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Thread: Problem with every mmorpg

  1. #1
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    Problem with every mmorpg

    I think I have finally figured out why I am an altaholic in every Mmorpg I have ever played.

    It's an issue that is in every Mmorpg just about. I call it the From Hero to Zero syndrome.

    In just about every Mmorpg ever made, you start out with the mobs dying decently fast and your experience bar moving quickly. It feels heroic and fun.

    Then as you level up, the game punishes you for leveling up. The mobs die slower, but harder, and your experience bar goes up much slower. You feel less effective in battle with the mobs and more like the zero than the hero in the battles.

    I'm tired of putting a good chunk of my life in to these games that effectively punish me for leveling up.

    Am I crazy?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Faggins View Post
    Am I crazy?
    Yes.

  3. #3
    Rape Culture Enthusiast Dr. Mario Speedwagon's Avatar
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    I definitely felt like a hero taking 15 minutes to kill a moss snake on my first EQ character as we both just stood there missing each other. I think you've nailed it.

  4. #4
    Le'Rofl Calbiyum's Avatar
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    Go kill the mobs you felt like a hero killing at a higher level and watch how much easier you can kill them

  5. #5
    Registered User Sithro's Avatar
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    Nah.

    If you really want to get into MMO problems... Well, shit, Overwatch isn't live yet and I'm so tired that I can't sleep so fuck it.

    For one thing, you shouldn't be the hero in an MMO. A lot of companies set up quest lines to make YOU the hero of the world. But the problem with this is that you consciously know for a fact that there are like 3000 of heroes of the world running around you. Rather than build quests in that vein, developers should try to set up quests to make the player feel like they're attributing to the world. Players should be allowed to make their own names within the game, (like Fansy, Furor, Richardo and other well known players from EQ). But a player shouldn't feel like they're the main character, they should feel like they're a citizen of a world.

    Another shitty problem with MMOs is that everyone decided that WoW did expansions the best way and followed them. This is absolute bullshit. What I'm talking about is one expansion coming out, completely invalidates the last one. Once the new expansion comes out you literally have no reason to go back. It's stupid as fuck. EQ actually did this right.

    Linear questing. My God FFXIV is guilty of this shit in spades. Hey follow our quest line! Hey, you wanna go off and quest somewhere else? FUCK YOU, YOU DO WHAT WE TELL YOU WHEN WE TELL YOU TO DO IT.

    God, I could go on. Item levels are annoying as fuck because it means no uses their fucking brains anymore. Group finders, raid finders, whats the point of an over world anymore?

    This genre is fucked.

  6. #6
    SS-Pedellführer Erronius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sithro View Post
    Linear questing. My God FFXIV is guilty of this shit in spades. Hey follow our quest line! Hey, you wanna go off and quest somewhere else? FUCK YOU, YOU DO WHAT WE TELL YOU WHEN WE TELL YOU TO DO IT.
    main storyline quest can choke on a bowl of dicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
    Haha. Hey Alex, since apparently you're reading this, at least my version of FoH stayed relevant until 2012. You managed to turn it into a 5th-rate guild within months of me moving on to EVE and ceasing my recruitment activities. You really showed us all how amazing you are when you invited the entire IRC channel to the WoW guild and let Ravvenn alienate everybody but her 5 friends in your absence.

  7. #7
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    aren't you the same guy who pines over EQ?

  8. #8
    Registered User Malakriss's Avatar
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    I don't mind taking longer to kill enemies but the incentive is leveling up and getting stronger. At max level "and then what?" kicks in. Devs these days suck dick at creating reasons for you to do things, let alone us wanting to do them and enjoying it.

    If it was retarded the first time, making us do it 50 more times is not going to improve the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sithro View Post
    Nah.

    If you really want to get into MMO problems... Well, shit, Overwatch isn't live yet and I'm so tired that I can't sleep so fuck it.

    For one thing, you shouldn't be the hero in an MMO. A lot of companies set up quest lines to make YOU the hero of the world. But the problem with this is that you consciously know for a fact that there are like 3000 of heroes of the world running around you. Rather than build quests in that vein, developers should try to set up quests to make the player feel like they're attributing to the world. Players should be allowed to make their own names within the game, (like Fansy, Furor, Richardo and other well known players from EQ). But a player shouldn't feel like they're the main character, they should feel like they're a citizen of a world.
    This is certainly one of my pet peeves nowadays. I'm a proponent of having a sense of story in MMOs—having your actions feel like more than just grinding mobs to make numbers bigger—but simply shoving the story of a single player game into an MMO is objectively Doing It Wrong. Even putting aside the absurdity of every person on the planet being the Chosen One, the fact that every "story-focused" MMO needs to stuff you into an instance to tell you the story is a sign that it isn't well suited to being either massive or multiplayer.

