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Thread: The Cops That Suck at Their Job and Go on Paid Leave Thread

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    The Cops That Suck at Their Job and Go on Paid Leave Thread

    Flame on!

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    Rav Scam-Free Zone
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    Local sheriff who was selling drug evidence just got sentenced. Yay!

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    Bittersweet kaosu's Avatar
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1823408.html

    Remember this? Kid killed (under questionable circumstances) himself in the back of a police squad car while handcuffed. Look what I see today:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...e-car/1749201/

    Texas teen removed from a Houston-area high school Wednesday after threatening self-harm shot himself in the head while handcuffed in the back of a moving police car, according to news reports.

    Constable deputies had searched the North Shore student, but he somehow retrieved a "hidden gun" and shot himself in the back of the head, said a spokesman for the Galena Park Independent School District, the Houston Chronicle reports.
    Now, I'm not going to go as far as say the cops shot the kid in the first and obviously not in the second. However, just popped out at me when I saw this headline today and recalled a similar event happening recently.
    Last edited by kaosu; 12-07-2012 at 06:08 AM.

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    That high school kid wasn't searched. They frisked him, but did not search him.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...02c_story.html

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    It sucks but I don't really find the deputies at fault here unless they're lying about it (And it doesn't seem like they are).

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Here's some background info on the woman killed at the end of the 20 minute pursuit through Cleveland. She was such a stand up citizen, HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO HER SHE WAS A GOOD PERSON?!

    http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...revious-arrest

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    The Lion of MMA Predictions Ameraves's Avatar
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    Listen, I doubt anyone was questioning the people in that chase were upstanding citizens in anyway. To be honest, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for anyone that runs from the Cops like that. However, I think some people were questioning the fact that they fired off 120+ rounds at them.

    For me personally, I don't give a shit. It doesn't appear that either of them were contributing members of society in anyway.

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    This is how I imagine the car chase went down


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    The Lion of MMA Predictions Ameraves's Avatar
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    Lolz. That movie looks ridiculous.

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    Gavinrad Sparklerad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Here's some background info on the woman killed at the end of the 20 minute pursuit through Cleveland. She was such a stand up citizen, HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO HER SHE WAS A GOOD PERSON?!

    http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...revious-arrest
    Yes, all crimes should carry the death sentence. That would take care of recidivism!

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    Registered User B_Mizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinrad View Post
    Yes, all crimes should carry the death sentence. That would take care of recidivism!
    Fuck with the bull you get the horns. Something her "mama" evidently didn't teach her well enough growing up. Not her "mama" fault though I'm sure there was probably a lack of time, between abortions, visits to planned parenthood, juvenile arrests and all that very time consuming stuff.

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    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    What did the people in the car do to get themselves shot? Fleeing is obviously not something the cops can legally shoot for.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameraves View Post
    Lolz. That movie looks ridiculous.
    It's too bad the theme of the opening scenes end at the end of the opening scenes. The rest of Mark Whaleberg and Will Ferrel trying to do Stepbrothers in uniform. Only good thing is the exposition of bank fraud at the end, lol

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    Nay. Tmac47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    It's too bad the theme of the opening scenes end at the end of the opening scenes. The rest of Mark Whaleberg and Will Ferrel trying to do Stepbrothers in uniform. Only good thing is the exposition of bank fraud at the end, lol
    All of Will Ferrel's movies run together in my opinion, but I have a lot of friends that will vehemently contest that. I'm all like, "Meh".
    No more unicorns.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B_Mizzle View Post
    Fuck with the bull you get the horns. Something her "mama" evidently didn't teach her well enough growing up. Not her "mama" fault though I'm sure there was probably a lack of time, between abortions, visits to planned parenthood, juvenile arrests and all that very time consuming stuff.
    That's a really good argument for killing the bull.

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Here's a good one from Quebec. Retired and current brass used the drug informant bank account funds to pay themselves bonuses. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...stigation.html

    Three former high-ranking Quebec police officers are the subjects of an investigation into allegations of criminal activity.

    The investigation involves former Quebec provincial police director Richard Deschênes, as well as Jean Audette and Steven Chabot, who were responsible for criminal investigations for the Sûreté du Québec.

    Chabot is retired, but Deschênes and Audette were both relieved of their duties when provincial police head Mario Laprise alerted Public Security Minister Stéphane Bergeron.

    Bergeron told a news conference Wednesday that the allegations came to light when Laprise was doing a routine check of the accounting books, and discovered some unaccounted for money.

    According to the minister, the money was in a fund set up to discreetly pay police informants or cover the cost of drugs in undercover operations.

    He said a high-ranking officer authorized the use of money from that fund to pay someone's retirement bonus. Bergeron would not name the individual who benefited from the alleged bonus.

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    Megistered Jooserockey Eomer's Avatar
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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...g.html?cmp=rss

    Only reason I post this is a) it's kind of funny and b) the guy who did the pissing was the same guy who reached out and touched a Taliban from 2,430 meters.

    Furlong, former sniper with the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, was lauded an international hero for making the longest-ever confirmed sniper kill in combat, at 2,430 metres in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda in 2002 — a record since surpassed.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    When you make a kill at 2.4km it should be legal for you to urinate on people.

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    When you make a kill at 2.4km it should be legal for you to urinate on people.
    ^

    Seriously though, that's nothing worthy of job loss. The story above that is pretty ridiculous though. I hope all three of those idiots get canned and have to pay back the money.

