lol this shit again.
We had a thread for this previously on foh~ Not really sure if this should be in general or technology, this seems as good a place as any.
Bitcoins just hit $17.40 US today passing their 2012 high of $16. Theres now a few thousand vendors taking bitcoins as payment, as well as word press now accepting them. It's now possible to have a bank account in the EU (France specifically) backed by bitcoins and places like Iran have citizens bank their money away in bitcoins as a way of protecting them against inflation. The currency by all accounts seems to be taking off with 2013 being a huge year for it.
Next-gen mining hardware (ASICs) is starting to ship with Avalon shipping a couple units of their 66Gigahash, but who knows when the rest will ship. Mid-Feb should see all the different butterfly labs hardware shipping to initial pre-orders. I have myself setup to get a Single SC (60Gigahashs). Over the next couple months this is going to be insanely disruptive to coin generation and effectively destroy GPU mining.
Litecoins are also taking off as well as an alternative to bitcoins, and I imagine it'll get even more people backing it as GPU mining will still be profitable. (ASIC miners can't do the math for litecoin generation).
It's definitely interesting times ahead in terms of online currencies.
I suppose I could do some research and find out, but this just doesn't make much sense to me. Doesn't there have to be someone paying standard currency for all these "number crunches"? I mean, I thought the theory was that they were using excess computing power to solve various problems that would have taken far too much time on some other, more important system. So someone, somewhere needs these problems solved. Are they the ones paying in real dollars, and bitcoin generators are just benefiting through a transferal system? It can't be that people are just running random problems through their systems, because that would essentially be creating money out of nothing, someone somewhere has to need them and pay for them. Right?
Given that I don't understand it at all, obviously...why don't they just pay normal money? I mean, I get that this has become the new way to buy weed online and shit, but that couldn't have been the original intent. Someone please explain to me how this makes sense as a currency vs. just giving you $.03 for X cycles, for example. If it is truly that profitable you know even this will eventually get taxed as income, and nothing is truly anonymous if they want to start cracking down on the weed, it is just under the radar for now is all.
Or am I horribly misinformed about how this works? I have no intention of jumping on the bandwagon (I would have done it last year when everyone was doing it if I had any inclination), just curious because it makes no sense to me at all.
One thing it's missing is that the act of mining coins, also doubles as the verification for all transactions within the network. So it's not all "for nothing". In terms of taxing them, I believe that all exchanges require you to verify your information to cash out your coins, and in doing so would report it as income to your respective government. So theres no way to evade taxes here unless you shelter all your money in bitcoins, which would limit what you can do with them. Things like the silk road (the drug site) are a small part of the bitcoin enconomy, with speculation, gambling and transferring money being the bigger uses. Right now to transfer money from Canadian Dollars to some other nation in a different currency it's pretty expensive through something like western union, but it's a lot cheaper to send it via bitcoins.
Ok, I read that, but it still doesn't fully make sense to me. And I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I genuinely have never understood how this made any sense.
If I have this straight, essentially someone somewhere decided that there were going to be a certain number of bitcoins in the world (a quadrillion?). They just made them up out of thin air (I understand that paper money is basically made up too, so I'm not disparaging it). At first everyone was understandably cautious about shit made up out of thin air, but eventually someone gave pizzas in exchange for them, which lead to more people taking them, and more, etc. And so, in theory, everyone could simply stop accepting them once again and they would be worth nothing (the dollar could do the same obviously, but momentum is in its favor), because they don't actually represent anything beyond an arbitrary task completion.
So let me see if I have that part right. The "puzzle solving" isn't actually helping someone somewhere with dollars save any of those dollars, like I thought it was. It is simply an artificial barrier to gaining the bitcoins, determined by some arbitrary means. Like, if I could earn a dollar simply by writing my name on the blackboard one hundred times. If I could get faster at it, I could earn that dollar faster, and if I could automate it with a machine, I could get it even faster. But no one is actually gaining anything by me writing my name a hundred times, it is just something to slow down the acquisition of bitcoins so someone can't just walk up and ask for them. Or more accurately I suppose, someone is handing me a list of every single bitcoin transaction and asking me to hand write it on the blackboard to ensure the math is correct, as a check, as well as writing my name a hundred times.
Is that more or less accurate?