    Honestly, that was the major reason I was excited for EQN, it was the first MMO I heard actually discuss doing story right: have a world in which shit happens, let players intervene in said shit, and let those interventions have a lasting effect on the world, and players will end up with own stories, all without being the Chosen One. Hopefully someone else will have a go at doing the whole adaptive AI thing some day.
    Last edited by Randin; 05-23-2016 at 11:59 PM.

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    I was watching some documentary about MTG on Netflix, and they were talking to Richard Garfield about games at the time. He said he had a realization about gaming at the time, that not everyone had to have the same abilities/skills etc. I think that if they took that into effect in MMO's today it would go far.. Although you pick a class, that doesn't mean you have all the same abilities as anyone else within that same class. We look at loot as the ultimate endgame, but if the abilities themselves were questable/random epic drops it would add a ton to any game and IMO make PVP even more fun.

  11. #11
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Go play d3, tera, bdo, never winter, or others.

  12. #12
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    Finished D3 multiple times.
    Tera gets boring fast.
    Don't have the money to buy BDO.
    Played NWO multiple times. Fun, but done.
    Playing others right now.

    Anymore advise?

  13. #13
    Le'Rofl Calbiyum's Avatar
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    Get a better job to afford bdo

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    Registered User Malakriss's Avatar
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    Invent time travel, play established games at their peak, win lottery, possibly invest in a studio that isn't crap so we can have better games now.

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    I wish. Been unemployed for almost a year now. It fucking sucks.

  16. #16
    Registered User Xeldar's Avatar
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    Have you thought about putting a name other than Bilbo Faggins on your resume? Your problem is my big gripe with adding new spell lines every expansion. Instead of having a 3 spell rotation and using 3 spells situationally to do my 30% damage in the dungeon run, I now cast my 4 spell rotation and 5 spells situationally to do my 30% damage during the dungeon run.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegan View Post
    Go play d3, tera, bdo, never winter, or others.
    Tell me, how fast does your EXP bar move in BDO at like 55? How many hours does it take you to gain a level?

  18. #18
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Mario Speedwagon View Post
    I definitely felt like a hero taking 15 minutes to kill a moss snake on my first EQ character as we both just stood there missing each other. I think you've nailed it.
    Those moss snakes were definitely the Heros when I would get kicked by one for 4 points of damage.

  19. #19
    Ok just fuck ESPN PatrickStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utnayan View Post
    Those moss snakes were definitely the Heros when I would get kicked by one for 4 points of damage.
    And when you did kill it didn't drop the moss tongue for the quest in Freeport that needed it. Why doesn't this snake having a fucking tongue?

    Not that I actually searched and bothered with quests in EQ which is another whole discussion in itself. Man that yellow "!" was a fucking game changer versus the whole [quest text]. We were so focused on grinding levels and AAs that part of the game fell off for many.

  20. #20
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    Problem with MMO's is the need to follow the same formulas.

    I want an MMO that throws away the leveling system and embraces skill, wealth, and control/power.

    Skill: FPS/MOBA style combat.
    Wealth: Economy means something. Free markets, trading, producing goods, buying & selling. High Demand = Higher Prices / Low Demand = Lower Prices.
    Control/Power: Politics, Lands, Property. Become King of a kingdom or a judge or council member or even just owning your own house or business.

    "Massively Multiplayer" and "Role Playing Game" doesn't mean it has to be grind for hours leveling up to defeat PvE content.

    It's a tough task to create my ideal MMO simply because most studios fail to even provide a skillful combat system. Asking them to implement a robust economic and political system are monumental tasks.

    The games closest to my vision:
    EVE (Politics, Wealth, Power, Control)
    Destiny (Combat)
    Overwatch (Combat)
    GuildWars2 (WvW in concept, not execution)
    Vanguard (Diplomacy)
    eRepublik (Politics, Economy, Wealth)
    Last edited by Fawe; 05-24-2016 at 01:02 PM.

  21. #21
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    My main problem with MMOs is them taking too much time with me having too little time. God I wish I was young again, in college with a cosy summer job and no cares in the world.

    ...no I don't.

  22. #22
    Jakon Rahl - FoH'02 Daidraco's Avatar
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    I think its easy to pick apart MMO's for what we dont like in them. Hell, I think you can really only find a handful of things in each MMO that are really done well. The elements in the game that do that for you probably identify with you at different points depending on your mood and attitude towards the genre. BDO scratches all my itches for now, but good god does it fail hard in some areas. WoW has became so bland, that even with all its new features I just dont get excited when I play it anymore. Everything else out there just doesnt even interest me enough to re/download it.

