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    Camelot Unchained MMO

    Mark Jacobs returns.

    http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02...ns-to-camelot/

    It was no coincidence that Mark Jacobs was open to talking about his Warhammer Online experiences with us recently. If you deduced that it was the prelude to his MMO comeback attempt, you were right.

    Jacobs' City State Entertainment announced today that it's working on a new MMO under the working title of Camelot Unchained. And yes, it will be RvR-focused with three realms duking it out: Arthurian, Tuatha Dé Danann, and Viking. Camelot Unchained will tie RvR conflict into player housing and a dynamic economy as well.

    Because this tightly focused concept may prove to be too difficult to draw publisher support, the 13-person studio is turning to a future Kickstarter campaign for support. Obviously, we have no shortages of questions about this project, but we contained ourselves to the 10 most burning queries that we presented to Jacobs. Read about the future of Camelot after the jump!


    Massively: Could you give us an overview of this new MMO? Does it have a name yet?

    Mark Jacobs: As of now, the working title is Camelot Unchained. The game is an RvR-focused (almost no PvE) MMO that looks more to the past than the present for gameplay inspiration. In my opinion (I'll skip the "humble" part as some people will laugh if I say that), most if not all modern MMOs don't challenge the player as much as they should. As developers, we (myself included) as we have made things more convenient, easy, and hand-holding. We've lost touch with the portion of the playerbase that wants more challenge in their games.

    I am not talking about making it challenging by adding more boring grind but in other more interesting ways. By the way, when I say RvR-focused, I mean that every aspect of this game will be designed from the perspective of how it impacts RvR.

    So why stick to RvR instead of striking out in a different direction?

    I've been making PvP-centered games since my first MUD (Aradath) in the mid-'80s, and frankly, I like this style. In addition, considering the small size of our team, I think we can do a great job of making an RvR-focused game. I'll leave the job of trying to reinvigorate the themepark-style MMO or the PvE aspect to teams that have at least half a decade and blockbuster movie budgets.

    Do you see this as the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot?

    No, not really. While legally I would be able to make a spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot, I would rather focus on making this game great rather than on it as a sequel. I want this one to stand on its own, even if it does draw on some of the same literature and traditions.

    I'd like it to be very clear that we are not making a sequel. I won't try to tell DAoC players that our new project will meet all their desires in this regard. I have always valued their trust, so while I want the people who played my past games to look at this one and get excited, I won't go around shouting that it's the "spiritual successor to the greatest RvR MMO evar!" I'd rather simply say that we are working on a great concept for a new RvR-focused MMO that draws on some familiar European myths and legends, then go from there.

    Why return to the Arthurian setting instead of a different three-faction setting?

    For the same reasons I chose to use it before. I have always been a huge fan of the IP, and I thought that it was the perfect setting for DAoC -- even if I had to convince some members of Mythic I wasn't insane for choosing it. Given the fact that Camelot Unchained is an RvR-focused game, uses the same public domain legends and IP, and is re-imagined thanks to the piercing of the Veil, I think it is an even better fit this time around.

    What does the estimated budget for the game after all is said and done look like?

    The total budget will be over $10 million, of which we need about half to launch the game. We have more features and elements in mind to add via expansion packs. However, if we meet our stretch funding goals, we can aim to implement them either for launch or as soon after as they're ready.


    What will we see new in this game that wasn't in DAoC and WAR?

    A lot. The biggest difference is that RvR isn't the endgame -- it's the only game. Every system, skill, ability, gameplay element, etc., is geared toward RvR. There's almost no PvE (just a training area, some special events, etc.), and everything we add will always be tied into RvR.

    This game, unlike almost every other MMO that has PvP/RvR, isn't trying to serve two masters. We only want to do one thing right by creating the best RvR experience in any MMO to date. While this will be quite difficult, as there have been some great games that have some great RvR embodied in them, we think we can do it.

    What lessons from DAoC, Imperator, and WAR are you applying to the development of this title?

    In terms of design, less is more, quality over quantity, and focus on doing one thing really, really well.

    On the development side, listen to the players more and make sure you spend as much time as possible making the tools that you will need to test and balance this type of game.

    From the personnel perspective, surround yourself only with honest, hard-working people who are focused on making a great game rather than working toward their next vacation, bonus, etc. Also, don't let your personal feelings interfere with doing what you need to do to succeed, especially when other people may not feel the same way.

    Why return to MMOs after (apologies) being so badly burned by WAR?

    Honestly, while WAR wasn't the game it should have been, I try to see it in perspective. It had a three-year development cycle that cost less than most if not all AAA MMOs from 2004 onward, added a number of new things to the genre, was released in the heart of "The Great Recession" against a major World of Warcraft expansion pack. Yet it sold a ton of copies, is still running, and remains one of the top 10 highest Metacritic-rated MMOs.

    So I don't think I was all that badly burned by it. Again, it wasn't the game I thought it would be when I wrote the initial vision document, but when you compare it to some of the real financial and critical disasters in the MMO space, I'm not sure it would even make the top five.

    Oh, and to the whole "WAR cost $100 million (or more!) dollars thing" I've seen talked about for years, all I can say is no chance; we weren't even close to reaching that number. While I was CEO/GM of Mythic Entertainment, our spending was quite low compared to other studios, and even within EA, we were known for fiscal efficiency. We had our problems, but spending a ton of money -- or worse, doing so wastefully -- wasn't among them.

    As I've said both publicly and privately, I've learned a lot from what happened at EA/Mythic and with WAR. Nobody was more disappointed in WAR than I was. At launch, it had lots of wonderful things in it, but it also had way too many bugs, balance, and leveling issues, and of course, crashes in Tier 4. It was my worst nightmare come true, and as I've stated before, I was the only one who believed that was the case before launch (or was willing to stand up and say so). I definitely made some mistakes (crafting system) but frankly, the last three years have shown me how foolish I was to put so much faith into what certain people were telling me about WAR. That will not happen again.

    What business model (i.e., free-to-play, buy to play, subscription) are you looking at for this game?

    Multi-tiered subscription with no free-to-play option but with (maybe) some cosmetic items for housing. I think F2P and buy-to-play have their places, but we are trying to create a very niche-oriented MMORPG that won't benefit from using those models. I'd rather have 30K people paying and playing monthly than hundreds of thousands playing for free and hope to convert 5%. This game is geared to doing one thing spectacularly, and that one thing is RvR. I believe there is a core group of players who have been waiting for this type of game, and our Kickstarter campaign will either prove or disprove this notion.

    What aspirations do you have for the housing and crafting systems?

    One of the lessons I learned from what happened with WAR's crafting system is not to hype any system until it's almost ready to go. While I've always believed what I've said (and as I've pointed out before, I always had buy-in and sign-off from the team on anything major), I'm going to be a bit more circumspect this time. What I will say for now is that the housing system will have a strong sandbox feel to it.

    So will the crafting system, which will be more than a simple bolt-on to the game. The only way for experienced players to get their gear, items, etc., will be from the crafting system or from certain challenge (PvP) events. I want to make Camelot Unchained that best choice for players who want to be full-time crafters. I won't call it a sandbox game as I think that term has already been overused by developers, but I do want to have some extremely sandbox-type stuff in the play experience. This IP setting, this game style and this team are capable of pulling it off.

    Thanks for taking the time to talk about this project with us!

  2. #2
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02...lot/#continued

    Full 3 Faction RvR (little to no PvE)
    Multi-tiered subscription (no free-to-play option)
    Sandbox housing/crafting
    Kickstarter funded


    Spoiler: 

    It was no coincidence that Mark Jacobs was open to talking about his Warhammer Online experiences with us recently. If you deduced that it was the prelude to his MMO comeback attempt, you were right.

    Jacobs' City State Entertainment announced today that it's working on a new MMO under the working title of Camelot Unchained. And yes, it will be RvR-focused with three realms duking it out: Arthurian, Tuatha Dé Danann, and Viking. Camelot Unchained will tie RvR conflict into player housing and a dynamic economy as well.

    Because this tightly focused concept may prove to be too difficult to draw publisher support, the 13-person studio is turning to a future Kickstarter campaign for support. Obviously, we have no shortages of questions about this project, but we contained ourselves to the 10 most burning queries that we presented to Jacobs. Read about the future of Camelot after the jump!


    Massively: Could you give us an overview of this new MMO? Does it have a name yet?