    In other news, here's a (partial) video of a lady getting tased after trespassing and resisting arrest while trying to buy iPhones to resell in Chinerland.
    http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/bosto...c/-/index.html

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    And these fuckers most definitely suck at their job. So close to this world becoming a better place and they had to fuck it up.
    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...,6636059.story

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    Registered User Touraxus's Avatar
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ic-ticket.html

    For all the times we might not like cops, there are times they earn the accolades and don't want to be acknowledged for them.
    I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough

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    Reminder: ACAB

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    Registered User The Noble Savage's Avatar
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    So, this shooting occurred about a year ago, but I guess the video was only just recently released along with the City's decision that the shooting was justified. But the video has been doing the rounds and getting peoples' jimmies rustled. So because I was curious to see what some of you guys thought about it, I'm gonna post it and maybe get some discussion on it.

    Man getting shot and dying:
    Spoiler: 



    I think this is a good video in the sense that while I may not agree I can at least see both sides of the argument in regards to the necessity of the shooting. Detractors maintain that he was attempting to put his hands up, but got caught in the belt so bent over to release himself. I can't say with any certainty what exactly the guy was attempting to do but it didn't look like he was giving up to me. It looked like he jumped out of his car to run, got caught, then tried to get out.

    The cop had been warned by a witness that the victim always carried a knife, so unfortunately he went into the situation expecting one but fails to find one after the shooting. I'm not sure why he gets so close to the suspect if he expected a knife, but he does holster his gun at one point then draws it again when the suspect jumps out. So clearly there was no ill intent.

    Some people are saying the video shows the police officer planting a knife, in the video he clearly borrows one from another officer around 6:57, then places it on the bed of the truck at 7:46. The police report says they found a knife at the scene. I'm unclear if it is the same one the officer puts down, but it doesn't appear to me that he is planting it. Just looks to me like he put it down to get it out of the way as he didn't need it anymore.

    Also, his family is upset that he basically handcuffed a dying man. But he clearly states several times to send the medics, and to get his trauma kit from his trunk. So he wasn't denying treatment, he was just ensuring the suspect was no longer a threat.

    So, personally, I feel that while unfortunate as the suspect doesn't appear to have a knife, I side with the Officer with this one. The suspect should have stayed in the car and kept his hands up. There is no way the cop didn't know he was reaching back into his car for a weapon.

    Agree / Disagree?
    Last edited by The Noble Savage; 12-16-2012 at 04:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Flame on!


    You remind me of tad the lawyer and aychomo the doctor. I think you are just an employee of a pr firm hired to troll the internets to shape public opinion about police officers. I dont think you are a real LEO.

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    Hard Truths Cut Both Ways AladainAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Savage View Post
    So, this shooting occurred about a year ago, but I guess the video was only just recently released along with the City's decision that the shooting was justified. But the video has been doing the rounds and getting peoples' jimmies rustled. So because I was curious to see what some of you guys thought about it, I'm gonna post it and maybe get some discussion on it.
    This video disgusts me. I don't think it was justified in any way. The cop had ample opportunity to protect himself, didn't have to run up to the guy like that, and on top of that, it is fucking chilling that the *slightest* little misstep gets you murdered by the cops. They are here to protect and serve us. That wasn't either.

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    Registered User The Noble Savage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AladainAF View Post
    This video disgusts me. I don't think it was justified in any way. The cop had ample opportunity to protect himself, didn't have to run up to the guy like that, and on top of that, it is fucking chilling that the *slightest* little misstep gets you murdered by the cops. They are here to protect and serve us. That wasn't either.

    Well, I think there were a few things the cop did that he shouldn't have. For starters, charging up to the passenger side of the car when the suspect was reportedly armed seemed like poor judgement to me. That, I feel, created a much more dangerous situation for the police officer, making him more vulnerable and effectively removing any opportunity time to assess the situation if the suspect suddenly charged or as he does in the video reach into his vehicle for a possible weapon.

    Bottom line, cops get shot and killed all the time in seemingly random perfectly safe situations when they let their guard down. This was a known felon out on parole with convictions that include burglary, statutory rape, possession of controlled substances, felony evading arrest, vehicle theft, possession of a stolen vehicle, assault with a deadly weapon and participating in a criminal street gang. I.e. a known threat.

    Do I think the shooting could have been prevented? Sure. Do I think the guy deserved to die because of his actions? No. But he acted poorly and the cop made a snap judgment and potentially overreacted, but there was no way for him not to know he wasn't reaching for a gun.

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    Idk, I kinda think that was unjustified. I understand how hard a cops job is and they make mistakes, but that was definitely wrong. That cop at the very least needs to be disciplined on how not to put themselves in unnecessary danger.

    I think the biggest problem with that is not the first 4 or 5 shots the cop fired but after he was already on the ground he fires again. It's like the cop had no control.

    It's almost comes across as he wanted to shoot the guy. He even screams drop the knife and there is nothing in the guys hand.

    I could see a wrongful death settlement in that family's future.

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    Registered User The Noble Savage's Avatar
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    Yeah, definitely agree with that. Some sort of internal formal disciplinary action with additional training are all warranted for sure and these things may have occurred.

    The number of shots fired does seem rather excessive, but question to someone who might know, maybe Tummy can answer. I remember hearing/reading somewhere that officers are trained to basically unload their clips into someone if they believe the other person has a weapon and their life is in danger rather than shoot to subdue. Is that true? Some googling seems to suggest that is how standard operating procedure, but I couldn't find anything concrete.

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    I don't think written policy matters much in civil wrongful death cases. Not really a lawyer though.

    I know people can be found to not have done anything illegal and still be held accountable financially. That's the reason I'm expecting that city to have to open up it's checkbook. It seems there are enough rustled jimmies to warrant it because if it goes to court, I bet they would end up paying more.

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    Gavinrad Sparklerad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Savage View Post
    Yeah, definitely agree with that. Some sort of internal formal disciplinary action with additional training are all warranted for sure and these things may have occurred.