Pretty much, the algorithm that generates bitcoins limits it to generating a block every 10mins (a block is currently 25 coins+transaction fees) and will self adjust it's difficulty after 2016 blocks to ensure it stays at that rate. Every time a block is generated all the transaction associated with that block are verified, it usually takes 6 blocks (60mins) to ensure that a transaction was successful. It does this to prevent double spends, or where someone tries to send the same bitcoin to more one recipient. The reward for solving a block is halved every four years or 210,000 blocks. Eventually we'll get down to 0 coins as the reward, with the only the benefit to mining being the transaction fees. Since every coin is divisible down to 8 decimal points, there is tons of head room for the price of a single coin to rise to while still providing a great deal of liquidity even while people might potentially hoard them and never spend.
What isn't clear to me is why they wouldn't start shifting the decimal point. It's a bitch to work with 0.01 bitcoints, for example, as a commonly used currency - and it's only going to get worse with time as the artificial constraint (max number of bitcoins) start to bind. It really doesn't matter if you have 10 bitcoins or 1000 new bitcoins - that's not inflation in any meaningful sense of the term.
It seems to me that someone missed this concept and thought large numbers = inflation, when it's rather the change in numbers that signifies a problem. The limit, by the way, may also encourage people to hoard bitcoins, when they really should want a lot of people to spend a lot of bitcoins so the currency can gain traction.
I think bitcoins have their problems, but overall the idea of a cryptocurrency seems pretty good. The internet is key to free speech, but that only gets you so far if you're capital movements are limited. With governments around the world ever more closely regulating financial systems, there may be a time when we're glad to have this underground currency. Think about sites like wikileaks, for example... being able to anonymously donate to them (and for them to be able to accept it without relying on credit card companies) can be a huge boon to transparency. How many people would not donate to such an organization for fear of being linked to them in some database?
I wouldn't put my retirement savings in it, of course, but I'm also not from a country likely to be afflicted by civil war, authoritarian regimes, or a corrupt central bank. In many parts of the world, this may not be the worst option.
What capacity does bitcoins have for increasing the supply dramatically in case its use becomes more common?
makes me wonder how many government mainframes have dark corners were admins are secretly mining on the taxpayer dime.
Trying to mine for bitcoins on CPU's won't even pay for 20% of the power they'd use. These days with FPGAs everywhere and the ASICs around the corner, it's tough to cover the cost of electricity even mining with the best btc/W cards available. So unless that mainframe is running AMD videocards from the last 3 generations, it won't do you much good.
Actually, if you have access to a top 50 supercomputer, you can make anywhere between 50k to half a mil a month but I'm pretty sure those weren't build to be kept idle not to mention justifying the 0.5-10 MW of power that they use.
Any details on ASICs? I understand that is hardware especially designing for one purpose (in this case bitcoin mining)?
If so, what price range are we talking here? Commercially available or built by enthusiasts?
I don't see it as a way of making money, but I very much like the idea of bitcoins. Maybe a small buy-in wouldn't be a bad idea just to stay interested in following developments.
Given the current price of a bitcoin, though, I can't help but think "bubble." But that's ok, a bitcoin doesn't have to be worth $30 for the currency to serve a purpose. In fact, the USD exchange rate doesn't seem all that relevant, as long as it can reach some kind of relatively-stable exchange rate in the near future.
edit: ok, some googling returns this thing for $150: http://products.butterflylabs.com/ho...oin-miner.html
It's about 100 times as fast as my GPU... yeah. There's one about 7 as fast for 4x the cost. Probably a good deal for people way more serious about this than me.
Last edited by Soriak; 03-04-2013 at 04:22 AM.
Processing Power: 4.5 GH/s (+/- 10% running variance) with the power consumption ofpproximately 4.5 Watt??
Thats very low cost for a very high processing power.. Its like getting lambo with 1000hp that makes 1 gl/62miles
When you get right down to it, all legit money is backed by the promise of goods and the threat of violence. Cybermoney is only halfway there.
The entire thing just seems like a terrible idea unless it's backed by some authority with access to guns. And the guys with that kind of authority, they issue their own money.
Cyber-barter. Company scrip. Nothing wrong with it I guess. Have fun stormin' the castle.
But it's a decentralized system, no one can invade you and take your bitcoins or shutdown the network in any way (think TOR). Guess they could blow a few hundred million $ to rape the price but it's no guarantee that it won't get back up.
Anyone you order from now and you're looking at a couple months before you're receive a product, so if you were going to invest in some hardware you'd want the best Gigahash/Watt which is the Butterfly labs product line at roughly 1Gigahash/Watt. By the time you'd get it you're looking at 7-8 months before you'd see a return on your money though, vs the preorder people who are looking at weeks/days to pay it back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States (they actually exist around the world)
All you need is people willing to give up real world (or digital) goods or services in exchange for bitcoins. Sure, one can wonder why on earth they would... but both legal hurdles (e.g. online gambling) and high transaction costs for credit card processing (think micro payments) could make it sensible.
