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Thread: I do not believe in equality

  1. #1
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    I do not believe in equality

    I thought long and hard about finding as many links as possible to support my argument. Honestly though, no. This is a fairly simple conclusion and I will relate the basics.

    1. Somebody warped the term equality. We are not equal and nothing in nature or reality proves this. In fact nature and reality work in opposition of equality.
    2. This is not about race or gender. If anything the greatest thing we ever did was convert from race and gender being markers of ability and potential to money being the marker of success.
    3. Equality of opportunity was the most ideal thing we could have driven for based on the intents of the founding fathers.
    4. Most of the social unrest we have now comes from undefined social caste and forced attempts at equality that are really pushes for personal power based on identity politics.

    Anyways refute my points. I personally think you cannot.

  2. #2
    some sweet gravity AngryGerbil's Avatar
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    muh muh muh milluhtary industriuhul complecks!

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    some sweet gravity AngryGerbil's Avatar
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    Seriously though, you're right. The name of the game is equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.

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    Registered Hoser Quaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryGerbil View Post
    Seriously though, you're right. The name of the game is equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.
    Equality of opportunity has some pretty compelling arguments against it:

    image.jpg

    The problem is, everybody wants to convince you they're the short guy, even if they ain't.

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Equality of opportunity is the only thing I have ever seen anyone substantive actually advocate for. This isn't Harrison Bergeron, no one outside of crazy extremists is advocating instituting actual equality. I have never heard anyone actually advocate for it but I assume those people exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

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    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaid View Post
    Equality of opportunity has some pretty compelling arguments against it:

    image.jpg

    The problem is, everybody wants to convince you they're the short guy, even if they ain't.
    Here's the thing though--by giving the tallest guy ALL the boxes, he can harvest the whole tree, and feed everyone, and maximize human efficiency and progress so the short guy can go build something rather than trying to do this job he's poorly suited for. That's capitalism; diverting resources to those most capable to supply the need within specializations. (It doesn't always work like this of course, but nothing is ever that simple. Like the fact that there are more boxes in the equity picture, which is when equity will magically work--when resources are infinite we can waste them on people doing what they have no natural aptitude for. Which yes, will sometimes allow us to discover more things, but again, that requires resources to allow.)
    Last edited by Lithose; 06-05-2016 at 11:16 PM.

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    if you turned that box the other way that mexican could totally pick that apple

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    3. Equality of opportunity was the most ideal thing we could have driven for based on the intents of the founding fathers.
    .
    The Founding Fathers were all about equality of opportunity.*

    *Except for slaves.

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    Registered Hoser Quaid's Avatar
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    New image, now with the correct number of boxes!

    image.jpeg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drtyrm View Post
    The Founding Fathers were all about equality of opportunity.*

    *Except for slaves.
    At the time it was logical. If the people in question came from ignorant tribal people's as a whole they would have "seemed" inferior intellectually. Nobody is saying they were right and time definitely proved them wrong but circumstantially they made the correct assumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drtyrm View Post
    The Founding Fathers were all about equality of opportunity.*

    *Except for slaves.
    Also to directly address your point. They were not trying to focus on equal opportunity the way we see it now. If you look at what I actually said I believe it's the lesson we should have taken from their intent. Not the express intent of them individually.

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    My point is more don't use the Founding Fathers in your bullet point. You asked for them to be refuted and turns out it was trivial.

  13. #13
    Registered User sadris's Avatar
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    I agree so I cannot refute.

    What if black and latino poor wages is due to genetic factors and not white racism? What if we should be focusing on fetal care to help improve IQ? Or child abuse (including spanking) to reduce future likelihood of violent tendencies? Or dual parent households to lower poverty?

    Nah. It's the whites fault. Better dump more money into teachers unions.

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadris View Post
    I agree so I cannot refute.

    What if black and latino poor wages is due to genetic factors and not white racism? What if we should be focusing on fetal care to help improve IQ? Or child abuse (including spanking) to reduce future likelihood of violent tendencies? Or dual parent households to lower poverty?