    Mark Jacobs: As of now, the working title is Camelot Unchained. The game is an RvR-focused (almost no PvE) MMO that looks more to the past than the present for gameplay inspiration. In my opinion (I'll skip the "humble" part as some people will laugh if I say that), most if not all modern MMOs don't challenge the player as much as they should. As developers, we (myself included) as we have made things more convenient, easy, and hand-holding. We've lost touch with the portion of the playerbase that wants more challenge in their games.

    I am not talking about making it challenging by adding more boring grind but in other more interesting ways. By the way, when I say RvR-focused, I mean that every aspect of this game will be designed from the perspective of how it impacts RvR.

    So why stick to RvR instead of striking out in a different direction?

    I've been making PvP-centered games since my first MUD (Aradath) in the mid-'80s, and frankly, I like this style. In addition, considering the small size of our team, I think we can do a great job of making an RvR-focused game. I'll leave the job of trying to reinvigorate the themepark-style MMO or the PvE aspect to teams that have at least half a decade and blockbuster movie budgets.

    Do you see this as the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot?

    No, not really. While legally I would be able to make a spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot, I would rather focus on making this game great rather than on it as a sequel. I want this one to stand on its own, even if it does draw on some of the same literature and traditions.

    I'd like it to be very clear that we are not making a sequel. I won't try to tell DAoC players that our new project will meet all their desires in this regard. I have always valued their trust, so while I want the people who played my past games to look at this one and get excited, I won't go around shouting that it's the "spiritual successor to the greatest RvR MMO evar!" I'd rather simply say that we are working on a great concept for a new RvR-focused MMO that draws on some familiar European myths and legends, then go from there.

    Why return to the Arthurian setting instead of a different three-faction setting?

    For the same reasons I chose to use it before. I have always been a huge fan of the IP, and I thought that it was the perfect setting for DAoC -- even if I had to convince some members of Mythic I wasn't insane for choosing it. Given the fact that Camelot Unchained is an RvR-focused game, uses the same public domain legends and IP, and is re-imagined thanks to the piercing of the Veil, I think it is an even better fit this time around.

    What does the estimated budget for the game after all is said and done look like?

    The total budget will be over $10 million, of which we need about half to launch the game. We have more features and elements in mind to add via expansion packs. However, if we meet our stretch funding goals, we can aim to implement them either for launch or as soon after as they're ready.

    What will we see new in this game that wasn't in DAoC and WAR?

    A lot. The biggest difference is that RvR isn't the endgame -- it's the only game. Every system, skill, ability, gameplay element, etc., is geared toward RvR. There's almost no PvE (just a training area, some special events, etc.), and everything we add will always be tied into RvR.

    This game, unlike almost every other MMO that has PvP/RvR, isn't trying to serve two masters. We only want to do one thing right by creating the best RvR experience in any MMO to date. While this will be quite difficult, as there have been some great games that have some great RvR embodied in them, we think we can do it.

    What lessons from DAoC, Imperator, and WAR are you applying to the development of this title?

    In terms of design, less is more, quality over quantity, and focus on doing one thing really, really well.

    On the development side, listen to the players more and make sure you spend as much time as possible making the tools that you will need to test and balance this type of game.

    From the personnel perspective, surround yourself only with honest, hard-working people who are focused on making a great game rather than working toward their next vacation, bonus, etc. Also, don't let your personal feelings interfere with doing what you need to do to succeed, especially when other people may not feel the same way.

    Why return to MMOs after (apologies) being so badly burned by WAR?

    Honestly, while WAR wasn't the game it should have been, I try to see it in perspective. It had a three-year development cycle that cost less than most if not all AAA MMOs from 2004 onward, added a number of new things to the genre, was released in the heart of "The Great Recession" against a major World of Warcraft expansion pack. Yet it sold a ton of copies, is still running, and remains one of the top 10 highest Metacritic-rated MMOs.

    So I don't think I was all that badly burned by it. Again, it wasn't the game I thought it would be when I wrote the initial vision document, but when you compare it to some of the real financial and critical disasters in the MMO space, I'm not sure it would even make the top five.

    Oh, and to the whole "WAR cost $100 million (or more!) dollars thing" I've seen talked about for years, all I can say is no chance; we weren't even close to reaching that number. While I was CEO/GM of Mythic Entertainment, our spending was quite low compared to other studios, and even within EA, we were known for fiscal efficiency. We had our problems, but spending a ton of money -- or worse, doing so wastefully -- wasn't among them.

    As I've said both publicly and privately, I've learned a lot from what happened at EA/Mythic and with WAR. Nobody was more disappointed in WAR than I was. At launch, it had lots of wonderful things in it, but it also had way too many bugs, balance, and leveling issues, and of course, crashes in Tier 4. It was my worst nightmare come true, and as I've stated before, I was the only one who believed that was the case before launch (or was willing to stand up and say so). I definitely made some mistakes (crafting system) but frankly, the last three years have shown me how foolish I was to put so much faith into what certain people were telling me about WAR. That will not happen again.

    What business model (i.e., free-to-play, buy to play, subscription) are you looking at for this game?

    Multi-tiered subscription with no free-to-play option but with (maybe) some cosmetic items for housing. I think F2P and buy-to-play have their places, but we are trying to create a very niche-oriented MMORPG that won't benefit from using those models. I'd rather have 30K people paying and playing monthly than hundreds of thousands playing for free and hope to convert 5%. This game is geared to doing one thing spectacularly, and that one thing is RvR. I believe there is a core group of players who have been waiting for this type of game, and our Kickstarter campaign will either prove or disprove this notion.

    What aspirations do you have for the housing and crafting systems?

    One of the lessons I learned from what happened with WAR's crafting system is not to hype any system until it's almost ready to go. While I've always believed what I've said (and as I've pointed out before, I always had buy-in and sign-off from the team on anything major), I'm going to be a bit more circumspect this time. What I will say for now is that the housing system will have a strong sandbox feel to it.

    So will the crafting system, which will be more than a simple bolt-on to the game. The only way for experienced players to get their gear, items, etc., will be from the crafting system or from certain challenge (PvP) events. I want to make Camelot Unchained that best choice for players who want to be full-time crafters. I won't call it a sandbox game as I think that term has already been overused by developers, but I do want to have some extremely sandbox-type stuff in the play experience. This IP setting, this game style and this team are capable of pulling it off.


    Personally, I don't see this thing making it through Kickstarter as lots of folks were burned by Warhammer.
    Last edited by pyksel; 02-05-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  3. #3
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    It's going to be terrible.

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    Registered User Tral's Avatar
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    Lots of great-sounding features that will actually suck.

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    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Mark Jacobs? No thanks!

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    Registered User Marple's Avatar
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    Yeahhh...i'll back it up. DAoC RvR was one of the best things out there and Mark knows what he is doing. I doubt he had all the freedom he needed for WAR, after all it isn't his IP and he somehow needed to feed the Warhammer fanboys. I like the part where he says it is going to be a niche mmo. That is the only way to go to build something great. Just look at EvE Online it has niche written all over it.

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    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    At least we know where Matt Firor will go once TES Online bombs. (Sorry - couldn't help that one)

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    Registered User Muligan's Avatar
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    Yeah.. Mark Jacobs was all I needed to know. WAR could have been a great game and his stubbornness (at least what I read from his own posts) drove it into the ground until people could not take it anymore. I think I had more fun on WAR than I did anything post-EQ.

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    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    At least we know where Matt Firor will go once TES Online bombs. (Sorry - couldn't help that one)
    lol

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    It might be good. Just have to wait and see. Making early pronouncements of suckage is par for the course here, but that isn't because of any prescience, most new mmos suck. It's an easy bet.

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    Registered User Kedwyn's Avatar
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    I'll contribute to the kick starter. Always felt warhamner was close to being great except for a couple of really bad decisions.

    Game with only rvrvr in mind? Sign me up.

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    Registered User meko's Avatar
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    I agree. I felt like Warhammer was on the verge of greatness. A lot of MMO's borrowed from it too.

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    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedwyn View Post
    I'll contribute to the kick starter. Always felt warhamner was close to being great except for a couple of really bad decisions.

    Game with only rvrvr in mind? Sign me up.
    I can't help but feel the same way but only because of so many limited options in the MMO space these days in terms of quality and what can retain my attention.

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    Is this guy such a red flag? Only played WAR for a few weeks because of personal reasons, once I had time for MMOs again half a year later the game had already turned to ashes. The sucky European management didnt help.