    If a company would just cherry pick all the different parts of every MMO that are really done well and thought out and actually execute them in a great way - then we'll have a great MMO to play. Till then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcaus View Post
    Tell me, how fast does your EXP bar move in BDO at like 55? How many hours does it take you to gain a level?
    Hours, several hours. But you can effectively play the game at all points at level 50. Are you as effective as the kid thats play the game for the last 4 days straight? No. Should you be? No.
    Last edited by Daidraco; 05-24-2016 at 01:28 PM.

  23. #23
    Delicious Noodles Noodleface's Avatar
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    My main problem with MMOs is they keep fucking with the good formula. WoW is a perfect example. Vanilla -> TBC -> Wrath is probably my favorite MMO experience. Then it got super casual-ified.

    I don't mind going from hero to zero as long as it's fun.
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  24. #24
    Poor Communication Skills bixxby's Avatar
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    The entire end game for every mmo being a grind for badges/points/currency.
    Battle.net:Bixxby#1897 | Steam: Bixxby | Destiny / PS4: BixxbyZzz

  25. #25
    Registered User Sithro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malakriss View Post
    Invent time travel, play established games at their peak, win lottery, possibly invest in a studio that isn't crap so we can have better games now.
    Maybe we should beg Notch to make an MMO. lol

  26. #26
    Delicious Noodles Noodleface's Avatar
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    Notch seems like kind of a dick now that he sold Minecraft. Dude doesn't have to work a day in his life from here on out, and more than likely if his fatass ever has kids, their kids will never have to work either.
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    I just want a new mmo to play, fucking play them like single player rpgs. Level up kill boss, next game!

    Wows 17th expansion can suck a dick.

  28. #28
    Janitor Tuco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcaus View Post
    Tell me, how fast does your EXP bar move in BDO at like 55? How many hours does it take you to gain a level?
    At 55 it ranges from 1 to 4% an hour. Not sure what it's at level 56.
    Want to play the next big MMO with us? check out Black Desert Online

  29. #29
    sa da tay! radditsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sithro View Post
    Maybe we should beg Notch to make an MMO. lol
    Minecraft is a better sandbox MMO than SWG after the combat upgrade, and especially better after the NGE.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    At 55 it ranges from 1 to 4% an hour. Not sure what it's at level 56.
    I realize this, I was wondering if Draegan does, or what the OP posted. Pretty sure that's exactly the opposite of the experience the OP was looking for.

    In just about every Mmorpg ever made, you start out with the mobs dying decently fast and your experience bar moving quickly. It feels heroic and fun.

    Then as you level up, the game punishes you for leveling up. The mobs die slower, but harder, and your experience bar goes up much slower. You feel less effective in battle with the mobs and more like the zero than the hero in the battles.

    I'm tired of putting a good chunk of my life in to these games that effectively punish me for leveling up.

  31. #31
    Registered User Sacel's Avatar
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    This.
    In EQ 51+ was practically a different game due to difficulty. Strategies that were fun had to be discontinued.

  32. #32
    Registered User Malakriss's Avatar
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    You have been summoned.

    Thus the trinity was always required

  33. #33
    Iannis didn't do anything ZyyzYzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malakriss View Post
    You have been summoned.

    Thus the trinity was always required
    Mehhh. Could you fully slow the mob? Fuck your trinity

  34. #34
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcaus View Post
    Tell me, how fast does your EXP bar move in BDO at like 55? How many hours does it take you to gain a level?
    What's that have to do with anything?

  35. #35
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcaus View Post
    I realize this, I was wondering if Draegan does, or what the OP posted. Pretty sure that's exactly the opposite of the experience the OP was looking for.
    You kill mobs pretty damn fast in bdo. The higher level and better gear I get, the stronger I feel and the faster shit dies.

    You just have to kill more shit to level but the time to kill is relatively the same across the experience.

    Plus I think the 55 to 56 experience is lacking due to not having higher enchants right now.

    Edit: I took this discussion to be about increasing the time to kill stat modern devs feel they need to increase for some reason.
    Last edited by Draegan; 05-24-2016 at 09:50 PM.

  36. #36
    Registered User Lyrical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Faggins View Post
    I'm tired of putting a good chunk of my life in to these games that effectively punish me for leveling up.
    That was my problem with EQ1. It was really fun up until level 30. Then the difficulty got so bad you had forced grouping, unless you were less than a handful of classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nester View Post
    No, his super power is super preparedness. So basicly the. Best gay date of your life, cooks your favourite meal, has your favourite song in the back ground, playing your favorite game while drinking your favourite scotch. He knows what you like and it sets the mood, also Lots of lube and just enough forplay. He is batman he is ready for YOU as he has dedicated his life to being ready to do the things others can't and wont.