    Nah. It's the whites fault. Better dump more money into teachers unions.
    average IQ of illegl mexicans is 82 and american blacks is 85

  15. #15
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    There's nothing new under the sun. This is an old argument.

    There's no such thing as equality in nature. There's no such thing as freedom or safety in nature either.

    The state of nature is that life is nasty, brutish and short.

    Hence, we build governments to establish some reasonable level of equality, freedom and safety, in defiance of the state of nature.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Me neither.

    I'm glad stuff isn't equal or I'd have a lot of shit coming to me that I actually deserve that I didn't get. I bet a LOT of people would.

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    I think Equality of Opportunity was always the goal, anyone who thinks we can ever be all equal is ignoring one of our greatest strengths, diversity.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    There's no such thing as freedom or safety in nature either.
    Senseless freedom is still freedom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadris View Post
    I agree so I cannot refute.

    What if black and latino poor wages is due to genetic factors and not white racism? What if we should be focusing on fetal care to help improve IQ? Or child abuse (including spanking) to reduce future likelihood of violent tendencies? Or dual parent households to lower poverty?

    Nah. It's the whites fault. Better dump more money into teachers unions.
    Spanking eh? Fuck it I'm convinced. There is no equality.

  20. #20
    Registered User sadris's Avatar
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    Evidence suggests that spanking is equivalent to child abuse, on the mental effects of the child. The data is in. And there's a lot of it.

  21. #21
    Registered User Borzak's Avatar
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    Some people are born apple pickers.
    Some people are born grass mowers.

    I fail to see the problem.

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    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    The problems with black and latino and all other races and creeds really is from the collapse of the family unit. This shit has been steadily on the decline for generations. Single parent families are where the problems arise IMO. Its like up to like 70%+ for blacks. This is the single biggest thing that leads people, especially poor to crime, drugs and alcohol and repeat the cycle all over again generation to generation, only a few really make it out. Maybe the more well off people can skate by in life and still give the kid in a single parent family a good life and education but still this is teetering on disaster when the parent works all day, kid goes to daycare, or school and fucks off until the parent gets home.

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    Aren't "latinos" extremely family oriented?

  24. #24
    Are you an AssHat? lurkingdirk's Avatar
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    i don't believe in your right to not believe in equality. I'm fearful it will make me equal to others, but I'm a white male, so I need to feel superior at all times, or something is wrong.

    Ya feel me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Noodleface View Post
    I'm a douche though

  25. #25
    Registered User Rezz's Avatar
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    More so than almost all other ethnic groups, minus certain asian types (Hmong, for example, are huuuuge on family). They're also the most religious ethnic group outside of worshipers of Islam. (wouldn't argue that Islam is a positive overall influence, though)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkingdirk View Post
    i don't believe in your right to not believe in equality. I'm fearful it will make me equal to others, but I'm a white male, so I need to feel superior at all times, or something is wrong.

    Ya feel me?
    Haha I was waiting for a RACISM!!! Lol.

  27. #27
    Registered User Borzak's Avatar
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    Swiss reject guaranteed basic income today.

    Odd that some in the US are moving toward that direction when at some parts of Europe are now saying "Let's hold on and take a breath a second while we're adding a ton more who are going to be dependents now".

    Why the Swiss voted to a guaranteed basic income

  28. #28
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seananigans View Post
    Aren't "latinos" extremely family oriented?
    According to census its like 29% of all latino kids, or more than one in four are in single parent families. The national average is like 24%

  29. #29
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borzak View Post
    Some people are born apple pickers.
    Some people are born grass mowers.

    I fail to see the problem.
    And people said black people were just born to be slaves.

    It's never been particularly good logic.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    And people said black people were just born to be slaves.

    It's never been particularly good logic.
    yep, some blacks were slaves while the other stronger blacks traded them to white people for items and goods. you dont think the euros ran around with a big net capturing all those black people to bring back here, do you?