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    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Creed View Post
    Is this guy such a red flag? Only played WAR for a few weeks because of personal reasons, once I had time for MMOs again half a year later the game had already turned to ashes. The sucky European management didnt help.
    Most of the hype for WAR came from Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett.

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    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim1 View Post
    It might be good. Just have to wait and see. Making early pronouncements of suckage is par for the course here, but that isn't because of any prescience, most new mmos suck. It's an easy bet.
    Well, some of it is educated opinion based on relic designers who ruined other games.

    It would be different if some of these people actually learned from their mistakes rather than keep making them over and over again.

    Most of the hype for WAR came from Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett.
    After it went free to play.

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    Registered User K13R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    Well, some of it is educated opinion based on relic designers who ruined other games.

    It would be different if some of these people actually learned from their mistakes rather than keep making them over and over again.



    After it went free to play.
    War isnt f2p the have umlimited trial in tier one which was maybe the best part of the game for some I played with a ststic 6 and it was some of the best pvp I had in years. I would even say since.

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    Rofl at some the devs descriptions lol.

    http://citystateentertainment.com/the-team-cu/

    Anna Luu keeps herself small because it makes her fury that much more concentrated. She once took down the UPS guy and ate his stomach before he’d completely stopped moving. It’s OK; they sent us another one the next day. They send us one every day. It’s nice of them.

    Michelle Davies was kicked out of Second Life for swarming other players with an army of self-replicating Daleks that transformed into bouncing penises. The upside is that Second Life is safer now. The downside is that she’s got nowhere left to send them but her first life.

    thier alot more take that link lol.

  19. #19
    Mike Wazowski Gecko's Avatar
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    I don't like kickstarter, but I'll keep an eye on this as DAOC was one of the better designed MMOs, even if it was released half baked. I'll give him a mulligan on WAR as it had quite a few EA idiots involved. I thought Jacobs was busy making IOS games, though?

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    Registered User K13R's Avatar
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    I wish him and his team the best..all check it out for 30 days most likely. I rather see the genre move back torwards its roots and get away from the heavy handed bean counters of these so called AAA mmos. Might see more ideas that make it vs the risk adverse bland superbuget mmos we see today

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    Registered User Muligan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyksel View Post
    Most of the hype for WAR came from Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett.

    Yeah.. and you know Paul Barnett can take a long walk off a short pier as well. Seems like I remember him pretty much being a public nuisance as well.

  22. #22
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    Well, some of it is educated opinion based on relic designers who ruined other games.

    It would be different if some of these people actually learned from their mistakes rather than keep making them over and over again.



    After it went free to play.
    I don't disagree that there was hype after it went F2P but to assume it didn't happen until it went F2P is absurd. Did you not participate in the beta or the events leading up the release and several months after? Barnett and Hickman were a freight train of hype and publicity snagging anyone that would listen for a few minutes and this was well before the game landed on the shelves.

  23. #23
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muligan View Post
    Yeah.. and you know Paul Barnett can take a long walk off a short pier as well. Seems like I remember him pretty much being a public nuisance as well.
    Agreed. He was fun to listen to prior to WAR being released and falling into the shitter but after that he was painful to listen to. I certainly have very low expectations for CSE's Camelot Unchained but it would be nice to get an MMO out there that's got some damn staying power.

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    Registered User Malkav's Avatar
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    "Uh, guys! It's a RVR game, with, you know, the three same fucking factions as DAOC, but NONONONO, it's not DAOC2".

    Uuuuuh sure.

  25. #25
    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Only thing that has me even a little hopeful is saying it's designed for a niche market. But damn, I'm just so sick of faction based PvP.

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    ..i.. Grim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkav View Post
    "Uh, guys! It's a RVR game, with, you know, the three same fucking factions as DAOC, but NONONONO, it's not DAOC2".

    Uuuuuh sure.
    Daoc2 is ok with me.

  27. #27
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    I'd be ok with DAOC2 but he is stating it's not but who knows at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim1 View Post
    Daoc2 is ok with me.
    Me too, it's just that Jacob just seems dumb saying exactly that.

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    I think he is way off of the mark, let me explain.

    MMORPGs were among the first games to push forward, and combine, all sorts of new and interesting technologies; digital distribution, social networking, persistence, and so on. These core technologies came to be associated with the EQ style games in much the same way that in the early 90s textured polygon graphics were associated with FPS games. It was into this world that DAoC was born, so it took that formula and adjusted it to match an aesthetic where players fighting players was the focus.

    That world is gone. Persistence, social networking, and rpg-systems are in every genre of game, and several of those genres are MUCH better suited for a PvP focused online game. Shooters, MoBAs, and strategy games all take the place of the niche he wants to fill with his new PvP-Focused MMO. There is no room, or any real desire, for what it seems he wants to make. World of Tanks might be one of the best examples of the new breed of PvP MMOs. It takes a core game that is arena-based, and layers on top of that a browser-driven meta game that gives some real heft to the clan matches, leading to proper emotional investment.

    The other, and proper, direction to go is something Eve-like. Now, I can't stand playing Eve because it is so mind-numblingly tedious, but I recognize what it does. It builds a framework of desirable resources through PvE, or PvAsteroid, for which control is required and players are motivated to fight over. Eve PvP is exciting and tense because of the consequences derived from the environment, which again emotionally invest the players.

    I just don't see his old school middle ground DAoC-like game having a real shot.

  30. #30
    Mike Wazowski Gecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim1 View Post
    Daoc2 is ok with me.
    Same. Although with the wealth of fantasy material, why the fuck does Camelot need to be reused?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denaut View Post
    I just don't see his old school middle ground DAoC-like game having a real shot.
    I disagree completely, and my reasoning is he is creating a niche game targeted at a specific audience, not aiming for a bazillion subs. If his game requires 50k subs for a year to be successful and 100k box sales, then he'll probably make that target and then some by releasing a polished, good game focused on RVR.

    Here's hoping he has a lot of reusable code from past games sitting around.

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    Despite its flaws, I know a lot of people who still play DAOC today, and this is after trying just about everything else out there. Like others have said, I'd be more than fine with a DAOC 2, and if this is anything close I'll be playing. I blame EA a lot more for the failure of WAR than Mark. From his team description:

    Mark Jacobs co-founded Mythic Entertainment and made some kick-ass games like Dark Age of Camelot. Then he traded the company and his soul for a bunch of shiny beads. After winning back the soul in a Dubai poker game, he’s ready to do it all again. And this time, he’s got beads and he’s not afraid to use them.

  32. #32
    Registered User Vepil's Avatar
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    Reusable code?!?! Let's hope the "mythic second" does come along with that reusable code. I look forward to giving it a shot. Hell we all have gave games a shot that had no place being made.

  33. #33
    Registered User fifey's Avatar
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    I'm interested to see how this turns out, would be nice for the market to swing back to Indie/niche mmos instead of blockbuster failures. Plus, if it turns out being decent pvptards wont be able to bitch and scream at every game not catering to them and we can finally get a mmo without a horriblely forced pvp faction system.

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    Mark Jacobs, the guy who said long before DAoC beta started that class balancing was pretty much done as they already had balanced the classes when designing the game. He is and will always be a complete and utter retard.

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    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunhill View Post
    Mark Jacobs, the guy who said long before DAoC beta started that class balancing was pretty much done as they already had balanced the classes when designing the game. He is and will always be a complete and utter retard.
    Haha yes.

    Balance was an AE Mez which would mez an entire lot of 100 Albions at our Mid-Mile Emain Supply fort stun locking them for over 2 minutes while we would have 4 of us just going around one by one to the tears of the pubbies.

    That, and obviously telling everyone how DAOC would be complete at launch, then launched to all post 35 itemization being non existant while artificially blocking keep doors to block progression to the relic game until that was finished 3 months later.

    I don't know why these people just don't go do something else. This would include anyone who designed games in the mid 90's through about 2002 or had anything with the statement of "Diku Mud" within their resume.

  36. #36
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Hey man, don't knock DIKU muds. They teach some very good lessons, like how to make a fun game with severe tech limitations. I mean when you are playing a game that is text based on a 9600 baud modem on a server that can't hold more than 200 congruent connections, you need to design the shit out of it to be fun.

    Unfortunately a lot (ok maybe just some) of the developers out there haven't evolved since then.

  37. #37
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    Haha yes.

    Balance was an AE Mez which would mez an entire lot of 100 Albions at our Mid-Mile Emain Supply fort stun locking them for over 2 minutes while we would have 4 of us just going around one by one to the tears of the pubbies.