  37. #37
    Hard Truths Cut Both Ways AladainAF's Avatar
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    This is why city of heroes endgame was fun as fuuuuuck.

    edit: better vid.

    Last edited by AladainAF; 05-27-2016 at 06:06 AM.

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    I lolled at the mobs all standing there waiting to be killed.

  39. #39
    Jakon Rahl - FoH'02 Daidraco's Avatar
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    Thats one thing Im starting to see in MMO's that I wish would follow suit with future mmo's. Mobs just standing around not doing anything is just kind of lame. But they are slowly changing how things work across the board. NPC's that go home at night time and come back out for the day and vice versa. Illegal Trading in BDO where NPC's come out at night time to do "illegal stuff" is cool. NPC's that are running up and down the road with trade supplies. Merchants that move from town to town. NPC's that are chopping trees down and taking logs over to a log pile. Little things like that help with immersion so much, I think. If games would just make monsters have some type of daily routine, that would be all the more cooler. Just make it look like a living, breathable, believable world!

    .. and Im fine with NPC's taking longer to kill than a second or two as long as the exp amount is bigger. BDO has packs of mobs that are a mix. Usually 3 low health mobs, 1 ranged mob and 1 heavy. The 3 low healths die in a second, the ranged you usually have to run to and the heavy takes about 5 seconds. Adds a small amount of flavor to each monster type.

  40. #40
    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AladainAF View Post
    This is why city of heroes endgame was fun as fuuuuuck.

    edit: better vid.

    CoX was so good. I understand why people didn't like it as a MMO, but as a game... they did everything right.

  41. #41
    Registered User Sacel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daidraco View Post
    Thats one thing Im starting to see in MMO's that I wish would follow suit with future mmo's. Mobs just standing around not doing anything is just kind of lame. But they are slowly changing how things work across the board. NPC's that go home at night time and come back out for the day and vice versa. Illegal Trading in BDO where NPC's come out at night time to do "illegal stuff" is cool. NPC's that are running up and down the road with trade supplies. Merchants that move from town to town. NPC's that are chopping trees down and taking logs over to a log pile. Little things like that help with immersion so much, I think. If games would just make monsters have some type of daily routine, that would be all the more cooler. Just make it look like a living, breathable, believable world!

    .. and Im fine with NPC's taking longer to kill than a second or two as long as the exp amount is bigger. BDO has packs of mobs that are a mix. Usually 3 low health mobs, 1 ranged mob and 1 heavy. The 3 low healths die in a second, the ranged you usually have to run to and the heavy takes about 5 seconds. Adds a small amount of flavor to each monster type.
    This is critical for me to play and invest in a living world
    .
    ... Story bricks

  42. #42
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    I honestly have nothing against mobs taking a while to kill. I just don't like the fact that your experience bar moves less per kill each time you level.

    For me, half the fun in an mmo IS making the experience bar move. Don't punish me for leveling by taking away the thing that I enjoy the most.

  43. #43
    Registered Horse Head Flipmode's Avatar
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    I don't get it. You complain that you don't level fast enough? Most modern games can max level your guy in a week or less. How much faster do you want it to go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipmode View Post
    I don't get it. You complain that you don't level fast enough? Most modern games can max level your guy in a week or less. How much faster do you want it to go?
    That's just a bullshit statement.

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    Registered Horse Head Flipmode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Faggins View Post
    That's just a bullshit statement.
    Can you name a recent MMO that that took longer than 2 weeks to max out a character?

  46. #46
    Make Games Great Again Harkon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipmode View Post
    Can you name a recent MMO that that took longer than 2 weeks to max out a character?
    Feels like he forgot about hell levels in vanilla EQ

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipmode View Post
    Can you name a recent MMO that that took longer than 2 weeks to max out a character?
    Tree of Savior. Get back to me when you make 250+ levels in ToS in two weeks.

  48. #48
    Registered Horse Head Flipmode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harkon View Post
    Feels like he forgot about hell levels in vanilla EQ
    I said recent. We aren't talking about EQ. Every modern MMO I've played, been max level inside a week. I haven't played tree of savior but I generally avoid Asian grind games.

  49. #49
    Registered Horse Head Flipmode's Avatar
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    Most people's complaint is stuff is too fast and too easy. They wish the games would be slowed down. I can recall Draegan saying he wished there was no levels and just jump into end game. Others I've heard opine for the slow days of leveling. Realistically, most MMOs are and the fast side of the spectrum. Complaining about those is just fucking silly.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipmode View Post
    I said recent. We aren't talking about EQ. Every modern MMO I've played, been max level inside a week. I haven't played tree of savior but I generally avoid Asian grind games.
    Tree of Savior is actually a really fun mmo. It's definitely night and day different compared to Everquest though.