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    Registered User sadris's Avatar
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    Mean time to death for whites in the African jungles was 11 months due to diseases. They outsourced it

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    Registered Hoser Quaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astr0Chuk View Post
    yep, some blacks were slaves while the other stronger blacks traded them to white people for items and goods. you dont think the euros ran around with a big net capturing all those black people to bring back here, do you?
    Hmmm interesting rebuttal.

    So, if the USA were still a slave owning nation in 2016, and world wealth & power distribution was still the same, surely the US could conquer and enslave any nation it so chose. Let's say that nation was Switzerland. In your view, does that mean the Swiss were 'born to be slaves' because of some 'survival of the fittest' principle?

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaid View Post
    Hmmm interesting rebuttal.

    So, if the USA were still a slave owning nation in 2016, and world wealth & power distribution was still the same, surely the US could conquer and enslave any nation it so chose. Let's say that nation was Switzerland. In your view, does that mean the Swiss were 'born to be slaves' because of some 'survival of the fittest' principle?
    i dont think you or anyone were born to be slaves so much as when a superior force conquers you then you are at their mercy. disagree?

  34. #34
    Registered Hoser Quaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astr0Chuk View Post
    i dont think you or anyone were born to be slaves so much as when a superior force conquers you then you are at their mercy. disagree?
    Well, you are certainly 'at their mercy', yes.... But that in no way means that a whole population should become material property just because they lost a fight.

  35. #35
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaid View Post
    Well, you are certainly 'at their mercy', yes.... But that in no way means that a whole population should become material property just because they lost a fight.
    No but it happened all throughout history ever since tribe A picked up sharp sticks and invaded tribe B, killed most men, enslaved the rest and raped and kept their women. Was it wrong? Maybe, but its what we did until modern times. It still happens in certain places in the world.

  36. #36
    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    exactly

  37. #37
    Registered User Rezz's Avatar
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    Not to completely cover for Mist, but I'm pretty sure she was referring to the attitude of the Founding Fathers at the time the nation was raised vs. the attitudes of various tribal entities.

  38. #38
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    No but it happened all throughout history ever since tribe A picked up sharp sticks and invaded tribe B, killed most men, enslaved the rest and raped and kept their women. Was it wrong? Maybe, but its what we did until modern times. It still happens in certain places in the world.
    It happens basically everywhere there isn't government that establishes some baseline level of equality, justice and security.

    Seriously guys, let's at least have Enlightenment era discussions. This shit was figured out 400 years ago.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    It happens basically everywhere there isn't government that establishes some baseline level of equality, justice and security.

    Seriously guys, let's at least have Enlightenment era discussions. This shit was figured out 400 years ago.
    What I find interesting is I posit that I don't believe in equality and it becomes a conversation about slavery. What's important is the word you use Mist, baseline. We no longer are attempting to have a simple baseline of humanity ,justice and security. There is an active movement attempting to find fault in every single assumption of inequality.

  40. #40
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaid View Post
    But that in no way means that a whole population should become material property just because they lost a fight.
    218eee3.jpg

  41. #41
    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Equality of opportunity is the only thing I have ever seen anyone substantive actually advocate for. This isn't Harrison Bergeron, no one outside of crazy extremists is advocating instituting actual equality. I have never heard anyone actually advocate for it but I assume those people exist.
    Yeah you know what, that's not true, because they always use outcomes as their indicators.
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  42. #42
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    Gazelles are hard as fuck to catch and get away all the time, I don't understand the photo.

  43. #43
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    Gazelles are hard as fuck to catch and get away all the time, I don't understand the photo.
    The continued existence of lions means that apparently not all of them get away. I think the point of the photo in relation to the quote is obvious, but if you want to be retarded, continue on I guess.

  44. #44
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    I really do not understand what the photo is supposed to mean.

  45. #45
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    that photo is racist.

  46. #46
    SS-Pedellführer Erronius's Avatar
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    that photo is me ordering 5 Guys
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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    It's the female lions that hunt. And they hunt in packs.

