavez was entirely right for doing some of those things but he was in an entirely different set of circumstances where he wasn't just fighting western stooges lined up to run against him but also coups, assassinations attempts and rigged elections - all sponsored by the West.

    Save the word "dictator" for guys like Stalin and Hussein, not Chavez.

    '

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    It was always vastly amusing watching the Dubya administration bitch about Chavez "fixing" elections, too.
    Really? Really?

  85. #85
    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Save the word "dictator" for guys like Stalin and Hussein, not Chavez.
    And again, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Neither does the author of the NYT Op-Ed that Mikhail was so eager to dismiss on the sole grounds of him acknowledging that there was some debate about whether he was or wasn't. And yes, there was plenty of debate about whether or not Bush was becoming a dictator as well. A simple search for "Bush dictator" will turn up plenty of hits. Acknowledging that people discussed whether or not he was a dictator does not automatically mean that someone agrees with the premise.
    Last edited by Eomer; 03-06-2013 at 09:34 PM.

  86. #86
    0011101000101001 Silence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fazana View Post
    Saddam had his gold plated AK47's, one of Chavez's weaknesses was for motor racing. He got his government owned oil company to pay for one of his countrymen to take a seat in Formula 1.

    The cost, a cool $46m in 2011 with the cost going up each year to the value of $60m by 2016, by far the largest pay driver deal in F1 history. Maldonado has been a highly visible and loud pro-Chavez supporter whilst he has been part of the F1 travelling circus to the surprise of no-one.

    http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/02/15/ma...iams-for-2012/
    Jezuz.

    Also, complete shit as a driver.

  87. #87
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    I would just like to see something verifiable, something not an op ed for a start, that can explain to me why people are celebrating this dude's death.

  88. #88
    Registered User Itzena's Avatar
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    Because the US government told them to.

  89. #89
    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    I would just like to see something verifiable, something not an op ed for a start, that can explain to me why people are celebrating this dude's death.
    Something something socialism. Why are you asking questions?

  90. #90
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    And keep in mind, the author of that article went on to say that he wasn't a dictator or a democrat, but a hybrid. I think that's pretty accurate. Not to mention that he said such debate missed the more important points of his leadership, like performance and competence.
    I don't think those points are even remotely as important as the (undisputed) legitimacy of the elections that put and kept him in office. Whatever his performance, as evaluated by the citizens of the country he was president of, he was a success.
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  91. #91
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    And again, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Neither does the author of the NYT Op-Ed that Mikhail was so eager to dismiss on the sole grounds of him acknowledging that there was some debate about whether he was or wasn't. And yes, there was plenty of debate about whether or not Bush was becoming a dictator as well. A simple search for "Bush dictator" will turn up plenty of hits. Acknowledging that people discussed whether or not he was a dictator does not automatically mean that someone agrees with the premise.
    In precisely the same sense there is "debate" about whether or not bigfoot exists. Is bigfoot worthy of being mentioned in the biggest newspaper on earth? It implies a level of legitimacy for the position that is not warranted.
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  92. #92
    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    I would just like to see something verifiable, something not an op ed for a start, that can explain to me why people are celebrating this dude's death.
    Several of the links I posted were not Op-Eds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    I don't think those points are even remotely as important as the (undisputed) legitimacy of the elections that put and kept him in office. Whatever his performance, as evaluated by the citizens of the country he was president of, he was a success.
    While the elections are considered "free", they've not necessarily been considered fair when Chavez has (again) shut down most media that opposed him and used government and PDVSA funds to lavish regions and people with gifts from on high, with his name on them. Read this report if you're interested: http://www.cartercenter.org/resource...-final-rpt.pdf