    That, and obviously telling everyone how DAOC would be complete at launch, then launched to all post 35 itemization being non existant while artificially blocking keep doors to block progression to the relic game until that was finished 3 months later.

    I don't know why these people just don't go do something else. This would include anyone who designed games in the mid 90's through about 2002 or had anything with the statement of "Diku Mud" within their resume.
    Fuck, I miss my Alb Sorc.

  38. #38
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    I never played DAOC or WAR and I don't know who Marc Jacobs is (I thought he was a fashion designer lolz). That being said, I like the fact that he is at least trying something new. This board notoriously pans every WOW-rehash, and when someone comes along and says they want to go in a different direction, the trendy response seems to be "we don't need that."

    Lots of people have failed many times, particularly in art mediums, to produce high quality work. Then one day, eureka! They release something genius. The same can be said in reverse - many artists have a huge hit early in their career, then go on to produce a load of trash for years to come. Bottom line, if this turns out to be a great game, Utnayan and all the other cock gobblers around here (who probably couldn't program a tic-tac-toe game) will finally have to eat crow.

    I have faith that we will see another great MMORPG experience in our life time, and odds are its going to be sooner rather than later. Is it going to be this particular game? Most likely not, but until we see a beta I'm withholding all judgement. At least this game is likely to be released.

  39. #39
    Retired RR Pantheon Mod Convo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K13R View Post
    War isnt f2p the have umlimited trial in tier one which was maybe the best part of the game for some I played with a ststic 6 and it was some of the best pvp I had in years. I would even say since.
    seriously.. how do we recreate this? That was by far the most fun I had PvPing too. I'm not even sure what made it great lol? Maybe some of you technical guys could break it down? Was it the lack of abilities/CC?

  40. #40
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I never played DAOC or WAR and I don't know who Marc Jacobs is (I thought he was a fashion designer lolz). That being said, I like the fact that he is at least trying something new.
    He isn't trying anything that he didn't create 12 years ago when DAOC launched. Aside from nixing PvE?

    Most of the folks on that team are of the same relic status, save a few.

    I agree with you that we need new games to advance the genre. It isn't ironic (Good or bad) that the last major financial and critical success was WoW, from two folks who just played the shit out of the games and knew how to advance them in the way of what most people wanted. Now we have the same tired people making the same tired games under yet another company (I mean hell some are now working on their 4th failure) and until we see another break out Afraisiabi or Kaplan of this generation, with a company that actually is able to afford a risk, we aren't going to see a thing.

    That's unfortunate.

  41. #41
    Registered User Kharza-kzad's Avatar
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    Here's hoping it won't be another stun festival. If so I'll stick to the low level battlegrounds where I can actually control my character.

  42. #42
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Yeah nothing new with this game, just promises of "I learned my lesson and won't fuck up the same way again! And with less money!!"

  43. #43
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegan View Post
    Yeah nothing new with this game, just promises of "I learned my lesson and won't fuck up the same way again! And with the money of the community with zero repercussions when it's terrible!
    Or that.

    MMORPGs are the last thing we needed to come to kick starter. Especially with people like these. Let the exploitation begin

  44. #44
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    Hopefully they keep it simple. I'm willing to throw money at the kickstarter for this quote:
    The biggest difference is that RvR isn't the endgame -- it's the only game. Every system, skill, ability, gameplay element, etc., is geared toward RvR. There's almost no PvE (just a training area, some special events, etc.), and everything we add will always be tied into RvR.

    This game, unlike almost every other MMO that has PvP/RvR, isn't trying to serve two masters. We only want to do one thing right by creating the best RvR experience in any MMO to date. While this will be quite difficult, as there have been some great games that have some great RvR embodied in them, we think we can do it.
    I assume it will suck, but I'm a moron who keeps going back to the same dry well.

  45. #45
    Registered User Swagdaddy's Avatar
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    So now instead of trying to find private funding for MMOs people are just trying kickstarters?

    Say a couple things that sound good and then pocket tons of cash while the projects turn to vaporware if they even existed at all, I've already donated to like 2 and just feel stupid tbh.

  46. #46
    ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Eorkern's Avatar
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    What is kickstarter ?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eorkern View Post
    What is kickstarter ?
    Some of the Kickstarters latley are just Ponzi scheme's basically.

    Major difference latley is that most of them the kickstarters even if funded then require later kickstarter and on, on like a computer loop.
    Then when they cant get anymore kickstarters just becomes vaporware.
    Last edited by AlekseiFL; 02-06-2013 at 04:56 AM.

  48. #48
    Registered User Sutekh's Avatar
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    Sorry but he's trying to say WAR wasn't a flop. He didn't learn his lesson. This game will also be shit.

  49. #49
    Registered User balroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlekseiFL View Post
    Some of the Kickstarters latley are just Ponzi scheme's basically.

    Major difference latley is that most of them the kickstarters even if funded then require later kickstarter and on, on like a computer loop.
    Then when they cant get anymore kickstarters just becomes vaporware.
    links to these ponzi schemes? pretty sure people who get kickstarter funding are legally obligated to finish their project.

  50. #50
    Sucks at being a grammer Nazi. etchazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by balroc View Post
    links to these ponzi schemes? pretty sure people who get kickstarter funding are legally obligated to finish their project.
    finishing a project and having a finished product are two totally different things. see also vanguard. also, so sick and tired of having hard factions. why does there have to be only 3 factions? why can't players make their own factions? 3 may be better than 2, but it's still gay.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by balroc View Post
    links to these ponzi schemes? pretty sure people who get kickstarter funding are legally obligated to finish their project.
    It's still a relatively untested thing. Kickstarter's TOS only requires that people either give out their fund rewards or refund anyone that can't give the reward to, since at least one reward level almost always includes the finished product, these generally go hand-in-hand. Kickstarter does warn people who start one that they could take "legal action on behalf of [their] backers," but to my knowledge this has yet to happen.

    From Kickstarter:

    If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers
    The pursuit of these projects with a guarantee doesn't work. A Kickstarter where every project is guaranteed would be the same safe bets and retreads we see everywhere else. The fact that Kickstarter allows creators to take risks and attempt to create something ambitious is a feature, not a bug.

  52. #52
    Registered User Marple's Avatar
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    I think most of you guys are wrong. The biggest mistake of the mmo market was to try please every player out there. MMOs were meant to be niche genre. Back in the days of UO, EQ and AC were niche games in the games market. Granted, World of Warcraft made the game makers go mad but WoW was and is an exception. In future I don't think we will see huge productions any more. The gaming industry will stop looking at WoW and start looking at games like EvE which for us can only mean a good thing. Who says a RvR based MMO wouldn't work? Planetside 2 anyone? Mark Jacobs just said the will be barely any PvE...well so do games like DoTa 2 or LoL. Lets just see and wait, I think they are on the right track.

  53. #53
    Registered User Azrayne's Avatar
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    I'm on the fence about this. On the one hand, DAoC was the formative MMO experience for me, I played on and off up until about 18 months ago, and would still be playing if there were enough people to make RvR fun. Not only that, but I have a huge nerd boner for the athurian/norse/celtic mythology setting.

    On the other hand, despite how fun RvR was, Mythic seemed to completely miss the point on what made their game so fun to play and made so many horrible decisions in the first 3 or 4 years of the game's lifespan, and then WAR happened and we all know how that went, so I'm really, really cautious of anything with the same crowd attached to it. I think it's a 'wait and see' thing, I love the setting and PvP MMO's so I'll definitely try it, and maybe chip in a few dollars, but I'm not going to get too worked up ahead of time.
    " I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"

  54. #54
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    Ugh.. so torn on this one. A lot of my early PC golden days came from early Mythic titles, namely Darkness Falls / Darkness Falls: The Crusade, and Magestorm (DAoC's entire concept was based off of DFC for those who don't know), and then Jacobs took a giant dump on that community and basically cut all support on them to focus on DAoC. Not really surprising as the communities in those games were all quite small.. but still, has never sat right with me.

    And then we have.. well pretty much everything else Mark Jacobs has done. I dunno, need a lot more info and I'll have to see this kickstarter before I can decide anything I guess. If he can actually remember where his roots are and bring back some of the magic his early games had it could be a great game, imo.
    Last edited by Shano; 02-06-2013 at 08:57 AM.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by balroc View Post
    links to these ponzi schemes? pretty sure people who get kickstarter funding are legally obligated to finish their project.
    Its called Sacrism 1st off my Ponzi scheme refrence.