    The number of shots fired does seem rather excessive, but question to someone who might know, maybe Tummy can answer. I remember hearing/reading somewhere that officers are trained to basically unload their clips into someone if they believe the other person has a weapon and their life is in danger rather than shoot to subdue. Is that true? Some googling seems to suggest that is how standard operating procedure, but I couldn't find anything concrete.
    This has come up before and is basically correct. You don't use a gun to subdue someone, if things have progressed to the point where you're using your gun, you are shooting to kill. Which is something I agree with in principle.

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    Registered User Keriath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinrad View Post
    This has come up before and is basically correct. You don't use a gun to subdue someone, if things have progressed to the point where you're using your gun, you are shooting to kill. Which is something I agree with in principle.
    I agree with this in principle but LEO should also have a little fucking control and common sense, if they pull and have a reason to use there pistol by all means shoot to kill. But after you have shot to kill and the guy is on the ground the extra tap there is stupid. LEO should also have some fire discipline.

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    Hard Truths Cut Both Ways AladainAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Savage View Post
    Bottom line, cops get shot and killed all the time in seemingly random perfectly safe situations when they let their guard down. This was a known felon out on parole with convictions that include burglary, statutory rape, possession of controlled substances, felony evading arrest, vehicle theft, possession of a stolen vehicle, assault with a deadly weapon and participating in a criminal street gang. I.e. a known threat.
    Such a known threat that they only had a single officer watch for him? Don't think he was that much of a threat.

    I'm not saying the guy did something right by looking to grab something in the car, but it was entirely unjustified to unleash a barrage of bullets the moment he twitched and as Flunklestein pointed out, further shooting him while he's on the ground. It's just a completely unjustified handling of the situation and yet another trigger happy cop who can't wait to get his jollies off on killing another legally.

    I agree with Gavinrad too -- if it comes to the point that you have to use your gun, it needs to be to kill. Unfortunately, it seems like it takes very, very, very little for an individual to put a cop in the situation where he feels all is lost and he needs to use his gun. That's wrong.
    Last edited by AladainAF; 12-16-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPDDODD View Post
    You remind me of tad the lawyer and aychomo the doctor. I think you are just an employee of a pr firm hired to troll the internets to shape public opinion about police officers. I dont think you are a real LEO.
    You remind me of this guy.


  34. #34
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Savage View Post
    So, this shooting occurred about a year ago, but I guess the video was only just recently released along with the City's decision that the shooting was justified. But the video has been doing the rounds and getting peoples' jimmies rustled. So because I was curious to see what some of you guys thought about it, I'm gonna post it and maybe get some discussion on it.

    Man getting shot and dying:
    Spoiler: 



    I think this is a good video in the sense that while I may not agree I can at least see both sides of the argument in regards to the necessity of the shooting. Detractors maintain that he was attempting to put his hands up, but got caught in the belt so bent over to release himself. I can't say with any certainty what exactly the guy was attempting to do but it didn't look like he was giving up to me. It looked like he jumped out of his car to run, got caught, then tried to get out.

    The cop had been warned by a witness that the victim always carried a knife, so unfortunately he went into the situation expecting one but fails to find one after the shooting. I'm not sure why he gets so close to the suspect if he expected a knife, but he does holster his gun at one point then draws it again when the suspect jumps out. So clearly there was no ill intent.

    Some people are saying the video shows the police officer planting a knife, in the video he clearly borrows one from another officer around 6:57, then places it on the bed of the truck at 7:46. The police report says they found a knife at the scene. I'm unclear if it is the same one the officer puts down, but it doesn't appear to me that he is planting it. Just looks to me like he put it down to get it out of the way as he didn't need it anymore.

    Also, his family is upset that he basically handcuffed a dying man. But he clearly states several times to send the medics, and to get his trauma kit from his trunk. So he wasn't denying treatment, he was just ensuring the suspect was no longer a threat.

    So, personally, I feel that while unfortunate as the suspect doesn't appear to have a knife, I side with the Officer with this one. The suspect should have stayed in the car and kept his hands up. There is no way the cop didn't know he was reaching back into his car for a weapon.

    Agree / Disagree?
    I read this post and the rest of the thread, then watched the video and did a little additional research on the incident. I'll respond to as many of the points as I can. Valid points all around, except Aladain's first response, which was liberal knee-jerk reaction garbage.

    The scenario was basically what Noble Savage laid out; officers (plural) were looking for Ernie Duenez in connection to a severe domestic incident earlier that day. They know Ernie is a career criminal with a VERY long list of violent prior convictions. They know he likes to carry weapons including guns AND they know he had a knife on him that day. Again to reiterate - there were multiple officers in that neighborhood looking for this guy. The fact that there are 3 additional officers on scene within 60 seconds of Officer Moody's shots fired call confirms that.

    So Officer Moody spots the truck they're looking for, pulls up behind it and sees Ernie start flailing around trying to exit the vehicle rapidly. He's giving verbal commands right from the start and all of them are completely ignored. Ernie tries to get out of the truck and at one point around 0:41-0:42 you can see his right hand on the top of the cab with what looks like a blade. It's very brief and I had to play it back a few times, but that's around the time Officer Moody starts yelling "drop the knife." Given Ernie's history, Moody's commands, and what I see in the video, I'm gonna say it's a safe bet Ernie has a knife.

    Ernie, after completely disregarding all previous commands, seems to disregard the command to drop the knife, so Moody fires his weapon 11 times. Now, skip ahead to the 5 minute mark when Moody is frisking Ernie and the sergeant comes around to ask how many shots were fired. Moody says "somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe 6." This is very common in high stress situations like shootings. The body pumps adrenaline and endorphins and the mind can't process the sensory overload so it shuts down the extraneous, leading to tunnel vision and the inability to accurately recall details of the event, especially right away. It's not cops lying or being deceptive, it's what they honestly believe happened according to their overloaded sensory perceptions. (This is why any agency worth a shit will train their officers using stress courses or present them with divided attention drills in order to help train the brain and body to better cope with high stress situations.)