I've started mining at home, just to see how long it'll take me to mine 1 BTC. So far, about 0.0075 BTC in ~6h. Seems like it would take forever to accumulate any kind of reasonable amount of currency this way, so there must be another way (or this is just a scale thing).
The last time it was 30$, it dropped to ~16-18 when the bubble did burst and it went down to 2$ after the mtgox hack when for a week or so no one could trade. I had almost 3 Ghash running about 2 years ago, sold everything when it dropped under 5$ ... if only I knew it was gonna go like this.
I don't dare mine at work. I figure the server at home is on anyway, so I might as well let it run, but yeah, I wonder how much it's costing me to do so...
Edit: It's genuinely disappointing how horrible an nVidia Quadro 2000 is at mining. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm only getting something like 32 mh/s.
Last edited by Alkorin; 03-06-2013 at 03:02 PM.
I'd say if you really want to get into mining, look at asic rather than video cards. Avalon is the only one that has shipped any units so far, BFL is suppose to shipping soon or buy shares in ASICminer, they're doing about 4 th/s at btcguild pool
I'll see how the first BTC works out. I might be able to convince her that I can make back what I'm going to spend on the ASIC box in time.
I'd buy 10 ASIC's right now if I'd get them in a week or two. With the backorders & shit, if you order one now you'll be lucky to get it in a few months and who knows what will happen until then.
With an overclocked 7970 you can get around 600-650 Mhash/sec, or about 2 bitcoins / month. The card will use 250-300 W/hour so there won't much left after you cover the electricity cost.
Might try that. With what I have right now, I'm only doing an aggregate of ~300 Mh/s, so there's really very little point in this unless I want to invest some money, I guess.
Edit: I ordered a Jalapeno. We'll see when it gets here.
Last edited by Alkorin; 03-06-2013 at 06:55 PM.
Meh. I emailed them and told them the order was placed in error. Hopefully they'll just cancel it since it's still processing.
Too much back and forth with this shit, I'm not gonna bother. I won't buy a video card just to mine BTC, and if ordering an inexpensive ASIC makes no sense, then forget it. This isn't for me.
Today is another great comedy day for Bitcoin though! I can't believe how much money people are throwing at $50 bitcoins. The crash is coming, and it will be glorious.
Well, I managed to mine 0.015 BTC total. I don't dare figure out how much money I spent on electricity doing that. =D
Just to be clear though, at the rate bitcoins have shot up 45$/coin it's priced too high, but there is definitely a lot of room for positive growth in the coming months after the price smooths out from this bubble.
Edit: I also suggest doing the math yourself and look at worst case scenarios and whether or not you think it's worth it to you. http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/
Last edited by Tripamang; 03-06-2013 at 10:00 PM.
Last edited by Tea; 03-06-2013 at 10:35 PM.
Refund received. Too speculative for my tastes, especially given the uncertainty of the status of the market once the systems actually ship. If I could have the box tomorrow, I'd be all over it. 6 months is a stretch, and that's not even for sure, so... forget it.
At least they didn't argue, so, points for them. If I do buy a miner ASIC, it'll be from them.
I think tea was right at least about the price. Current price is $35, high today was $49. That's a hell of a drop.
It's not rocket science. Shit is following standard curves almost exactly. We've hit the bull trap now but not the bottom. Holy fuck, someone just bought $15k worth of fake money at $39.5 per.
edit: And another 20k at $39.6. Fuck.
Last edited by Tea; 03-07-2013 at 01:33 AM.
Bought a bit a week or so ago mostly just to see what the transaction process for buying BTC was like, sold last night, perfect timing. Probably staying out until the inevitable crash.
Kind of fascinating to watch this whole process though.
I'm going to disagree with bitcoins never gaining widespread acceptance, and theres no point in us debating it because it's all speculation on where it's going to end up anyways. There has never been a currency/commodity that has the properties of bitcoin, regardless of whether it explodes into the mainstream it's going to change the way currencies are viewed and evolve for the better.
Tral, where have you been buying/selling your coins?
Last edited by darkko; 03-07-2013 at 08:46 PM.
Coinbase. The longass delay on transactions clearing sucks, but it was incredibly easy to set up
I think the current price says enough about the severity of that problem. They caught it early and they dealt with it. Welcome to last week.
edit : For those that don't know the details they had to revert some transactions from a 2h time frame. The price took a dip for a few hours before going back to 47$.