    Next Alot do finish the Kickstarters.

    I myself love donateing to kickstarter think its great concept helps small teams of devs for niche project get it off the ground.


    However lately their is trend for everyone doing this, and with that comes highly likely Fraud thus my Ponzi scheme refrence.

    While Legally those did not finish and product becomes Vaporware are not offically commiting fraud, hell they might not have even attended to.
    Just simpy ends up that way cause have some people at top of the mgmt of the kickstarter paying with all the licenses, hardware, and devs time paying themselves high salary.
    Frankly those people im talking about should not be manageing 1 hooker, let alone small game studio was my point.

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    @MarkJacobs
    SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!

  57. #57
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Sorry but he's trying to say WAR wasn't a flop. He didn't learn his lesson. This game will also be shit.
    It's really amazing to me that people can use the same tired scapegoats and excuses some of them have been using for years from the Mark Jacob's of the world. What is really terrible is that Kickstarter, which is a great concept and idea for some folks, is about to be abused as fuck by people like this guy, and soon, organizations like EA.

    Why fund anything when you can bank on gamers to take the fall for it every single time.

  58. #58
    Registered User Azrayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trix View Post
    @MarkJacobs
    SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!SOLO STEALTHERS!!!!!!!!
    Stealthers can go die of AIDs. They were one of the single most irritating parts of RvR, and ditto for every other MMO that has them. Perma-invisiblity has no place in a PvP game.
    " I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    It's really amazing to me that people can use the same tired scapegoats and excuses some of them have been using for years from the Mark Jacob's of the world. What is really terrible is that Kickstarter, which is a great concept and idea for some folks, is about to be abused as fuck by people like this guy, and soon, organizations like EA.

    Why fund anything when you can bank on gamers to take the fall for it every single time.
    See my reply UT totally agree.

    Kickstarters are either great or will have tools like him that keep doing new kickstarter for more funds.

    Even if the kickstarter has goals, hardware , software, hiring new devs etc their is gray area that the leaders of these small startups can fucking abuse the fuck out of.
    Thus my Ponzi scheme refrence.

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    the site timed out, double post.
    deleted it.

  61. #61
    Delicious Noodles Noodleface's Avatar
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    Not playing any new MMOs until they have been out for a year and deemed worthy. FUCK. It's like the industry is just churning out rubbish after rubbish.. and it's the same people! FUCK THIS SHIT. If people like us didn't buy these heaps of donkey ass these people would have to find new careers and maybe we'd get actual talent in the business again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    Why fund anything when you can bank on gamers to take the fall for it every single time.
    Gut instinct tells me these guys are asses abusing the system for no risk development and will simply churn out more of the crap they always have. On the other hand I cant fault kickstarter or anyone that wants creative freedom from those would be financiers with controlling interest. That is what I feel is necessary to take risks and move the genre forward. Even better when we have the power to help, or watch them crash and burn.

  63. #63
    Registered User Kedwyn's Avatar
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    I really don't get the hate. At all.

    Warhammer was really close to being great. Class balance issues aside. You could level to max with PVP only, the PVE wasn't bad and they introduced public quests. If they had allowed you to select any warzone from the start to play through end game and didn't get stuck with the shitty ones in your range it would of been a lot better. Let the players decide what is worth playing or not and don't force people to play a terrible map just because you can.

    End game was terrible but fixable. The PVE raiding via PVP was retarded. Same with how they encouraged keep swapping instead of defending, which both of those would of been pretty easy to fix. The end game t4 PvP zones weren't very well designed either with lots of relief and choke points making things difficult to get anywhere but aside from those few really bad decisions the game itself was closer to being really good than any of the other crap we've seen since WoW.

    Regardless most of that would have been pretty easy to fix if it wasn't under EA's thumb and won't even come into play since they aren't even doing PVE with the game. How anyone can say its DAOC 2 with removal of PVE is beyond me. DAOC had a HUGE PVE grind and an entire PVE expansion. Have we ever seen a MMO that just did RvR as the entire game?

    Its interesting enough as is and Jacobs has proven he has some good ideas. I just don't get the hate about a game we know little about. I know its popular to shit on everything here while bitching out the other side of your mouth how everyone is copying WoW and no one has the balls to do anything different but I just don't get the hate at all with this.
    Last edited by Kedwyn; 02-06-2013 at 06:00 PM.

  64. #64
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    WAR was no where near being great from their world design, class design, end game design, combat mechanics, server infrastructure.

    You is on crack.

  65. #65
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedwyn View Post
    I really don't get the hate. At all.
    1) Mark Jacobs is a horrible producer/manager - and is terrible at keeping people on task.

    2) He will never learn his lesson, regardless of what he says, to keep his mouth shut before features go live.

    3) He is using Kickstarter funds so he doesn't have to take the risk on his own, so while he most definitely has the means to do so, he will pray on the gamers. (This can most definitely be a bad thing when in the hands of Jacobs or any other relic money pit) With kickstarter, he is not held accountable to staying on track which is already a problem to begin with.

    4) Old ideas, old game, old concepts. Which is fine - there are a lot of people that may enjoy playing that. I might too. However, his business model is once again stuck in the past along with his ideas.

    5) Sub based MMORPG's are dead. That money train (Publishers made a shitload of cash off these by the way) is over. I would think the best model is the way Guild Wars 2 did it. Buy the box to play, have a very solid game to go through, with quality of life items and fub gimmicks on the online store.

    6) I would challenge you to name one successful MMORPG released in the last 8 years in where the relic veteran designers had any success what so ever.

  66. #66
    Delicious Noodles Noodleface's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedwyn View Post
    I really don't get the hate. At all.

    Warhammer was really close to being great. Class balance issues aside. You could level to max with PVP only, the PVE wasn't bad and they introduced public quests. If they had allowed you to select any warzone from the start to play through end game and didn't get stuck with the shitty ones in your range it would of been a lot better. Let the players decide what is worth playing or not and don't force people to play a terrible map just because you can.

    End game was terrible but fixable. The PVE raiding via PVP was retarded. Same with how they encouraged keep swapping instead of defending, which both of those would of been pretty easy to fix. The end game t4 PvP zones weren't very well designed either with lots of relief and choke points making things difficult to get anywhere but aside from those few really bad decisions the game itself was closer to being really good than any of the other crap we've seen since WoW.

    Regardless most of that would have been pretty easy to fix if it wasn't under EA's thumb and won't even come into play since they aren't even doing PVE with the game. How anyone can say its DAOC 2 with removal of PVE is beyond me. DAOC had a HUGE PVE grind and an entire PVE expansion. Have we ever seen a MMO that just did RvR as the entire game?

    Its interesting enough as is and Jacobs has proven he has some good ideas. I just don't get the hate about a game we know little about. I know its popular to shit on everything here while bitching out the other side of your mouth how everyone is copying WoW and no one has the balls to do anything different but I just don't get the hate at all with this.
    Come ahhhhnnnn

  67. #67
    Registered User Kid Sized Coffin's Avatar
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    I agree with Kedwyn. WAR had a lot of flaws but I think it had a good core and introduced some cool ideas. I've had a hard-on for public questing ever since. The details is where it fell apart - in addition to the above, "net code" and interface were huge issues, and the PVE was pretty crap outside the public quests. Class design was ok but needed a lot of work. Segregating the community during leveling with scenarios was also a problem.

    The game was salvageable at one point. I don't know about great, but it had potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    I would challenge you to name one successful MMORPG released in the last 8 years in where the relic veteran designers had any success what so ever.
    Would you mind naming MMORPGs released in the last 8 years you consider to have had any remote success? I'd assume Rift, DDO, LOTRO, and GW2 count. Runes of Magic maybe? Any others? It seems a bit lonely on that platform in general when I'm looking at the traditional MMO.
    Last edited by Kid Sized Coffin; 02-06-2013 at 07:18 PM.

  68. #68
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodleface View Post
    Come ahhhhnnnn
    I would also like to point out that everything he wanted fixed never was.

    This is like saying my dinner tastes like shit without salt and I cannot find salt and end up eating a shitty dinner.