    Some people might ask what was Ernie's intent with the knife? A better question would be does it really matter at this point? He's a career violent criminal currently out on probation, wanted in connection with a crime of violence earlier that day, attempting (with an open blade in his hand) to either run from police into a house with women inside it or straight up attack the police officer with the knife. He set himself up for failure.

    As for the criticism of Officer Moody's approach to the vehicle, there's nothing to argue there. How else do you take someone into custody? You sure as shit can't do it from the door of your squad car. Part of this job is getting up close and personal and it happens with every arrest. Moot point to argue the approach - the guy was behaving in a manner that clearly indicated fight or flight, not compliance.

    *Edit - Regarding the shoot to kill/wound/excess of shots.

    I wish we had access to the old boards, I'd just c/p my post from there. Police train in "shoot to stop". Shooting to wound is unrealistic and shooting to kill is extremely un-PC. Like I mentioned above, stress, adrenaline, endorphins and sensory overload all diminish fine motor skills, so we train methods that require the least amount of said skills. Shooting center mass requires less targeting time and precision aiming. It also provides for the highest probability of scoring a hit and highest chance of stopping a threat by inducing a disabling wound. If you want more information, Google "hydrostatic shock."
    Last edited by Tummysticks; 12-17-2012 at 02:37 AM.

  35. #35
    Gavinrad Sparklerad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    I read this post and the rest of the thread, then watched the video and did a little additional research on the incident. I'll respond to as many of the points as I can. Valid points all around, except Aladain's first response, which was liberal knee-jerk reaction garbage.
    Aladain is a conservative, sorry to rain on your anti-liberal parade.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    *Edit - Regarding the shoot to kill/wound/excess of shots.

    I wish we had access to the old boards, I'd just c/p my post from there. Police train in "shoot to stop". Shooting to wound is unrealistic and shooting to kill is extremely un-PC. Like I mentioned above, stress, adrenaline, endorphins and sensory overload all diminish fine motor skills, so we train methods that require the least amount of said skills. Shooting center mass requires less targeting time and precision aiming and also provides for the highest chance of stopping a threat by inducing a disabling wound. If you want more information, Google "hydrostatic shock."
    This is basically what I meant when I said shoot to kill earlier. Shooting someone center mass multiple times is shooting to kill, regardless of whether or not you slap a politically correct label like 'shoot to stop' on it, but like I said earlier, if things have progressed to the point where you are firing your gun, you damn well better be trying to kill whoever you're shooting at, otherwise you shouldn't be using a lethal weapon.

    Nothing about this specific incident makes it seem like a bad shoot to me.

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    It looks like he might have had a knife. I didn't see him lunge or make an aggressive action at the police officer. He might have been trying to toss the knife in the truck when he fell forward a bit then again he might not have, we can't know because the cop shot him before giving the guy a chance to drop the knife.

    Pretty much the cop says I'm going to shoot you before he sees any weapon or the guy leave the car, then he says drop the knife which wasn't pointed at him but in his hand on the roof of the truck as he was getting out, then waits like half a second then shoots while the guy is stumbling around stuck on the seatbelt. The guy is a scum bag, but I don't think it's the cops business to summarily execute people like that though.

    So while the cops confusion about the situation might not be criminal and even if you don't doubt the cops good intentions, the situation ended in a way it didn't have too.

    I have a feeling this will be a successful wrongful death case.

  37. #37
    Registered User dangler's Avatar
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    21 foot rule

    can anyone tell me if this is actual policy anywhere? thanks.

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    Gavinrad Sparklerad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangler View Post
    21 foot rule

    can anyone tell me if this is actual policy anywhere? thanks.
    You're linking a random training drill and asking if anyone knows if that drill is 'policy' anywhere, and there is only one cop on this forum.

  39. #39
    Registered User dangler's Avatar
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    hmmm, my mistake. I didnt check my own link closely enough.

    The "21 foot rule" basically states that people "cops" should stay 21 feet away from someone wielding a knife.

    I've heard it talked about a bunch so I'm wondering if it's policy anywhere or more just talk and theory.

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    You can't realistically make something like that an enforceable policy. My agency did mention that statistic in training. They also emphasize "action vs reaction" which states that someone reacting to a threat is always at a disadvantage to the person doing the threat.

    I remember very clearly a demonstration where an instructor sat down in a chair in front of the room. He picked the best shooter in the group and told him to approach from behind as if he were approaching a vehicle on a traffic stop. The guy was instructed to have his gun drawn and pointed at the "driver" and then the instructor showed him the gun in his lap and told him, "I'm going to shoot you." Sure enough as the guy approached with gun drawn, the instructor took a gun from his lap, twisted his body around and fired a shot just before the other guy pulled his trigger.

    The bad guy shot first. In an open classroom with better visibility than a vehicle stop. Against an officer with gun already drawn. After telling the officer he was gonna shoot him.

    Yeah, we have reason to be jumpy and act first.

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    Numbers Numbers's Avatar
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    Pickton Inquiry shows major failure of police. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...en-report.html

    In his conclusion, Oppal blamed years of inadequate and failed police investigations for allowing Pickton to prey undetected for years on women in the sex trade on Vancouver's troubled Downtown Eastside.

    "The police investigations into the missing and murdered women were blatant failures," Oppal said.

    "The critical police failings were manifest in recurring patterns of error that went unchecked and uncorrected over several years.

    "The underlying causes of these failures … were themselves complex and multi-faceted."