Last edited by gogusrl; 03-15-2013 at 10:25 PM.
The pool I mine at btcguild lost 1254 coins from the hot wallet of the pool because of the issue. 16 users got those coins, so far only one user has returned those I'll gotten coins. The guy that ran the pool basically lost 60k because of it. A bunch of people are donating hashing power to the pool to help him recover it.
Can someone explain this entire concept to me? What the heck is mining? Are you being rewarded for processing packets with fractions of a penny? Ie, like [email protected], but if you complete a packet you get 1/1000 of a cent or something?
What I'm about to say is not technically correct but it made it easier for me to explain mining to people.
Think of mining as accounting where you receive a "block" with the transaction data of others. You use your computing power to verify those transactions and for that the system pays you some bitcoins. The more computing power you have, the more blocks you can process and the more bitcoins you earn. Beside this, mining is also a way to distribute new bitcoins among the users instead of giving them away.
In reality it's a much more complex system but you're gonna have to use your google fu since i'm not typing all that shit.
You can start (again) with the paper written by the inventor of bitcoins => http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
Ok thank you. I get that. But what is the data I'm mining? Am I helping discover new proteins? Or am I computing theoretical cures for cancer? Or is it literally just crunching numbers pointlessly?
Your crunching them pointlessly because that's the balancing mechanism to keep the input of bitcoins in the market constant and also give enough time for the solved blocks to propagate in the network. The system is made so all the miners "solve" one block every 10 minutes. If you add more computing power to the network, the block will be solved faster so the system will artificially inflate the difficulty of the next block to slow everyone down going back to 1 block every 10 minutes.
You're not curing anyone, you're just helping keep the network alive and protected. The more miners there are, the harder it is to take it over. The more users there are (with the regular bitcoin client, not the mining client), the more backups you have of the whole blockchain (transaction history) and the harder it is to take down.
No it's not, it's actually one of the smartest things I've seen in a long time. That guy thought of everything. Again, you gotta read up a bit to really understand the system and appreciate it's genius.
I'm not insulting anyone or anything, I just don't get it. Oh well!
If you would like any clarification on how anything bitcoin works or suggestions for further reading from a non true believer point of view then ask away. I follow bitcoin pretty religiously not because I think it's a viable solution and the future of currency, but I find the whole shebang fascinating from an economic and social perspective.
More info about the weaknesses of bitcoin here => https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses
edit : some nice graphs here => http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
oh, and holy crap 64$.
To think I almost preordered an ASIC. Now you can't get one if your kid wanted one from Make-A-Wish.
Last edited by Tea; 03-20-2013 at 09:36 PM.
Suprised the mob hasn't started a really crappy MMO that allows them to take the profit. Allow game cards to be sold to purchase in game items. Buy game card with cash, redeem for virtual item in game that can be redeemed over and over with no real product to supply. Profits come out the other end clean.
Bitcoins just hit 100$ US a coin, absolutely crazy.
The bitcoin mining industry is clearly ripe for Sam Deathwalker's 6-box rig of doom!
Its up to $125 now. Noticed that its starting to more media coverage, cnn money, CNBC etc
I am getting together with some guys at work and trying to buy an Avalon or maybe even a pair of BFLs.
oderint dum metuant
Up to $140 a bitcoin. That's just crazy. I don't know if it can keep going like that.
I just cashed out the majority of my bitcoins at 140$+/coin, this is going to have to burst at some point. Theres no way we you have 40+ dollar spikes in price a day and have it last.
Well, I hope it lasts a while longer and the ASICs stay off the market as long as possible. Daddy needs a new (insert bunch of tech shit here) and bitcoins are gonna pay for it.
That rig I just put together with the 3x 7970s is mining coins right now.
(Obligatory disclaimer: I will use the mining box to game when it's no longer useful for mining, so this was not its sole purpose when I purchased it.)
Last edited by Alkorin; 04-04-2013 at 05:43 PM.
Well batch 3 for the Avalon was priced at $5400 I think and it sold out quick. BFL probably saw that and said shit let's cash in. But then Avalon had a working product so they could up their prices.
Just read a bit on bitcointalk. You weren't kidding, people are seriously rustled over there. But, really, it's for good reason.
Up to $140... modern-day tulips?
Seriously, it's not that I think bitcoins are a bad idea, but given the actual uses of the currency at this point, this is certainly a speculative bubble. Supposedly there's now at least one hedge fund investing in them, although I have no clue how much money they'd put into this. Still, the trading volume is pretty small, too.
Definitely a speculative bubble. I just want to pay off the rig I bought by mining, which is certainly doable at these prices.