    (I have * Always * wanted to use a food analogy here)

  69. #69
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    I enjoyed WAR, the open world realm PvP is where it shined and it was quite endearing. If not for server issues and lack lust/incomplete PvE, that game would have been great had there been a third faction. It was more community interactive than most triple AAA mmorpgs to date. Can't comment much on the Mark Jacobs thing, though he has admitted in interviews that he was in the wrong with decisions that were made in the past. If anyone deserves to be lynched its the developers/directors that keep putting out WoW clone drivel. He is one of the few trying to produce something against the grain, I say put the pitch forks down and see what his team can come up with.

  70. #70
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    I could of fixed WAR really easily. You take T1 and delete everything else in the game. That is your leveling and those are all the abilities you will ever get. Then add a ton of maps to fight over so players can gain pvp ranks and gear and shit.

    Of course you still had a shitty server code to work with but you can't have everything.

  71. #71
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Sized Coffin View Post
    Would you mind naming MMORPGs released in the last 8 years you consider to have had any remote success? I'd assume Rift, DDO, LOTRO, and GW2 count. Runes of Magic maybe? Any others? It seems a bit lonely on that platform in general when I'm looking at the traditional MMO.
    Ok I should actually define success as actually worth playing longer than a month, rather than companies able to squeek profits out of an MMORPG subscription with a skeleton crew.

    Either way, I would be looking at these folks:

    Raph Koster
    Brad McQuaid
    Bill Trost
    Jeff Butler
    Mark Jacobs
    Rich Vogel
    Matt Firor
    Bill Fisher


    For Guild Wars 2, Mike'O Brien wouldn't be considered one of the founding forefathers of the MMORPG genre. That's really who I am talking about here. Turbine has changed hands so many times that you are talking about a specific company, not a set of directors, and is now also owned by Warner Bros.

    Scott Hartsman is now gone from Trion. I would expect things to change rapidly and decline fast. He was the only one holding it together over there and people should hope Bill Fisher isn't placed in an executive producer role. Or that rapid decline will turn into a spiral into hell at the speed of thought.
    Last edited by Utnayan; 02-06-2013 at 08:07 PM.

  72. #72
    ..i.. Grim1's Avatar
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    Gotta agree with Kedwyn also, WAR had a lot going for it. Our DAoC guild stayed there for a looong time.

    It wasn't perfect, far from it, and like many I rage quit a few times in frustration over some of their boneheaded decisions. But other than DAoC, no other game got RvR so close to being right. The 2 faction issue was their worst mistake, the rest was fixable. GW2's version was fun for a short time, but it's prettly tame and doesn't have the staying power that even WAR's had. Hopefully GW2 makes some major changes soon because as of right now there really isn't any decent RvR game out.
    Last edited by Grim1; 02-06-2013 at 08:04 PM.

  73. #73
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim1 View Post
    It wasn't perfect, far from it and like many I rage quit a few times in frustration over some of their boneheaded decisions. But other than DAoC, no other game got RvR so close to being right. The 2 faction issue was their worst mistake, the rest was fixable.
    But.... It was never fixed. Right?

  74. #74
    ..i.. Grim1's Avatar
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    Nope. And that is why nobody plays it anymore. But as failures go it lasted hell of a lot longer than the 3-4 weeks the current bunch of mmos get.

    The 2 faction problem is huge though, game breaking in many ways. It's debatable if fixing the other things would have mattered.
    Last edited by Grim1; 02-06-2013 at 08:14 PM.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedwyn View Post
    Have we ever seen a MMO that just did RvR as the entire game?
    The ones I know are Planetside 1 around the time of DaoC and recently Planetside 2.

    Now you might say you want it in a fantasy setting with a strong RPG aspect. In that case I cant think of any. But really once you move into PvP/RvR/WvW only territory you have to make the game similar to Planetside, or step away from the mmo aspect and make it team matchmaking or lobby based. The closest for a fantasy setting that would work for personally is a design like EVE, but that still has PvE even though you are never safe from PvP and much of PvE serves only to fuel the war machine.

  76. #76
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    Utnayan would it not be great if Mark managed his indie team to throw together a Minecraft esque RvR game, incorporating a strong crafting game, allowing player built castles, and keeping a niche-sandbox philosophy behind it all the while being OK with having a dedicated 50-100k subs? What if it was a shining beacon in the dredge of MMORPGs that litter the landscape today, beaming of thoughtful development and realistic goals? It could happen right?!

  77. #77
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Mark's statement about his vision.

    Spoiler: 

    Be careful what you wish for…
    Over the years I’ve gotten a ton of “Please make another MMORPG!” (sometimes accompanied by “A good one this time!!!!”) or “Please make a DAoC 2” requests as well as lots of other interesting requests that seem quite anatomically impossible. However, after the “challenging” years of 2005-2009, I needed time, circumstances and stars to align before I was ready to make the decision to jump back into the MMORPG pool. When Mythic Entertainment set out on Dark Age of Camelot just about everybody in the industry said we would fail. That leading our little team against such major companies as Sony, Microsoft and Electronic Arts, who had their own (or were backing) MMORPGs, was nothing short of insanity. After all, even with a strong vision and a young and hungry team, we were told we had no chance of success. Well, despite the odds, only 2.5M in total development funding, 18 month cycle, and a tiny team (about a dozen full-time developers when we started), we created one of the best MMORPGs of all time, Dark Age of Camelot. As I’ve said many times elsewhere, I’m eternally grateful to that team because without their dedication, effort and creativity Dark Age would have been just another idea I got while taking a shower. However, in the immortal words of the great philosopher Timon, “You’ve got to put your past behind you.”

    That being said, I needed another great idea before I was willing to even consider making another MMORPG. While I’ve covered some of the steps I’ve taken down the MMORPG path elsewhere, it’s worth talking about this core concept a bit more. There was/is no greater champion for using these European myths and legends than me. I still love them as much as I did back in 1999 when I had to convince the Mythic team that it was the right idea for an MMORPG (and don’t get me started on how hard that was and that paled in comparison to trying to convince potential publishers and distributors). BTW, my favorite quote from those years is still how one European executive for a rather major multi-media company said to me “I don’t know why you think European players would be interested in playing a game based on Camelot.” Now, how could we use some of the same public domain myths and legends in a different and unique way? Well, quite a while ago a friend of mine and I were discussing what kind of games could succeed in Asia. He gave me some tips and I filed those away for future use. Many months later I remembered one of those tips, the one that had been especially important to me throughout my career, use dragons! One of my first online games was, of course, Dragon’s Gate and I still wear the same dragon charm that I have worn for over 20 years. Putting dragons into a game is hardly new. However, what if our world’s dragons were a mere reflection of what these beings are in their own reality? In addition, what if in their dimension their technology is what we call magic? Then, what if a cataclysmic event pierced the walls (Veil) and the power from that dimension flooded our world – a world with no magic, wizards, and dragons? Moreover, what if that power brought these legends and stories, dreams and nightmares, to life all at once? How would the world be changed? Would it even survive? This shattered world is the backdrop for what comes next.

    This is my vision for a new IP based on some of the greatest tales the Western world has ever known. A world where Arthur and his knights are not mere legends, but are alive and fighting to build Camelot; where Nuada has gathered the newly emergent Tuatha Dé Danann as they take their first steps out of the ether and where Sigurd is leading his mighty Viking warriors into glorious battle. This is not my former concept re-skinned, not simply Dark Age of Camelot 2 with a new name. If you are looking for a bold new vision for these legends, just as Dark Age of Camelot was a new vision back in 1999, look no further. If the idea of a Tri-Realm™, RvR-focused game where there is no PvE grinding, no gear grinding, no “instanced-based PvP/RvR” but with a entirely player-owned and crafted economy and where your choices matter, all set within a truly open and persistent world appeals to you, then I hope I’ve piqued your curiosity. And most importantly, if the words “server pride” and “realm pride” hold a special place in your heart; then I welcome you to my vision, our world and one day, with your help, a place where you are not merely reliving the legends of Camelot, Vikings and the Tuatha Dé Danann but forging them yourselves.

    -Mark

    P.S. I still hate gold farmers, paid power-levelers and hacked clients. I may have mellowed a bit but I haven’t changed THAT MUCH!

    Also, if you are interested in seeing this vision come to life, please sign up for our newsletter! We’re trying to use it to both gauge initial interest in the game but also to communicate with our future players so pretty please with a Viking on top?

  78. #78
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    He needs another great idea, so he decided to do Camelot and RvR. Heh.

  79. #79
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    If they can give me something similar to a good ole fashioned Festenplatz meat grinder, I'll fucking ante up. Also, one race MUST piss their pants for their detaunt animation ala WAR goblins.