    The male lions sit around on a rock all day, preen their manes, eat what the females catch, fuck them afterwards, and kill other male lions that try to get in the way of them doing any or all of those previously mentioned things.

  48. #48
    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    I think lions got it figgured out.

  49. #49
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Modern civilization: People, who would not survive 5 minutes if it wasn't for the government protecting all of their shit, complaining that other people with no shit want help from the government getting shit in the first place.

    That's how it's always been. The people who have shit want a government that's just barely strong enough to protect their shit from the people who don't have shit.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Survived 9/23/2015 Soygen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
    that photo is me ordering 5 Guys

  51. #51
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    Modern civilization: People, who would not survive 5 minutes if it wasn't for the government protecting all of their shit, complaining that other people with no shit want help from the government getting shit in the first place.

    That's how it's always been. The people who have shit want a government that's just barely strong enough to protect their shit from the people who don't have shit.
    No one is bitching about government assistance. And no one wants to take away your government cheese, girl. Its just that its a slippery slope from the goverment helping you to then thought policing your ass because of feels and then finally owning your shit including you. Its a bitch to get that fine balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    No one is bitching about government assistance. And no one wants to take away your government cheese, girl. Its just that its a slippery slope from the goverment helping you to then thought policing your ass because of feels and then finally owning your shit including you. Its a bitch to get that fine balance.
    The first step is accepting that people have less. They most likely made decisions that landed them in that spot. They are living their version of equality. The equality of what you have earned with your good/poor decision making.

  53. #53
    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    The first step is accepting that people have less. They most likely made decisions that landed them in that spot. They are living their version of equality. The equality of what you have earned with your good/poor decision making.
    And where does education and unequal opportunity play into that?

  54. #54
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    The first step is accepting that people have less. They most likely made decisions that landed them in that spot. They are living their version of equality. The equality of what you have earned with your good/poor decision making.
    Oh good, now we're at least up to 19th century arguments. Just 2 more centuries to go, we're closing that gap at breakneck pace.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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  55. #55
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    Oh good, now we're at least up to 19th century arguments. Just 2 more centuries to go, we're closing that gap at breakneck pace.
    IT does not matter what century, thats the thing holy shit mist are you that dense? These are timeless problems that will never be fully solved. Its just rinse, destroy and repeat. Were all one conflict away from slavery again.

    Just be thankful you were born on the good side of the globe and in your time. Cause you could of been dealt a shit sandwich you could not even fathom.
    Last edited by mkopec; 06-06-2016 at 06:19 PM.

  56. #56
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    IT does not matter what century, thats the thing holy shit mist are you that dense? These are timeless problems that will never be fully solved. Its just rinse, destroy and repeat. Were all one conflict away from slavery again.

    Just be thankful you were born on the good side of the globe and in your time. Cause you could of been dealt a shit sandwich you could not even fathom.
    And here we get closer to the modern reactionary argument: "Things are fair enough for me that I can compete in an evolving global economy. However, any further attempts at making things fairer would just increase the pool of people I have to compete with, while providing no direct benefit to me. Could you kindly freeze human progress right here, at least for long enough for me to live, work and die."
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And where does education and unequal opportunity play into that?
    Well I'm 40, I believe you are a few years older? My entire life schools were mixed race and gender. So I assume everyone could have gotten good grades. Got loans/scholarships to then attend college. So education provides the equal opportunity. I have seen plenty of examples of people from different environments being successful. Barack Obama is president and comes from a middle class background. Dr Dre is worth a billion and grew up in Compton. So they obviously took full advantage of equal opportunity and made themselves successful.
    I guess I'm saying I miss your point. I do see your intent though.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    And here we get closer to the modern reactionary argument: "Things are fair enough for me that I can compete in an evolving global economy. However, any further attempts at making things fairer would just increase the pool of people I have to compete with, while providing no direct benefit to me. Could you kindly freeze human progress right here, at least for long enough for me to live, work and die."
    The world is not fair. Also human nature is to have a pecking order. We will always establish one. Right now all this anger anf partisanship just stems from people wanting to be in the powerful group that controls our caste system. The more you force parity the more attention gets drawn to fighting for any little slight to your perceived position. You are making your own problems with your flawed ideology.