  51. #51
    Retired RR Pantheon Mod Convo's Avatar
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    I don't really understand the complaint here. You feel that since you're a higher level the mobs should die faster, give more XP? Why shouldn't mobs scale as you level? I think the challenge needs to exist at all levels but a good game will introduce new class skills to help combat the new challenges. One thing I liked about EQ is there were abilities that bridged certain classes to a completely new play style than they were used to. Wizard and quading for instance, even tho that wasn't intended. Even Rift did a good job with the lock/cholo build if you were a smart enough player and could see the potential when you mix those soul skills together. Maybe the class bridge stuff is a little off topic but you are powerful and that's why you own those lower level mobs that used to give you a hard time or you can AE more of them but I don't understand the thought process of steamrolling everything insight bc you think you're the most powerful thing in the world. It should be more about complex AI and having to figure out what abilities would be best used to overcome that complexity. Games should become more challenging as you advance, maybe XP rate isn't the best way to highlight that but I understand why it's part of the equation used in a lot of games.
    Last edited by Convo; 05-29-2016 at 12:26 PM.

  52. #52
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Go play gw2, even level curve.

  53. #53
    Zombie 4 (Un)Life ZombieWizardhawk's Avatar
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    Yea I'm not really sure where you are going with your arguments bilbo... you want a game that takes 40 hours to get lvl 20 and then the next 40 hours gets you to lvl 200 because you are stranger? Then the third block gets you to level 9001! No max level cause then you might feel weak?

    The one example you gave of a game where you don't level cap in a week or less is a game all about grinding and grinding and then grinding some more...

    Biggest draw for me in an mmo is immersion. I loved UO, EQ even tho I didn't get to endgame etc like most people here, vanilla Wow, and now black desert. Most of the others I've played are fun for a bit but just don't draw me in like the ones I've loved. Ff14 came close but I think part of that was playing with my brother. I like sandbox endgame more than running the same dungeon 262 times endgame.
    Last edited by ZombieWizardhawk; 05-29-2016 at 06:30 PM.

  54. #54
    Italian bastard Miele's Avatar
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    I like all (decent) MMOs for a while, then only the good ones stick around. My favourite? WoW for sure, even if EQ has a special place in my memories, when I look at myself playing it so many years ago, my first thought is "How could I put up with that shit?".
    I like following plots and stories, minor and major ones, zone stories and large questline bringing me all over the world. I like exploring and occasionally I'm ok with grinding for drops, be them for tradeskills or other things, not just grinding for experience. I need a reason to do stuff, not just mindlessly killing, for that there are far better games than MMOs. Immersion still means something to me, even if WoW and similar games are doing everything in their power to ruin it (from xpack to xpack it only gets worse), there is still something there that makes me chase the fucking carrot.
    Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

  55. #55
    Jakon Rahl - FoH'02 Daidraco's Avatar
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    I actually agree with Drae. The leveling shit is just unnecesarry now. There are so other options and gaining skills was a good point. I liked where EQ Next was headed in "theory" with equipment and skills. No levels, no skill point or AA points. Just totally based off gear and achievements. You beat the biggest asshole NPC in the area and you might get a chest that unlocks a skill that would allow you to journey into the next area. The next areas barrier to entry only being easily ignored by the skill of the previous areas boss. Ideas like that arent hard to come up with and I really think Dev's, if allowed, could come up with some great ideas that would shit on the leveling treadmill.

  56. #56
    Foxy Boxing kitsune's Avatar
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    Playing on a vanilla wow realm gives me some perspective into things that made the game feel truly massive and more of an adventure and less focused on just maximising your gains. It's too arcade-y nowadays.

    For example, yesterday I was killing deviate's in the outdoor area of wailing caverns and a group of alliance showed up. These guys had decided that they wanted to do wailing caverns, and trecked the whole way here which is awesome in itself, it's a goddamn adventureto move from duskwood to booty bay, to ratchet and then from there to wailing caverns, especially at such a low level.

    Same thing on my paladin, I got the quest to make verigan's first, oh go to shadowfang keep? Time for a long ass run where who knows what I'll run into

    The item level hysteria and the "higher ilvl = always better" made gear less interesting. Look back at how many weird wonky trinkets that existed in vanilla and realise that all of them aside from say, the ones that drop from archimonde today are just stat sticks with occasional procs. Compare that to the one that gave you a 4 second stun off the coast of Arathi, the mount carrot, hand of justice for extra attacks or even the frostwolf insignia for some odd defensive stats and a neat teleport. Heck, the beta version of six demon bag gave you invisibility, I think trinkets should be more like this (heck, all items should be more focused on interesting effects and less about this min/maxing balance) because it just adds flavor and more fun to the game.