  80. #80
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegan View Post
    He needs another great idea, so he decided to do Camelot and RvR. Heh.
    He, and others like him, just need to vanish and go do something else for a living. People like Jacob's is one of the very many reasons why the genre has not advanced to where it could be today given current technology, ideas, AI, etc.

    And yeah I agree. He needed another new great idea so he goes on to pat himself on the back with DAOC which was 60% complete when it launched, completely unbalanced in RvR with the maoinstay of RvR (Relics) not being available to play for 3 months post launch, then taking what finally could have been a fun concept once it was starting to work itself out, and destroying it with Trials of Atlantis, than digging further by releasing New Frontiers.

    The longer these people continue to make games without success, the more publishers just give up on funding all together. I really hope a reboot of personnel comes through one of these days. Where publishers wake up and realize maybe it wasn't a good idea to have Matt Firor and Rich Vogel lead up two flagship IP's after destroying three MMORPG's and driving them into the ground. Common sense? Guess not. Why / How does this continue to happen? A buddy system inside an incestuous genre / industry so nothing ever changes. We need some publishers to wake up and see this, instead of believing their scapegoats after squandering millions sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars.

    Just get rid of these idiots. I'd like to play a fresh MMORPG one of these days before I die.

  81. #81
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Taking risks...
    Spoiler: 
    Foundational Principle #1 – Be willing to take risks, even if fortune doesn’t always favor the bold
    Being safe is for tourists and for most casual games. This is the wrong game, wrong genre, wrong developer and wrong time to be safe. We will take chances with lots of aspects of this game. We are not afraid to take a stance on what we believe will make a great game even if it means angering (and losing) some potential customers. To quote one of my favorite movies, “This is a revolution dammit! We are going to have to offend somebody.”

    To say this game’s design will be fraught with risks is an understatement. I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors. I could also go out and talk about how this game “Will revolutionize PvE!” and attract another group of players and investors (that whole mass market thing) but yet I choose to make an RvR-focused game that even if successful has no chance of threatening Dark Age of Camelot’s peak subs (250k), let alone something much larger like EQ1. What I want to do is take chances with this game that most, if not all, publishers wouldn’t want to take with it and that’s exactly what we are going to do.

    You may be thinking, “that sounds good but WTF does it really mean to me?” It means that we are designing this game from the ground up by tossing out all of the MMORPG tropes that have involved since the first MUD crawled up out of the ether and blinked across a screen. I don’t really care if MMORPGs have been evolving in a certain direction whether over the last five years or fifteen years. All I and the team care about is what will make this game great and that will mean taking chances with the game’s design and again, be willing to piss some people off. And we are ready, willing and able to do that. We won’t include features just to gain a slightly larger market share. I won’t put (or allow anything to be put into the design by others) things that are there simply to gain more users at both the expense of other players and that are in conflict with the FPs. However, I may also put in some features that some people might not consider fun (like true day/night cycle, slower and different leveling systems, extremely limited fast travel, no PvE leveling/gear grind) because I believe that will make this a better game for our niche. It also means a willingness to take some chances with new design ideas as I’ve done in the past, even if it blows up in our face. Both Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online contained lots of risky game design decisions. Some worked well, some not so well and some flopped big-time but I’ve never been and never will be risk adverse. The game will have some very old school elements but it will also have some new ideas and twists and that means taking chances, big-time. Being totally independent again means I can take these chances the way I did in the past and that feels great.

    Over the next few weeks I’ll be talking about some of the risks we’ll be taking. If the Kickstarter funds, during the game’s development I’m sure the Backers and our team will come up with more new and risky ideas for us to experiment with. Sounds like fun to me. If it sounds like fun to you, I hope we will have your support for Kickstarter. If not, I thank you for taking the time to read this and possibly our other developer blog entries as well.

    Up next: RvR, it’s just not for endgame anymore!

  82. #82
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyksel View Post
    Taking risks...
    Spoiler: 
    Foundational Principle #1 – Be willing to take risks, even if fortune doesn’t always favor the bold
    Being safe is for tourists and for most casual games. This is the wrong game, wrong genre, wrong developer and wrong time to be safe. We will take chances with lots of aspects of this game. We are not afraid to take a stance on what we believe will make a great game even if it means angering (and losing) some potential customers. To quote one of my favorite movies, “This is a revolution dammit! We are going to have to offend somebody.”

    To say this game’s design will be fraught with risks is an understatement. I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors. I could also go out and talk about how this game “Will revolutionize PvE!” and attract another group of players and investors (that whole mass market thing) but yet I choose to make an RvR-focused game that even if successful has no chance of threatening Dark Age of Camelot’s peak subs (250k), let alone something much larger like EQ1. What I want to do is take chances with this game that most, if not all, publishers wouldn’t want to take with it and that’s exactly what we are going to do.

    You may be thinking, “that sounds good but WTF does it really mean to me?” It means that we are designing this game from the ground up by tossing out all of the MMORPG tropes that have involved since the first MUD crawled up out of the ether and blinked across a screen. I don’t really care if MMORPGs have been evolving in a certain direction whether over the last five years or fifteen years. All I and the team care about is what will make this game great and that will mean taking chances with the game’s design and again, be willing to piss some people off. And we are ready, willing and able to do that. We won’t include features just to gain a slightly larger market share. I won’t put (or allow anything to be put into the design by others) things that are there simply to gain more users at both the expense of other players and that are in conflict with the FPs. However, I may also put in some features that some people might not consider fun (like true day/night cycle, slower and different leveling systems, extremely limited fast travel, no PvE leveling/gear grind) because I believe that will make this a better game for our niche. It also means a willingness to take some chances with new design ideas as I’ve done in the past, even if it blows up in our face. Both Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online contained lots of risky game design decisions. Some worked well, some not so well and some flopped big-time but I’ve never been and never will be risk adverse. The game will have some very old school elements but it will also have some new ideas and twists and that means taking chances, big-time. Being totally independent again means I can take these chances the way I did in the past and that feels great.

    Over the next few weeks I’ll be talking about some of the risks we’ll be taking. If the Kickstarter funds, during the game’s development I’m sure the Backers and our team will come up with more new and risky ideas for us to experiment with. Sounds like fun to me. If it sounds like fun to you, I hope we will have your support for Kickstarter. If not, I thank you for taking the time to read this and possibly our other developer blog entries as well.

    Up next: RvR, it’s just not for endgame anymore!
    What exactly are these giant risks they took with DAOC and WAR? They added siege weapons to RvR and a capture the flag system already seen in thousands of other FPS games before, and melded it with a PvE game trying to reduce camping by making people move around in circles. Really. Risk! (TM)

    Public dungeons in WAR? What else was risky about that in the slightest?

  83. #83
    SAS Sonoma Young's Avatar
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    The biggest problem I have with it is for some reason they think a crafting system will replace PvE content.. even the most hard core of PvPers need to bash in some goblin skulls once and a while to get a new mace for their cleric.

  84. #84
    Registered User Tearofsoul's Avatar
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    Non-PVE sounds like Shadowbane/Planetside to me. Cool

  85. #85
    Registered User Kedwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    What exactly are these giant risks they took with DAOC and WAR? They added siege weapons to RvR and a capture the flag system already seen in thousands of other FPS games before, and melded it with a PvE game trying to reduce camping by making people move around in circles. Really. Risk! (TM)

    Public dungeons in WAR? What else was risky about that in the slightest?

    The class system? I mean they had tons of classes and most of them were pretty unique. Tons of skills and variation with positional attacks. Many of those classes had two viable specs, some more. I don't recall anything even close to it prior to DAOC and nothing really since. The three realms with different classes provided shit tons of drama and was really ballsy. Also made balance a nightmare but it added far more than it detracted.

    Pretty much everything in RvR was a first or a first that was really done well. 3 realms, taking keeps, upgrades, guard spam, relics, stealth wars etc.. The metagame of DAOC was amazing. There was the zerg v zerg, fg vs fg and the stealth vs stealth. Best thing about it was they almost never impeded each other.

    They added leveling through PVP as well. First iirc.

    Realm ranks, spell crafting / siege / PC gear (viable player economy since that was the best stuff you could get), hearld stats, darkness falls etc

    Just because some of those feature showed up in some kind of similar way in a FPS its a long way from taking that and implementing it in a way for it to be successful in a MMO.