    Oppal said those causes included discrimination, a lack of leadership, outdated policing approaches, and a fragmented police structure in the Greater Vancouver region.

  43. #43
    Registered User Zombie Thorne's Avatar
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    The 21 foot rule may or may not be specific policy, but it is widely accepted as accurate in personal defense and protective detail communities.

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    Lol, Earthfell got butthurt I negged his false link >_>

    His link just leads to some faggot ass game that he's trying to promote.
    Last edited by Flunklesnarkin; 12-18-2012 at 09:36 PM.

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    Lol wasnt this from police academy?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ught-tape.html

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    Confirmed Male Dis's Avatar
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    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...-searches?lite

    The lesson here for me at least: "Don't litter in Austin, otherwise you will be anally violated"
    Not a spelling nazi
    Definitions of LOSE on the Web:
    fail to keep or to maintain; cease to have, either physically or in an abstract sense; "She lost her purse when she left it unattended on her seat"

    Definitions of LOOSE on the Web:
    not restrained or confined or attached; "a pocket full of loose bills"; "knocked the ball loose"; "got loose from his attacker"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    ..........
    Posting a picture of yourself engaged in your favorite hobby still doesnt prove you are an LEO.


    If you are a real LEO, your posting style turns people off from any legitimate point you may be trying to make. If you are some public relations firm employee impersonating a cop you have failed, since your posting style is not believable. In either case you have failed. Neither you nor what you post is believable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    You can't realistically make something like that an enforceable policy. My agency did mention that statistic in training. They also emphasize "action vs reaction" which states that someone reacting to a threat is always at a disadvantage to the person doing the threat.

    I remember very clearly a demonstration where an instructor sat down in a chair in front of the room. He picked the best shooter in the group and told him to approach from behind as if he were approaching a vehicle on a traffic stop. The guy was instructed to have his gun drawn and pointed at the "driver" and then the instructor showed him the gun in his lap and told him, "I'm going to shoot you." Sure enough as the guy approached with gun drawn, the instructor took a gun from his lap, twisted his body around and fired a shot just before the other guy pulled his trigger.

    The bad guy shot first. In an open classroom with better visibility than a vehicle stop. Against an officer with gun already drawn. After telling the officer he was gonna shoot him.

    Yeah, we have reason to be jumpy and act first.

    Which Dick Tracy novel did you get that story from? Just how naive do you think we all are?

  50. #50
    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Thinking some guy who claims to be a law enforcement officer on the internet is bullshitting you is normal.

    Thinking he's bullshitting you because he's some kind of federal PR machine for law enforcement is fucking crazy.

  51. #51
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPDDODD View Post
    Which Dick Tracy novel did you get that story from? Just how naive do you think we all are?
    3 posts into the thread and you're already approaching Araysar/Antony levels of stupid. Might be some sort of record. Troll elsewhere, you have nothing to contribute here.

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    Think about it. I dont just randomly post. I actually admire and respect ethical law enforcement personnel. I think how you do what you do does a disservice to them.

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    You know nothing about me or how I do my job, and since you clearly take issue with reasonable, logically constructed posts that provide insight into how and why LE operates the way it does, feel free to stay out of this thread.

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    Continue living in the land of lack of insight where you grade your own personal performance evaluation.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    You know nothing about me or how I do my job, and since you clearly take issue with reasonable, logically constructed posts that provide insight into how and why LE operates the way it does, feel free to stay out of this thread.
    Right, because everyone has totally forgotten about your pile of troll posts and use of poison bait over at the old place.

    Fuck. You.

  56. #56
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Hooray justice. Officer suspended for pulling a woman from a ditch by her hair. Chief suspends him 15 days without pay for "conduct unbecoming". Dash cam exonerates him and he wins his appeal to get paid for those days.

    Winning his appeal.
    http://www.wafb.com/story/20392893/s...lling-incident

    Dash cam showing the woman hitting him.
    http://www.wafb.com/story/18237379/i-team-sgt-shillings

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    That dash cam is so grainy and off focus I'm not sure how you can claim it shows anything.

    Regardless of whether the woman punched him or not, I doubt there is a pressing need to subdue somebody in a ditch by pulling them by their hair like that especially when she is just sitting there.


    This is why people have a hard time thinking you are objective and not some "cops are always right" troll.

    How does him possibly getting hit exonerate the cop of pulling her hair and arresting her like that?

  58. #58
    Confirmed Male Dis's Avatar
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    First off, I am not even sure the hair pulling incident is worth getting in a tiff about. Who the fuck cares, did I miss something about how she was traumatically injured because of this? Secondly, she threw a punch or punches at the officer, but is excessive force justified if she is complaint after the fact? Not saying she was in this incident, just in general. Either way, the "no fucks given" meter is high on this incident.
    Not a spelling nazi
    Definitions of LOSE on the Web:
    fail to keep or to maintain; cease to have, either physically or in an abstract sense; "She lost her purse when she left it unattended on her seat"

    Definitions of LOOSE on the Web:
    not restrained or confined or attached; "a pocket full of loose bills"; "knocked the ball loose"; "got loose from his attacker"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dis View Post
    First off, I am not even sure the hair pulling incident is worth getting in a tiff about. Who the fuck cares, did I miss something about how she was traumatically injured because of this? Secondly, she threw a punch or punches at the officer, but is excessive force justified if she is complaint after the fact? Not saying she was in this incident, just in general. Either way, the "no fucks given" meter is high on this incident.
    This is pretty much my opinion of the matter. I was more wondering why Tummysticks feels this is some sort of evidence of bias against cops and justice now being served.

    He seems to focus so much on this anti-cop bias that he see's it everywhere even when it doesn't exist in a situation such as this. Dude pulled chick from ditch by hair, his boss said that was kinda unnecessary and suspended him.