    With that said, the worst thing about diablo 3 is its itemisation. It's better today, but it started off as a copy of wow and damn that was awful.

    I agree with other points too, I hate being called hero (especially by the same voice actress who voiced ALL the orc ladies in WoD) and wish I could go back to simpler times. MoP was the best expansion since wotlk because it was all about exploring things rather than the general cliche bad guy story they keep pushing. I don't mind if it's lighthearted, I truly think legion is one of the least interesting enemies because there's zero complexity to them.

    I feel I've gone off on too many tangents and I'll end with this: MMORPG's suck because they keep trying to revolutionise instead of going back to what actually worked and got people hooked in the first place. I want my next mmo I play to have revolutionary tab-targeting and hotkey-based targeted abilities with rng mechanics if you hit, miss, dodge, parry or whatever. Call me crazy

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsune View Post
    The item level hysteria and the "higher ilvl = always better" made gear less interesting. Look back at how many weird wonky trinkets that existed in vanilla and realise that all of them aside from say, the ones that drop from archimonde today are just stat sticks with occasional procs. Compare that to the one that gave you a 4 second stun off the coast of Arathi, the mount carrot, hand of justice for extra attacks or even the frostwolf insignia for some odd defensive stats and a neat teleport. Heck, the beta version of six demon bag gave you invisibility, I think trinkets should be more like this (heck, all items should be more focused on interesting effects and less about this min/maxing balance) because it just adds flavor and more fun to the game.
    More like min/maxing entropy. The "heat death of the universe" philosophy of game design.

  58. #58
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    Modern mmo's suck because their entire design is around getting you to max lvl as soon as possible and then giving you items to keep you hooked. The entire idea of raiding is what is killing mmos. There is no journey or adventure when you grind out at quest hubs to max your char in a week, and then you go kill dragon01 for that awesome axe you heard about. It defeats the point when you progress that fast. It also gives way to MUDFlation. If designers would focus on creating a slower pace mmo where you getting to max lvl wasn't the end all be all, then mmo's wouldn't suck as much.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
    main storyline quest can choke on a bowl of dicks
    Also with FF14: "You killed the 5 bear asses as part of an integral storyline! Now take 2 airships, and zone 8 times to come hand in this main story quest!"

  60. #60
    Registered User Malakriss's Avatar
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    FF14 is an Asian game, such is their way.

  61. #61
    Foxy Boxing kitsune's Avatar
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    I don't see why we need to gate 'end game' content around being the maximum level. Why not have it like in diablo 2 or poe where getting max level takes a long time but the last few levels start mattering less and less because of how overall strong you already are. Lets say level cap is 100, why can't a guy do endgame raids from like level 70?

  62. #62
    Italian bastard Miele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsune View Post
    Playing on a vanilla wow realm gives me some perspective into things that made the game feel truly massive and more of an adventure and less focused on just maximising your gains. It's too arcade-y nowadays.

    For example, yesterday I was killing deviate's in the outdoor area of wailing caverns and a group of alliance showed up. These guys had decided that they wanted to do wailing caverns, and trecked the whole way here which is awesome in itself, it's a goddamn adventureto move from duskwood to booty bay, to ratchet and then from there to wailing caverns, especially at such a low level.
    It's a system that works if the group is made of mostly friends, nobody goes linkdead, nobody bails because RL reasons and all of them have the time to do the run and to actually complete the dungeon. As you know it can take well over 1 hour, if not two. I love it, but it can lead to frustrating nights. In BRD mage goes LD, rogue has an emergency, the other three just wasted half a night just to get there and kill one boss, because of no warlock, no summon, etc.
    Vanilla was amazing, but it had (and still has if you play on private servers) a bunch of things that have the potential of being extremely annoying. I would still go back in time if I could.
    Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsune View Post
    I don't see why we need to gate 'end game' content around being the maximum level. Why not have it like in diablo 2 or poe where getting max level takes a long time but the last few levels start mattering less and less because of how overall strong you already are. Lets say level cap is 100, why can't a guy do endgame raids from like level 70?
    I agree. There is no reason Developers can't change the way leveling and end game content work in mmos. The first team that does this could very easily have the next wow on their hands. Then again, WOW and EQ are the reason we have this mess.

  64. #64
    Hard Truths Cut Both Ways AladainAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsune View Post
    I don't see why we need to gate 'end game' content around being the maximum level. Why not have it like in diablo 2 or poe where getting max level takes a long time but the last few levels start mattering less and less because of how overall strong you already are. Lets say level cap is 100, why can't a guy do endgame raids from like level 70?
    Because most players of mmos these days are delusional fucks that min/max everything to such extremes that generally a sub level 100 person would never be welcome because while they might perform 98.2% as well as a level 100, there's still a 1.8% deficiency which is more than enough to make you overlooked. You're talking about a genre where people will kick DPS out of raids and shit because they are not at peak efficiency. Fuck that mess.