  59. #59
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    The world is not fair. Also human nature is to have a pecking order. We will always establish one. Right now all this anger anf partisanship just stems from people wanting to be in the powerful group that controls our caste system. The more you force parity the more attention gets drawn to fighting for any little slight to your perceived position. You are making your own problems with your flawed ideology.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    It's always the ones do the least who whine about what they deserve the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And where does education and unequal opportunity play into that?
    College is worthless. The entirety of mankind's knowledge is available in the palm of your hand or at your library.

    Bootstraps.

    My dad taught himself circuitboard design at 50 with some books and google.

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    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Shit takes effort though. Fuck that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    It's always the ones do the least who whine about what they deserve the most.
    In my experience, it's been the opposite. It's always been the ones born into wealth or other societal advantages, making it trivial for them to not only maintain basic living standards but also make more money going forward, who complain the hardest about making things fair enough that other people not born with those advantages can attain even the most basic of living standards.

    This is how far the argument has shifted in the US. It used to be that conservatives argued for a system closer to a true meritocracy, while liberals argued for more equal distribution regardless of merit.

    Now it's conservatives arguing for pretending structural advantages don't exist (or don't make it significantly easier to make more money), while liberals are just trying to argue for some baseline meritocracy.

    This country has been dragged so far to the right in the past 30 years it's unreal once you think about it.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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  64. #64
    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    This thread is hysterical.

    So since everyone has equal opportunity, especially in education, why do so many parents fuss about what school district they want their children growing up in?

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanaskin View Post
    Yeah you know what, that's not true, because they always use outcomes as their indicators.
    Yeah, it is true, because I said I don't know any of these people that you're claiming want actual equality between people. And that was the statement I made. I don't know who this "they" is that you are talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

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    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Education has always been getting out of it how much you put in. Yeah the inner cities have shittier schools, no doubt about it. But there is just as much opportunity to graduate, get loans, scholarships, etc. In fact some of those kids have more opportunities to go to college. The problems go deep though, not with the schools but the communities, shitty parents, one parent families, glorified thug life, gangs etc... Its not realy the schools, I mean they are still there, teachers still teach, kids still graduate, right?

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    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    So when you hear a parent talking about moving to a better school district, or using that as part of their next home purchase plan, you tell them they're just wasting time and money?

    You'd send your kids to a school in an inner city because there's just as much opportunity and the education and facilities will all be the same regardless?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    This thread is hysterical.

    So since everyone has equal opportunity, especially in education, why do so many parents fuss about what school district they want their children growing up in?
    You want the honest answer? You're not gonna like it. The good schools districts are the ones with White, Asian, and smart immigrant kids. Which mostly have mommies and daddies who are intelligent and work long and hard to give their children a better life. They value education and are willing to spend for their children to improve in any single small way they can. They create their reality and as wise and ambitious humans they hand those traits down to their children. Grow up, if you have not achieved what you thought then maybe you think too highly of yourself. America provides the meNs but not the motivation. Stop apologizing for people.

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    Education has always been getting out of it how much you put in. Yeah the inner cities have shittier schools, no doubt about it. But there is just as much opportunity to graduate, get loans, scholarships, etc. In fact some of those kids have more opportunities to go to college. The problems go deep though, not with the schools but the communities, shitty parents, one parent families, glorified thug life, gangs etc... Its not realy the schools, I mean they are still there, teachers still teach, kids still graduate, right?