    He fights the accusation (and I'm not against anybody defending themself) and the police switch to his side based on a more detailed analysis. Nothing seems unreasonable about that in of itself.

    Idk all the facts of the case, but I doubt this is the best one to play the "police victimhood" card lol.

  60. #60
    Gavinrad Sparklerad's Avatar
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    Tummy is just bored and desperate for attention since this thread is so dead, so he decided to go fishing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinrad View Post
    Tummy is just bored and desperate for attention since this thread is so dead, so he decided to go fishing.
    It worked
    Not a spelling nazi
    Definitions of LOSE on the Web:
    fail to keep or to maintain; cease to have, either physically or in an abstract sense; "She lost her purse when she left it unattended on her seat"

    Definitions of LOOSE on the Web:
    not restrained or confined or attached; "a pocket full of loose bills"; "knocked the ball loose"; "got loose from his attacker"


    Dispair - Community - Diablo III
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  62. #62
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dis View Post
    It worked
    .

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    A class-action lawsuit has been filed against a former Utah Highway Patrol trooper and her superiors alleging that she filed false DUI charges during her career.
    40 people claiming Steed wrongfully arrested them on DUI or drug charges.
    Steed admitted that, while she was administering a blood-alcohol test on Theron Alexander March 2010, she removed her microphone in order to perform an unauthorized action.
    Steed was named Utah Highway Patrol's "Trooper of the Year" in 2007 for making more than 200 DUI arrests
    It's shameful that citizens have no course of action during unlawful arrests. You think it's unlawful; you get your ass tased.

    Sickens me that this abuse is rampant and continues to happen, and we're powerless to curb and prevent it.

    http://gma.yahoo.com/former-cop-accu...opstories.html

  64. #64
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Good thing that cop has the union to protect her.

  65. #65
    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Word View Post
    It's shameful that citizens have no course of action during unlawful arrests. You think it's unlawful; you get your ass tased.

    Sickens me that this abuse is rampant and continues to happen, and we're powerless to curb and prevent it.

    http://gma.yahoo.com/former-cop-accu...opstories.html
    Shameful? No. Sometimes unfortunate? Sure.

    Without the threat of an ass kicking, disorderly/resist charge, arrests would be much more problematic because more morons would resist.

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    http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...186068242.html

    The cop who was previously caught sleeping in his patrol car last summer is in the news again for another unusual circumstance.

    Trenton Police Officer Richard Takach lost his fully loaded Glock semi-automatic handgun in Trenton's West Precinct parking lot around 3 a.m. on Monday, according to his attorney Stuart Alterman.

  67. #67
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    Shameful? No. Sometimes unfortunate? Sure.

    Without the threat of an ass kicking, disorderly/resist charge, arrests would be much more problematic because more morons would resist.
    And we wouldn't want people resisting unlawful arrests. Next they'll start thinking they have rights. Seriously, you couldn't invent a better argument for a heavily armed populace.

  68. #68
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    And we wouldn't want people resisting unlawful arrests. Next they'll start thinking they have rights. Seriously, you couldn't invent a better argument for a heavily armed populace.
    The problem with that line of rationale is that fully half the people I arrest think they're being unlawfully arrested. The most recent example would be the guy caught in the act of raping a 16 year old girl by other people in the house. He proceeded to fight those witnesses, flee the house, fight the five police officers that showed up, and then fight those officers again at the station. When I transported him to the commissioner (the person who decides to set bond or release the accused on their own recognizance) he was telling me we arrested him illegally and his case would be thrown out because nobody ever read him his rights. Mind you this upstanding citizen didn't even know what his rights were when I asked, but he was damn certain he was unlawfully arrested and would be released.

    The look on his face when the commissioner set his bond at $750,000 was absolutely priceless.

  69. #69
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    The problem with that line of rationale is that fully half the people I arrest think they're being unlawfully arrested. The most recent example would be the guy caught in the act of raping a 16 year old girl by other people in the house. He proceeded to fight those witnesses, flee the house, fight the five police officers that showed up, and then fight those officers again at the station. When I transported him to the commissioner (the person who decides to set bond or release the accused on their own recognizance) he was telling me we arrested him illegally and his case would be thrown out because nobody ever read him his rights. Mind you this upstanding citizen didn't even know what his rights were when I asked, but he was damn certain he was unlawfully arrested and would be released.

    The look on his face when the commissioner set his bond at $750,000 was absolutely priceless.
    So why can't resisting arrest only apply when the arrest is actuallly lawful?

  70. #70
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    That high school kid wasn't searched. They frisked him, but did not search him.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...02c_story.html
    Holy fuck I can't believe I missed this gem before. Are you seriously a cop who doesn't think a frisk is a search?

  71. #71
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    It does only apply when the arrest is lawful. Bear in mind though, that resistance can be passive or active. Making me drag your happy ass to the car because you were "unlawfully arrested" after being arrested and cuffed is grounds for a resisting charge.

  72. #72
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Holy fuck I can't believe I missed this gem before. Are you seriously a cop who doesn't think a frisk is a search?
    Are you seriously one of those know it all douchenozzles who doesn't know the difference between a frisk and a search?

    Where's Cad when I need him?
    Last edited by Tummysticks; 01-12-2013 at 06:44 PM.

  73. #73
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Frisking (also called a patdown or pat down) is a search
    lawl

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    When a search for weapons is also authorized, the procedure is known as a stop and frisk.

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    Boston Fire Dept - Chief is on vacation, senior man is named Acting Chief.
    Said acting Chief then "injuries himself" on the job.
    Gets paid as a "Chief" instead of his actual paygrade (which would be lower) while on paid vacation for recovery.
    Happens a lot.