For those that didn't get in early with Bitcoins, a few things have been released over the last few days about Mt.Gox possibly listing Litecoins toward the end of the month. They were around $.80 a few weeks ago and peaked around $5.50 a couple of days ago before starting to hover around $3-4. I have a feeling that once they are listed, they will be pushed toward the Bitcoin users and they will be much easier to purchase vs. the current situation. I wouldn't be surprised if they hit double digits once made more available to the masses.
If you are interested in picking them up, the easiest way that I found was to buy bitcoins, transfer them to btc-e.com and swap for litecoins. Also in terms of mining them, apparently the productivity rate is something like 5x that of bitcoins. I haven't done any mining but I kept seeing that number thrown around everywhere.
Last edited by Passenger; 04-06-2013 at 04:12 AM.
Really kicking myself for not investing in bitcoin sooner. I've been interested in it for the last couple of years and expected its value to rise, but never got around to putting serious money into it. I did turn $34 into ~$200 though. I mostly used it to pay for my VPN.
Thanks for the heads up on litecoin and mtgox. I bought some litecoins and ordered a 7950 to mine with since I needed a new card anyway. I figure it might end up paying for itself.
Bitcoins are at 173. I'm wondering how high it will go before the bubble pops and how low it will go when it does pop. Saw some post on Google+ that a backer of bitcoin had the price between $400 and $500 a coin.
Dusted off the BTC mining hardware and started mining Litecoins today.. I'm skeptical that Litecoin's faster confirmations will overcome Bitcoin's first mover advantage.. Guess we'll see if/when MTGOX starts dealing in LTC.
At the current difficultly and price, if I get those BFL jalapeno's, it would be something like $4k a month. Kind of crazy to think about. But I know the difficulty will be through the roof when I get mine and the price will drop and I'll not make anywhere near that.
I wouldn't bet against bitcoin hitting $500. Few people thought it would hit $200 a couple years ago and yet here we are. Consider that the number of potential bitcoin users is virtually unlimited. The more people that begin using the coin, the more motivation new users have to use it as it loses risk. Not to mention the convenience. I paid for a new VPN provider a few days ago, and the payment system they used was quite impressive. It made paying by credit card seem archaic. I pasted an address into my client, typed a number, hit send, and the AJAXed webpage in the background window updated with 'payment received' in like 2 seconds. After I saw that, I realized just how stupid I was not to buy coins back when they were $2.
Also, when this bubble collapses, I think it won't be as severe as it was in June 2011. That bubble was much shorter lived. This bubble has been going on for months. Bitcoin has a history now; it's less risky than it was 2 years ago. It recovered and thrived after the first crash in a big way. I expect more bubbles in the future after this one pops, and I don't think the coin will lose as much value as it did in 2011's bubble. People are waiting for the crash to buy in-- if I wasn't buying litecoin instead, I certainly would.
I'm investing in litecoin instead not just because of mtgox, but also because services are starting to use it. A silk road alternative using litecoin just went up. Also the developer for the client seems active and the currency is essentially 'established' unlike other alternatives which often end up being a pump and dump. The current difficulty in obtaining litecoins vs. bitcoins and the narrowing of that gap makes it an investment worth considering I think. It will ride the coattails of bitcoin but potentially rise faster in the near future. Even if it doesn't rise faster than bitcoin, it still beats money sitting in my checking account doing nothing.
Any suggestions for litecoin mining? Is crunching with a CPU worth it? cgminer vs. others? Any favorite pools?
I just started mining it so I'm far from an expert, but I can tell you a few things.
The currency's hash algorithm (scrypt) was selected specifically to allow CPU mining to be viable. However apparently the designer of the protocol used bad parameters which allowed people to figure out a way to enable GPU mining. The gap between CPU and GPU mining is smaller compared to SHA256 coins though. Also I hear that FPGA and ASIC mining will not be possible for litecoin. Even if it were, they couldn't use the bitcoin ones for it, so it would be some time before they were used. That is good news for GPU miners.
I'm pulling 43 Khash/s on my ivy bridge i5 3570K. A Radeon 7950 (the preferred card to mine with, ~$300) should do around 600 Khash/s. At current prices that should be around $9 a day if I'm not mistaken. Mine should arrive Wednesday.
Most people use cgminer as far as I know. I signed up with coinotron for no particular reason.
Bitcoin is at $209. Bubble has got to pop sooner rather than later.
Isn't litecoin much more susceptible cpu botnet's than bitcoin is? To be honest I really haven't looked too much into litecoins.
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