    Do you think you could take the average graduate from Ferguson High and put them in a room with a graduate from some wealthy public school and that they could compete in academics? Or even have a conversation?
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    You want the honest answer? You're not gonna like it. The good schools districts are the ones with White, Asian, and smart immigrant kids. Which mostly have mommies and daddies who are intelligent and work long and hard to give their children a better life. They value education and are willing to spend for their children to improve in any single small way they can. They create their reality and as wise and ambitious humans they hand those traits down to their children. Grow up, if you have not achieved what you thought then maybe you think too highly of yourself. America provides the meNs but not the motivation. Stop apologizing for people.
    So you agree the education and opportunities for those children are unequal?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    Education has always been getting out of it how much you put in. Yeah the inner cities have shittier schools, no doubt about it. But there is just as much opportunity to graduate, get loans, scholarships, etc. In fact some of those kids have more opportunities to go to college. The problems go deep though, not with the schools but the communities, shitty parents, one parent families, glorified thug life, gangs etc... Its not realy the schools, I mean they are still there, teachers still teach, kids still graduate, right?
    Those shitty schools do not prepare even the best among those kids for college. Sure, you graduate, but that piece of paper has no value. Even lots of public white high schools are not preparing kids for college these days.

    Luckily the colleges have responded by dumbing down the curriculum for their customers. And then they graduate (with a small mortgage worth of debt) with no useful skills and can't get a decent job. And then more and more decent jobs go to people with H1B visas.

    The whole system is fucked top to bottom.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    Modern civilization: People, who would not survive 5 minutes if it wasn't for the government protecting all of their shit, complaining that other people with no shit want help from the government getting shit in the first place.
    It's a miracle how humans survived for hundreds of thousands of years before government then.
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch View Post
    If anyone of you can predict Trump please do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Yeah, it is true, because I said I don't know any of these people that you're claiming want actual equality between people. And that was the statement I made. I don't know who this "they" is that you are talking about.
    People advocating for government intervention, which is a hell of a lot of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch View Post
    If anyone of you can predict Trump please do.

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    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    By the way Titan_atlas, my avatar is not a picture of me. It was a gift from mods. I am a 33 year old white male.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    So you agree the education and opportunities for those children are unequal?
    Maybe those schools were made shitty because of the loser single-parent households (generally female) raising loser children?

  76. #76
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanaskin View Post
    People advocating for government intervention, which is a hell of a lot of people.
    What specific intervention are you talking about? Sometimes intervention is warranted. Sometimes the mechanisms that protect people aren't working, for whatever reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

  77. #77
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    High schools definitely aren't equal and the students that "graduate" from the bad ones and go on to college don't suddenly do better or learn study habits along the way. In fact, they tend to have severe problems.

    There is so little we can do about it, it really leads me to despair. Affirmative action into college tends to result in those students doing worse than their peers (unless you are only taking the top 1% or something like MIT can). Dumping money into those schools doesn't work. In fact, very often those schools are bad because of the environment and issues at home in those neighborhoods. No one that has another option wants to teach at those schools either, almost regardless of pay. So what do you do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanoomba View Post
    You're a disgusting person and you should absolutely feel deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself.

  78. #78

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanaskin View Post
    It's a miracle how humans survived for hundreds of thousands of years before government then.
    Uh, are you a moron?

    Humans subsisted for hundreds of thouands of years before government. Only once societies and governments began to appear did human civilization actually develop at any significant pace.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalid View Post
    High schools definitely aren't equal and the students that "graduate" from the bad ones and go on to college don't suddenly do better or learn study habits along the way. In fact, they tend to have severe problems.

    There is so little we can do about it, it really leads me to despair. Affirmative action into college tends to result in those students doing worse than their peers (unless you are only taking the top 1% or something like MIT can). Dumping money into those schools doesn't work. In fact, very often those schools are bad because of the environment and issues at home in those neighborhoods. No one that has another option wants to teach at those schools either, almost regardless of pay. So what do you do?
    Personally I think there is a lot we can do about it, so much in fact that it kind of leads to paralysis. Ask every amateur expert here on these boards and they'll tell you: the problem isn't the schools, it's the culture! How do you change the culture to value education, hold schools accountable for more than just ensuring their kids didn't die that day? How do you change families in these areas to value education and work? How do you make the work available in these areas attractive enough that the families will value it? The options are endless. And nobody fucking knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadris View Post
    Maybe those schools were made shitty because of the loser single-parent households (generally female) raising loser children?
    And why are those parents losers? And why were their parents losers? Trace it back to the beginning, what caused it?