  76. #76
    Registered User Antarius's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on the circumstances... roof collapses on guy while he's inside a burning building? Sure, take the extra 800 dollars in pay difference... how much money are we really talking about synthetics? Guy skips out on work for 6 months because he stubbed his tow? You haven't given us enough info to be judgmental.

  77. #77
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Surveillance video of the ambush. http://kstp.com/article/stories/s2889715.shtml
    Video interview with the officers involved. http://kstp.com/article/stories/s2889738.shtml

    Warriors.

  78. #78
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Bear in mind though, that resistance can be passive or active. Making me drag your happy ass to the car because you were "unlawfully arrested" after being arrested and cuffed is grounds for a resisting charge.
    Even if the original arrest is unlawful?

  79. #79
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    lawl
    Quote Originally Posted by clerica View Post
    When a search for weapons is also authorized, the procedure is known as a stop and frisk.
    Yeah I mean this isn't even a fucking conversation. What the fuck is the point of a frisk if not to search the person being frisked? The fact that this dude seems to be on the upper side of the IQ bell curve for cops is goddamn frightening.

  80. #80
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Yeah I mean this isn't even a fucking conversation. What the fuck is the point of a frisk if not to search the person being frisked? The fact that this dude seems to be on the upper side of the IQ bell curve for cops is goddamn frightening.
    Are you law enforcement? Are you a lawyer who works on criminal cases? Do you have any kind of legal training at all? I ask because anyone who does knows being frisked is not the same as being searched. On the street when my partner asks me if a suspect has been searched, my answer would be "no I just frisked him." In court, when the defense attorney asks me if I searched his client, my answer would be "no I just frisked him."

    A frisk is much less invasive than a search and the courts recognize them to be two separate things.

  81. #81
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Are you law enforcement? Are you a lawyer who works on criminal cases? Do you have any kind of legal training at all? I ask because anyone who does knows being frisked is not the same as being searched. On the street when my partner asks me if a suspect has been searched, my answer would be "no I just frisked him." In court, when the defense attorney asks me if I searched his client, my answer would be "no I just frisked him."

    A frisk is much less invasive than a search and the courts recognize them to be two separate things.
    A frisk is a search. Whatever stupid jargony definition of "search" you're using is not interesting to me.

  82. #82
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Frankly, the whole thing sounds like a deliberate attempt to skirt the fourth amendment.

  83. #83
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Also, I don't give a shit about Terry v. Ohio. The Supreme Court failed to uphold a reasonable standard of justice and common sense? WEIRD.

  84. #84
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Also, I don't give a shit about Terry v. Ohio. The Supreme Court failed to uphold a reasonable standard of justice and common sense? WEIRD.
    So then...are you actually mad at police who are just doing their jobs by the rules or are you angry with the system in general?

  85. #85
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    Are you seriously going to make me Godwin this damn thread? Jesus you are stupid.

  86. #86
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    I'm not making you do anything, certainly not "Godwin-ing", whatever that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    So then...are you actually mad at police who are just doing their jobs by the rules or are you angry with the system in general?
    I didn't say anything about "mad." My state of mind has nothing to do with whether or not a frisk is just another kind of search that the supreme court (in its infinite wisdom) has decided the fourth amendment doesn't apply to. If you want my opinion on cops generally, I think they support a system of laws which are about 90% garbage that are given rhetorical cover by the other 10% (and that, consequently they end up doing more harm than good). Moreover, while I can appreciate the "I'm just following the rules" argument insofar as you have a job to do and I understand the pressures that come with the metrics that are used to determine raises/promotions, the fact is just because the law allows it doesn't mean you should do it from an ethical or civic standpoint. In my experience, the personality type that's attracted to that kind of position is precisely the sort that should never ever be given power over other people, much less the general populace (again, that's not a universal). Ultimately, the virtue of your occupation is linked inseparably to the virtue of that system and maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I don't really see that going in the right direction between now and the time of my death/the death of that system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antarius View Post
    I guess it depends on the circumstances... roof collapses on guy while he's inside a burning building? Sure, take the extra 800 dollars in pay difference... how much money are we really talking about synthetics? Guy skips out on work for 6 months because he stubbed his tow? You haven't given us enough info to be judgmental.
    An acting Chief isn't normally running into situation where he's having a roof collapse on him.
    My father has been with the BFD for 33 years, I have heard and see all the stories of the crookedness that occurs within the civil service jobs. Both Police and Fire.
    I can't comment as too how much money we're talking, because I honestly don't know, but I do know the request for PTO do to injuries is usually a bullshit excuse. When you're that far enough into the rank structure, you should have plenty of time saved up for PTO for to injuries occurred on the job. And claiming something such as "smoke inhalation" won't be looked at twice. The point is, you're being paid on your PTO for a rank you don't actually have.
    Some people will even retire out while on PTO and collect their pension while maintaining that temporary "acting" rank.
    It's a pretty messed up system.

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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...isconduct.html

    The head of the RCMP admitted that Canada’s national police force neglected to keep tabs on hundreds of cases of serious misconduct committed by Mounties across the country for years.

    Commissioner Bob Paulson acknowledged that an access to information request by CBC News inadvertently revealed that not even senior leaders in the RCMP could say with confidence whether incidents of misconduct that include assaults, impaired driving and fraud were a problem in the force.

    The discovery that no one within the RCMP had a comprehensive list of Mounties who’d been disciplined, became obvious after CBC News asked for basic data between 2005 and 2008 that included offences and findings by internal adjudications boards.