    I mean every game since that has maybe had one or two aspects of DAOC has been a total failure except maybe GW2. While not a failure by an economic stand point its just a half ass shell of what a real WvW game would be with a sub and more than a handful of people working as a skeleton crew.

    People give MJ shit here and I know that is in fashion but seriously the fucking guy advanced the genre with every game he released. Even if some of the decisions were fucking stupid I'll take anything right now that advances us past 30 hours /played to max in some half ass WoW clone. I have a lot more faith in this than I do in EQN and its PS2 F2P model they'll be pushing. Archage, maybe if you can tolerate the pitfall of waiting 3 months for Koreas last patch? Elder Scrolls, meh but might pull something off? Defiance LOL?

    I'll gladly hop on this wagon as opposed to the others. If it sucks it sucks but until the beta leaks start flowing I'll remain cautiously optimistic.
    Last edited by Kedwyn; 02-07-2013 at 05:58 PM.

  86. #86
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    I do believe DAoC was the first MMO to use a real combat system. Characters were developed with points/builds which were similar to talent points in a lot of ways now I think about it. Also as you increased points you unlocked combat abilities. Those abilities could then be used in rotations/combo chains. When you think that the alternative to this at the time was auto attack in EQ you can see that DAoC was way ahead of its time. Honestly if the game had been PvE based instead of PvP it would of probably ended EQs run early.

    I played the shit out of EQ because at the time I loved raiding and the socializing that went along with it. DAoC always called me back though because as a game it was just far superior. I played EQ the most back then, but I'd say I enjoyed DAoC the most. If my EQ guild had moved over to DAoC I would of never given EQ another thought heh.

  87. #87
    Registered User Tauro's Avatar
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    DAoC metagame aka realmpride&flamewars on forums was really great fun! if they can do it again im in

  88. #88
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedwyn View Post
    Words
    Good points. But guess who was mostly responsible for all of what you spoke about?

    Spoiler: 
    His name wasn't Mark Jacobs. It was Rob Denton


    You can thank Mark for the following:

    1) Releasing 60% complete
    2) 3 months until Relic RvR was even activated, but artifcially bugged by keep doors (His idea since he saw SOE do it with EQ)
    3) Blown funding and wasteful spending which effected 1 and 2 under their "18 month" design schedule pushed by Vivendi.

    The guy, is a schmuck.

    Rob Denton should detatch from EA and form his own kickstarter. Now that I would be excited about for a niche title.

  89. #89
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    I can vouch for the premature release.. we begged him on the beta forums not to release yet, the TL's hadn't even signed off on their classes yet and had threads full of bugs. Mark has a bad habit of not listening to people, something he claims to have rectified this time around. Kind of like that abusive boyfriend that promises not to hit his girlfriend ever again..

    The one thing they have going for them is all they want is a 50k subscription base, in todays MMO market that shouldn't be so hard to hit.. but whether or not they can maintain it is the question.

    I trust Firor over Jacobs, so I will definitely be leaning towards TESO.

    HOWEVER, DAoC's housing option was pretty awesome, and the crafting system was and is still relevant, over 10 years later, in the end game content without any major over hauls or need to increase your skill gained. If they can replicate that stuff they might have found their alternative to PvP to keep some different kinds of players involved in the game.

  90. #90
    Registered User K13R's Avatar
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    Has there ever been an mmo where beta testers gave it the thumbs up to be released..I have done a few beta's never seen a post that said: Games 100% what the fuck are you waiting for go gold already..

  91. #91
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Rift was pretty damn close.

  92. #92
    Registered User Cinge's Avatar
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    I think its fun just watching UT's unimaginable hate and angst for certain developers. Like they stole his childhood, killed his puppy and pissed in his cheerios everyday!

  93. #93
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    He's usually right though. He just jumps off the cliff every 3 or 4 posts.

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    Wow i had a hell of a lot of fun in WAR.

    However the game was a disappointment at the end of the day. For a small group running around killing large unorganized zergs it was fantastic. If you wanted to play the "end game" it was pure shit. The classes were fun, I still love he Warrior Priest implementation of melee healer, but yeah the class balance was bad. As fun as it was the WP was one of those classes where you had to admit certain builds were just insanely OP.

    Spammable big group heal on a short cast time that also purged 2 debuffs each time if traited. It was stupid and it went on like that for a long time.

  95. #95
    Registered User Astral Projection's Avatar
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    Despite the bugs and Mythic Seconds I kinda liked Warhammer and if this is DAOC 2 sounds good to me. Empire-WarriorPriest and Midgard-Healer were the only healing classes I actually enjoyed playing in any MMOG ever.

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    I can't believe this many people even knew Camelot existed.
    Here's hoping for something nearly as good as DAoC.


    We should bring back the VN and Herald.
    Fun times shall be had by all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashel View Post
    Wow i had a hell of a lot of fun in WAR.

    However the game was a disappointment at the end of the day. For a small group running around killing large unorganized zergs it was fantastic. If you wanted to play the "end game" it was pure shit. The classes were fun, I still love he Warrior Priest implementation of melee healer, but yeah the class balance was bad. As fun as it was the WP was one of those classes where you had to admit certain builds were just insanely OP.

    Spammable big group heal on a short cast time that also purged 2 debuffs each time if traited. It was stupid and it went on like that for a long time.
    Didnt you guys play Choas or whatever on release?
    I thought I fought your squid arm guy (maraudar)?
    WAR was alright lvling with the curve but at the end of the game, you pretty much experienced it all.
    Last edited by Crizack; 02-07-2013 at 07:45 PM.

  97. #97
    Registered User pyksel's Avatar
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    Regardless of the bugs that plagued parts of DAOC, for me it remains my most memorable and fun MMO to date. Perhaps it was lack of options and innovation in the market at that time but nothing will replace the nostalgia for me. This is of course different from the nostalgia that EQ provided.

    The active combat system despite the window draggers
    4am relic raids
    Camping the milegate
    Camping Darkness Falls
    Levelling entirely through the BG's
    Climbing keep walls
    2 shotting people with runie bolts
    AoE mentalist dots
    Minute long mezzes
    Realm abilities such as Purge and TWF
    45+ classes
    Smite clerics
    The game pre-Shrouded Isles/pre-ToA

    As far as WAR was concerned, it was fun for what it was worth at the time but quickly lost it's luster once PvDoor and the T4 crashes became more frequent. The game had serious functional issues at the core that many of us in beta tried to get addressed but quickly found ourselves up against a wall. When people like Testpig were providing amazing feedback and alternatives only to find themselves banned from the beta boards, it wasn't a good sign. I still played the shit out of it for as long as I could but eventually the tedium wore me down and I moved on. I certainly miss the pre-EA Mythic days, so maype this is Mark's way of getting back to the small studio he's used to and has more creative control over it but I agree with UT that without Denton I'm not so sure how far this will go.

  98. #98
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    I really believe that the reason why DAoC was such a hit for so many was that they were mesmerized by the large scale PvP. The melee combat system was pure shit as the only styles you could realistically use was your anytime style or maybe your from behind style, at least before they implemented backup styles. I was one shotting casters from far away on my archer without losing stealth for like six months before they nerfed that. Hib casters killed all classes in less time than it took for their uninterruptable nine second stun to wear off. How long did it take them to implement stun resists? A year?

    I think I still hold the world record for getting the most number of kill shots within a few seconds btw. 38. Through a wall of course. No skill involved whatsoever.

    My personal favorite was when they implemented new debuffs on the test server. They made them instant, mana free, no cool down, and had them interrupt all spell casting. It didn't carry over to live, but I always wondered who was behind it. One person? The whole team?

    I would love to see large scale PvP done right, but there is no way in hell the team behind DAoC will do it. They only did one thing right and that was realizing many of us love PvP despite of PvP being unpopular in EQ.

    As for WAR, I only played the trial version also. Me and my buddies all made that dwarf looking melee character and we all spammed that cleave ability. Unstoppable for 99% of the fights it seemed, heh.

  99. #99
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunhill View Post
    As for WAR, I only played the trial version also. Me and my buddies all made that dwarf looking melee character and we all spammed that cleave ability. Unstoppable for 99% of the fights it seemed, heh.
    Yeah I remember that, also there was some healer on the evil side that was basically invulnerable unless like 5 people focused on him. Definite balance issues in that game as well.

  100. #100
    Registered Horse Head Flipmode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegan View Post
    Rift was pretty damn close.
    I'll second that. Damn near flawless beta with minimal bugs.

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