    The only way they could do it is to make a level 70 be max "power" level, and any levels gained afterward are good only for things like cosmetics, more bank space, etc etc. But then, they lock themselves into never being able to raise the level limit legitimately as those have likely already obtained the higher levels. While not a problem on it's face, you'll then get these players bitching about lack of content because the expac came out with all this new stuff to go from 70-80, but all of which has been trivialized by obtaining the new "max level" immediately upon logon. Maybe a new "temp" exp bar from 70 to 80 could solve it in this case, but then it just gets confusing.
    Last edited by AladainAF; 05-31-2016 at 02:05 PM.

  65. #65
    Registered User Malakriss's Avatar
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    Don't forget their "Required Level X" which is hard level capped by ilevel table. Bind on Equip is fine but no one is going to buy the stuff if it's unusable for twinking. Most quests are hard capped with a minimum level or a prerequisite chain so you're bottlenecked with the blob of players each expansion release as well.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by AladainAF View Post
    You're talking about a genre where people will kick DPS out of raids and shit because they are not at peak efficiency. Fuck that mess.
    This is extreme hyperbole. The vast majority of MMO raiding isn't nearly as cutthroat as you describe it. There are plenty of guilds in the MMO raidscene that don't kick people for poor performance. The social issue only arises when people with mismatched goals play together. Either the min-maxer deceiving himself into thinking he can stomach grouping with bad players day in day out, or the bad player deluding himself he can play with the top performers without being a burden.

  67. #67
    Registered Dorf Kreugen's Avatar
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    It's funny that so few of these posts have anything to do with actually playing the game.

    Often, it's just not a good game. But even with a good game, the problem is the absurd expectation that 5000 hours and years later you'll still experience the same level of enjoyment. After that amount of time the game has to morph into something that can both interest people who have played the same shit for a decade as well as be accessible enough for new or returning people. A nearly impossible task that always falls short on both ends.

    My guess pulled straight from ass is that the fix for this is not a fix but rather SEQUELS or NEW GAMES instead of EXPANSIONS. It's been a decade, stop trying to milk that rotting carcass.

    Do you want a game, or a virtual world? Hell, the moment something respawns out of thin air, it's no more a virtual world than a Call of Duty match. You're not going to get the Matrix, stop asking for it.

    The other problem with MMORPG's are the goddamn people. If the game is easy enough that you can tolerate playing with any idiot, then you're probably going to see and do everything and swiftly move on to something else. However, if the game is challenging enough that you have to be selective with who you play with, you'll soon frequently find yourself in your backyard at 3am digging graves for the random strangers you chopped to pieces with a machete in a blind rage.

  68. #68
    Registered Dorf Kreugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eidal View Post
    Either the min-maxer deceiving himself into thinking he can stomach grouping with bad players day in day out, or the bad player deluding himself he can play with the top performers without being a burden.
    I fell into this trap. I was interested in playing but didn't want to go through the fuckawful hell of finding good players, so I thought I could just play easier content with bad ones. Except anything easy enough for bad players is made irrelevant in a matter of days, and going any further is a 100 foot brick wall of resumes, interviews, and 3 day a week commitments.

    And this wasn't just WoW, or EQ. This was every MMO.

  69. #69
    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    It's true. Playing an MMO is like being married. Eventually you gotta just up the kink so the passion doesn't fade. I think it's a hardware problem, not a software problem.

    We need some Logitech Ben Wa Balls.

  70. #70
    Hard Truths Cut Both Ways AladainAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eidal View Post
    This is extreme hyperbole. The vast majority of MMO raiding isn't nearly as cutthroat as you describe it. There are plenty of guilds in the MMO raidscene that don't kick people for poor performance. The social issue only arises when people with mismatched goals play together. Either the min-maxer deceiving himself into thinking he can stomach grouping with bad players day in day out, or the bad player deluding himself he can play with the top performers without being a burden.
    Try playing the FFXIV end game content. It's tuned as such. Being 99% peak performance isn't good enough.

  71. #71
    Registered Dorf Kreugen's Avatar
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    Which brings up another point, class balancing.

    Wanted to be class x? Too fucking bad, that class is too short for this ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AladainAF View Post
    Try playing the FFXIV end game content. It's tuned for Asians. Why you no A+ DPS?.
    Fixed that for you.

  73. #73
    Coat-hanger Dick Khane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Pretty sure you meant S class DPS. A is garbage tier over there.