  90. #90
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    I didn't say anything about "mad." My state of mind has nothing to do with whether or not a frisk is just another kind of search that the supreme court (in its infinite wisdom) has decided the fourth amendment doesn't apply to. If you want my opinion on cops generally, I think they support a system of laws which are about 90% garbage that are given rhetorical cover by the other 10% (and that, consequently they end up doing more harm than good). Moreover, while I can appreciate the "I'm just following the rules" argument insofar as you have a job to do and I understand the pressures that come with the metrics that are used to determine raises/promotions, the fact is just because the law allows it doesn't mean you should do it from an ethical or civic standpoint. In my experience, the personality type that's attracted to that kind of position is precisely the sort that should never ever be given power over other people, much less the general populace (again, that's not a universal). Ultimately, the virtue of your occupation is linked inseparably to the virtue of that system and maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I don't really see that going in the right direction between now and the time of my death/the death of that system.
    Not that I'm a big fan of Tummysticks, but this is just stupid. Take your anti-rules "ethics" bullshit elsewhere. If you want cops to follow certain rules... in your mind, "ethical" rules, then make those the actual fucking rules. Oh wait, those are impractical and cannot be enforced? Right.

  91. #91
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    A frisk is a search. Whatever stupid jargony definition of "search" you're using is not interesting to me.
    A stop & frisk in the context of Terry is a search, but a search limited to looking for large weapon-shaped objects and the stated purpose is to ensure officer safety. This is allowed with reasonable suspicion because officer safety was valued above absolute immunity from search under certain circumstances.

    If, for example, during a Terry stop, an officer found a rolled up joint in a pocket he was frisking for weapons, it would be inadmissible. Pistols, on the other hand...

    You may not like it, I don't give a fuck. Take it up with the Supremes.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    Not that I'm a big fan of Tummysticks, but this is just stupid. Take your anti-rules "ethics" bullshit elsewhere. If you want cops to follow certain rules... in your mind, "ethical" rules, then make those the actual fucking rules.
    Are you retarded? Do you seriously not grasp the distinction between legality and ethics? How far do you take this moronic line of thought? If it were legal for cops to execute babies, would you be of the opinion that that was something they ought to do? How the fuck do you survive to adulthood being this fucking dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    Oh wait, those are impractical and cannot be enforced? Right.
    What the fuck are you talking about, mouthbreather?

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    A stop & frisk in the context of Terry is a search, but a search limited to looking for large weapon-shaped objects and the stated purpose is to ensure officer safety. This is allowed with reasonable suspicion because officer safety was valued above absolute immunity from search under certain circumstances.

    If, for example, during a Terry stop, an officer found a rolled up joint in a pocket he was frisking for weapons, it would be inadmissible. Pistols, on the other hand...

    You may not like it, I don't give a fuck. Take it up with the Supremes.
    I don't give a fuck about you not giving a fuck. That doesn't make it any less retardo.

  94. #94
    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    Man, here I was thinking we'd managed to lose the Araysar levels of stupid in the move.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Man, here I was thinking we'd managed to lose the Araysar levels of stupid in the move.
    That's a copout and you know it.

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    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Are you retarded? Do you seriously not grasp the distinction between legality and ethics? How far do you take this moronic line of thought? If it were legal for cops to execute babies, would you be of the opinion that that was something they ought to do? How the fuck do you survive to adulthood being this fucking dumb?
    There's no laws regarding ethics. If you don't like their ethics, go cry to your mom about it. The only thing that can be enforced is the legal aspect. If you want the rules changed, propose some. If you just want to cry, eat shit.

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    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    There's no laws regarding ethics.
    That's what I'm saying you fucking retard.

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    needs an adult Tummysticks's Avatar
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    I see what you did there.

    I get the base of your argument. I really do. Who doesn't imagine being king for a day and setting the world up to run based on their own personal code of ethics? Where you go wrong is with the assumption that the current system is flat out wrong and unethical because it doesn't agree with your warped sense of inalienable right to do whatever the fuck you want. For society to maintain, there has to be compromise. Terry v Ohio was exactly that, and if you would for a moment try to put yourself in a police officer's shoes, you'd understand it's a very necessary compromise that very narrowly favors the government. I think it's reasonable to be able to go home to my family at the end of the day, and that's what Terry v Ohio helps me do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    There's no laws regarding ethics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    That's what I'm saying you fucking retard.
    THIS is what makes you Araysar levels of stupid. You can't legislate ethics.
    Last edited by Tummysticks; 01-14-2013 at 04:24 PM.

  99. #99
    Registered User Mikhail Bakunin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Who doesn't imagine being king for a day and setting the world up to run based on their own personal code of ethics?
    It would only be my "personal" code of ethics if I couldn't defend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    Where you go wrong is with the assumption that the current system is flat out wrong and unethical because it doesn't agree with your warped sense of inalienable right to do whatever the fuck you want.
    My "sense" is that any reasonable ethical standard implies that my and everyone else's right to do whatever the fuck we want can only be imposed upon with sufficient justification (which is not equivalent to "we have the guns/tazers/tear gas so what we say is justified").

    Quote Originally Posted by Tummysticks View Post
    For society to maintain, there has to be compromise. Terry v Ohio was exactly that, and if you would for a moment try to put yourself in a police officer's shoes, you'd understand it's a very necessary compromise that very narrowly favors the government. I think it's reasonable to be able to go home to my family at the end of the day, and that's what Terry v Ohio helps me do.
    As a justification, that certainly passes the fuzzy-wuzzies test but it fails the test of considering the alternatives. There are many alterations to the law that would significantly reduce the danger to police (and the need for them, or at least for so many) in the first place.

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    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhail Bakunin View Post
    Are you retarded? Do you seriously not grasp the distinction between legality and ethics? How far do you take this moronic line of thought? If it were legal for cops to execute babies, would you be of the opinion that that was something they ought to do? How the fuck do you survive to adulthood being this fucking dumb?

    What the fuck are you talking about, mouthbreather?

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