  82. #82
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    So when you hear a parent talking about moving to a better school district, or using that as part of their next home purchase plan, you tell them they're just wasting time and money?

    You'd send your kids to a school in an inner city because there's just as much opportunity and the education and facilities will all be the same regardless?
    The schools are about equal, yeah the facilities are older, maybe run down, maybe a few more kids in the classrooms. Maybe even more jaded teachers because of the youth they have to teach. But thats not the core of the issue. I would not want my kids there because of the environment turning them into something I dont want them turned into. Its not the schools themselves that churn out the uneducated, its their communities.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And why are those parents losers? And why were their parents losers? Trace it back to the beginning, what caused it?
    Rap music and MD 20/20.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    The schools are about equal.
    Oh, okay then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    So you agree the education and opportunities for those children are unequal?
    Oh I didn't think your avatar was you. I do get you and Brahma mixed up sometimes. Similar conversation styles. As far as your post, I believe opportunities are equal. Your version of unequal is wrong. Based in flawed philosophy.
    As far as the education itself no they are not equal. Because cream rises to the top. Schools with better baseline intelligence from similar family environments will pull themselves up. They will feed each other and become better, smarter. That is why nice neighborhoods outperform ghettos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    The schools are about equal
    lulz. Talk about arguing from the wrong set of facts.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And why are those parents losers? And why were their parents losers? Trace it back to the beginning, what caused it?
    I already linked it: Thomas Sowell - A Downward Trajectory - YouTube

    Complete removal of personal responsibility.

    The parents are losers because they opened their legs for loser fathers and didn't abort or remarry.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    Oh I didn't think your avatar was you. I do get you and Brahma mixed up sometimes. Similar conversation styles. As far as your post, I believe opportunities are equal. Your version of unequal is wrong. Based in flawed philosophy.
    As far as the education itself no they are not equal. Because cream rises to the top. Schools with better baseline intelligence from similar family environments will pull themselves up. They will feed each other and become better, smarter. That is why nice neighborhoods outperform ghettos.
    And how did it get that way in the first place?

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadris View Post
    I already linked it: Thomas Sowell - A Downward Trajectory - YouTube

    Complete removal of personal responsibility.

    The parents are losers because they opened their legs for loser fathers and didn't abort or remarry.
    And how were they supposed to know how to do that without proper education and upbringing?

  90. #90
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And why are those parents losers? And why were their parents losers? Trace it back to the beginning, what caused it?
    Honestly I think this is the wrong question to ask mostly because it's so charged. You can't have honest conversations about this stuff because everyone is so buttmad about everything always. And dug in to whatever nonsense they happen to believe.

    Better to just observe the problem as it is and work on ways out of it. Is there anyone who doesn't think we'd all be better off if Compton High was graduating capable people who were well integrated into society and competitive at the highest levels of academia?
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadris View Post
    I already linked it: Thomas Sowell - A Downward Trajectory - YouTube

    Complete removal of personal responsibility.

    The parents are losers because they opened their legs for loser fathers and didn't abort or remarry.
    Uh, did you even watch the first part of that video? Where he EXPLICITLY said that he had to put his daughter in private school just to get the same level of education that used to be available publicly in Harlem?

    Public schools have gone to absolute shit, and I'm in that small pile on the left that says the teacher's unions have definitely had a hand in it.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Is there anyone who doesn't think we'd all be better off if Compton High was graduating capable people who were well integrated into society and competitive at the highest levels of academia?
    Yes, lots of people. Because they think the issue lies directly within skin color.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mist View Post
    Rap music and MD 20/20.
    No because that implies they are black. Nice try though. Poor people come in all colors.