  93. #93
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    While the elections are considered "free", they've not necessarily been considered fair when Chavez has (again) shut down most media that opposed him
    You mean the media that actively participated in an attempted coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    and used government and PDVSA funds to lavish regions and people with gifts from on high, with his name on them.
    Yeah people voted for Obama because he gave them gifts. Got it.
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  94. #94
    Registered User Ko Dokomo's Avatar
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    We only hate him because of Venezuela's geography really. The Caribbean is an American Sea, as the Med once was for Rome. If you border it you need to fall in line.
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  95. #95
    Hard Truths Cut Both Ways AladainAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    If those are things that make Chavez a "dictator" then I can just as easily argue that Bush was a dictator.


    assaulted democracy via PATRIOT ACT
    violated human rights via torture of political/military prisoners, rendition of prisoners to black CIA sites, Abu Ghraib,
    packed the judiciary with his own judges (Alito, Roberts for SCOTUS, many more in circuit)
    dismissed multiple US attorneys to prevent them from investigating Republican crimes
    misappropriated government money by handing out cash to cronies in form of no bid contracts
    stole the 2004 election
    Besides the really silly notion of "stealing" the 2004 election, Obama has done everything else you've listed outside of the attorneys. In fact, in some cases - like violation of human rights and assaulting democracy, he's doing it more so. Is Gitmo closed yet? Are we killing american citizens without due process now? Are we still handing out cash to cronies in form of no bid contracts?

    Yep. But I know, republicans are vastly worse than democrats, so all this is okay. np. This is all just rabblerabblerabble. fingers in your ears. Who cares. no big deal. etc.

  96. #96
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AladainAF View Post
    Yep. But I know, republicans are vastly worse than democrats, so all this is okay. np. This is all just rabblerabblerabble. fingers in your ears. Who cares. no big deal. etc.
    Yeah you're right McCain or Romney would totally wouldn't have been as bad/worse on those vectors.
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  97. #97
    Retard Rehabilitation Program
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    i don't even know what McCain stands for anymore, or the senior republicans who do not know how gov't works.

  98. #98
    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AladainAF View Post
    Besides the really silly notion of "stealing" the 2004 election, Obama has done everything else you've listed outside of the attorneys. In fact, in some cases - like violation of human rights and assaulting democracy, he's doing it more so. Is Gitmo closed yet? Are we killing american citizens without due process now? Are we still handing out cash to cronies in form of no bid contracts?

    Yep. But I know, republicans are vastly worse than democrats, so all this is okay. np. This is all just rabblerabblerabble. fingers in your ears. Who cares. no big deal. etc.
    Quick question.

    What happened to you in the last few months that made you stop posting and made you so profoundly more stupid? Is it the lack of interaction with those who are better informed than you?

    1. In the medicare discussion you ramble on about how government intervention makes everything more expensive and worse, yet self-admittedly you acknowledge that medicare (that very same thing that the discussion is about) saves money and keeps costs lower than private health insurance, thus leading to a profound, facepalming, "WTF!?" moment. Instead you ramble about how government makes some other stuff more expensive that you don't specify.

    2. Similarly in the passage above where Obama is just like Bush except not because of A and B. Yeah and my mom would be my aunt if my dad fucked her sister instead. So from this 2nd claim I can only derive 2 conclusions, so pick one:
    A. Bush, Chavez and Obama (but not really because he didnt do A and B) are all dictators
    B. Neither of them are dictators which I bet really rustles your jimmies when it comes to Barry Fuhrer Soetoro Obamonongo and Hugo Chavez.

  99. #99
    Band Araysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post



    While the elections are considered "free", they've not necessarily been considered fair when Chavez has (again) shut down most media that opposed him and used government and PDVSA funds to lavish regions and people with gifts from on high, with his name on them. Read this report if you're interested: http://www.cartercenter.org/resource...-final-rpt.pdf
    Did he give them Chavez-Phones and free healthcare check ups?

    That son of a bitch....

  100. #100
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomer View Post
    Several of the links I posted were not Op-Eds.
    I saw a couple but they didn't have verifiable information. Like that one you posted referencing some Venezuelan org that apparently doesn't exist or something. I did see the Human Rights Watch article, but it is cray long and without references so it is hard to gauge. Which is kind of what I'm getting at. I don't know what to believe or not believe about this guy based on what we know.

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