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    Registered User khalid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    Personally I think there is a lot we can do about it, so much in fact that it kind of leads to paralysis. Ask every amateur expert here on these boards and they'll tell you: the problem isn't the schools, it's the culture! How do you change the culture to value education, hold schools accountable for more than just ensuring their kids didn't die that day? How do you change families in these areas to value education and work? How do you make the work available in these areas attractive enough that the families will value it? The options are endless. And nobody fucking knows.
    None of that is stuff we can really do though.

    How do you change the culture to value education?
    How do you hold schools accountable? I mean, you can't close down every single school and ship them to the better schools, then those schools get worse.
    You have to fix the school before you can make it attractive enough to attract good teachers. Chicken and egg.


    Maybe what you are saying is that there are all kinds of things you could do, just none of them are practical?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanoomba View Post
    You're a disgusting person and you should absolutely feel deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself.

  95. #95
    Low Information Janitor chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    The schools are about equal, yeah the facilities are older, maybe run down, maybe a few more kids in the classrooms. Maybe even more jaded teachers because of the youth they have to teach. But thats not the core of the issue. I would not want my kids there because of the environment turning them into something I dont want them turned into. Its not the schools themselves that churn out the uneducated, its their communities.
    So you're talking about the building then, right? Not the institution? What the fuck are you talking about? Of course the schools aren't the same. I'd live in a fucking cardboard box if I had to in order to avoid my kids having to go to Michael Brown High. You're being super dishonest.
    Quote Originally Posted by tad10 View Post
    This place has gone to shit.

  96. #96
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    So when you hear a parent talking about moving to a better school district, or using that as part of their next home purchase plan, you tell them they're just wasting time and money?

    You'd send your kids to a school in an inner city because there's just as much opportunity and the education and facilities will all be the same regardless?
    As a parent who moved to get into a good school district, absolutely the difference is the kids in the classroom, not the teachers themselves or the facilities or whatever.

    This is readily obvious where I live because HPISD is contrasted to Dallas ISD which is often times only a few streets away.

    HPISD actually pays teachers less than DISD. HPISD's schools are ~100 years old. They're obviously well maintained but we haven't built any new schools since 1948 when one of the elementary schools burned down. We have a slightly better student/teacher ratio because we have a charity that everyone gives money to that hires teachers for us to supplement what we get from the state. But in general, the "facilities, lesson plans, and teachers" are similar to DISD schools across the highway.

    But thats where the similarities come to a screeching halt. The kids in DISD are typically apartment kids (the "wealthy" kids mostly go to private or parochial schools) who are unprepared, their parents don't push them at all (if they even have parents) or they don't speak english, or they actively sabotage the school's attempts to educate. As a result, the teachers are very limited in what they can do, and the opportunities they can give these children. When the kids fear for their safety they aren't in a good environment for learning.

    But is it a case of "DISD sucks" or is it a case of "the people in DISD suck" ?

  97. #97
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And how were they supposed to know how to do that without proper education and upbringing?
    I dont know bro, you tell me. I grew up in inner city Detroit, Fucking Junction and Michigan Avenue, for the better part of my life and yet here I am. My father grew up in Detroit for most of his life and yet here he is and were both educated.

    Maybe were just destined to have a certain portion of our society be fucking losers? And there is really nothing we can do about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by khalid View Post
    None of that is stuff we can really do though.

    How do you change the culture to value education?
    Well, first you'd have to offer a product that's worthy of being valued.

    Part of it is a chicken/egg problem in that they don't value the education because they know they're not getting an education of value.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    And how were they supposed to know how to do that without proper education and upbringing?
    I already said this. All the information is already available on their iphone! FreeDomainRadio has dozens of podcasts about the horrors of single-parenting. If you're going to bring a child into the world, you better be damn sure you're informed on the dos-and-donts.

  100. #100
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    Yes, lots of people. Because they think the issue lies directly within skin color.
    I was waiting for us all to be called racists, thanks Khane for stepping up

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