  74. #74
    Administrator Draegan's Avatar
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    Sorry, only aspie shitlords still play hotbar tab target dikumuds these days.

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    I agree with Kruegen. This is something I've suggested many times. At a certain point a successful mmo should reset and start over with new content.

    For example, Everquest should have had taken what it had, and started Everquest 2 as the SAME GAME but with new level 1 to 50 content.

    There effectively wasnt anything completely wrong with the EQ formula, but just like every other mmo company out there, SoE chose to make something DIFFERENT for EQ2 rather than simply making another EQ. And, failed.

    The EQ formula worked for Classic through DoDH. There should be 3 or 4 EQs out there by now, but instead we have a grossly morphed pile of shit with over 20 expansions that honestly doesn't fully impress anybody.

    People asked me after Starwars Galaxies came out (and I was disappointed with it) if I was expecting Everquest in space. My answer was and still is YES! That would have been great.

    There's never been an Everquest era 1999-2004 clone. That's where the industry failed. WoW was a highly distant EQ clone, and quickly diverged greatly the after. Then the industry made a million and one WoW clomes. Too bad they didn't try making even one Everquest clone.

  76. #76
    Registered User Ukerric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khane View Post
    We need some Logitech Ben Wa Balls.
    Having had carpal problems, I'd appreciate an ergonomic mouse that would massage my hand. Alas, the stressed bits and on the back, not the more sensitive palm...

  77. #77
    Italian bastard Miele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreugen View Post
    I fell into this trap. I was interested in playing but didn't want to go through the fuckawful hell of finding good players, so I thought I could just play easier content with bad ones. Except anything easy enough for bad players is made irrelevant in a matter of days, and going any further is a 100 foot brick wall of resumes, interviews, and 3 day a week commitments.

    And this wasn't just WoW, or EQ. This was every MMO.
    I don't commit anymore to a guild, I found a casual one and after a month or two I was considering gouging my own eyes out to stop seeing such bad gameplay. So I just said "fuck it" and now I play alone, do a torist run in LFR and then once I have done everything I want to do, I change the fucking game, it's not worth having to run a boss a couple hundred times because someone is fucking up every single attempt for a small chance at shiny +gooder. If you consider that the use for raid gear is close to zero, except to do a higher tier of raiding, well...
    Oh it's good to bully quest/daily mobs with your Tanaan geared ilvl 700ish character, but there isn't much beyond that.

    There are so many good games out there.
    Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

  78. #78
    Registered Dorf Kreugen's Avatar
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    Another pro tip. If you like general chat for the occasional dick joke, you can go ahead and forget that idea during an election cycle.


  79. #79
    I WILL BE YOUR DOOM Utnayan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreugen View Post
    Another pro tip. If you like general chat for the occasional dick joke, you can go ahead and forget that idea during an election cycle.

    My MMORPG subscription time actually increases dramatically if they have a general chat and it's during an election year. 60% of the time, it's more fun than the game, every time.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malakriss View Post
    You have been summoned.

    Thus the trinity was always required
    At least in EQ we could go kill the goddamn server and people would form raids to hunt us!

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreugen View Post
    It's funny that so few of these posts have anything to do with actually playing the game.

    Often, it's just not a good game. But even with a good game, the problem is the absurd expectation that 5000 hours and years later you'll still experience the same level of enjoyment. After that amount of time the game has to morph into something that can both interest people who have played the same shit for a decade as well as be accessible enough for new or returning people. A nearly impossible task that always falls short on both ends.

    My guess pulled straight from ass is that the fix for this is not a fix but rather SEQUELS or NEW GAMES instead of EXPANSIONS. It's been a decade, stop trying to milk that rotting carcass.

    Do you want a game, or a virtual world? Hell, the moment something respawns out of thin air, it's no more a virtual world than a Call of Duty match. You're not going to get the Matrix, stop asking for it.

    The other problem with MMORPG's are the goddamn people. If the game is easy enough that you can tolerate playing with any idiot, then you're probably going to see and do everything and swiftly move on to something else. However, if the game is challenging enough that you have to be selective with who you play with, you'll soon frequently find yourself in your backyard at 3am digging graves for the random strangers you chopped to pieces with a machete in a blind rage.
    Some of the most fun I had was trying to out survive you on the EQ "one death only server", Necros were OP at that time. Imagine playing wow with one life!

    Project M was cool as well, some developer needs to work out a way where not too much harassment goes on and do something like that again.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrical View Post
    That was my problem with EQ1. It was really fun up until level 30. Then the difficulty got so bad you had forced grouping, unless you were less than a handful of classes.
    Its grouping that created this community and why people still remember the people in it fondly after all this time...

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    Having played EQ from early on I have to agree. I personally made lifelong friends there. That's not really possible in today's super casual games where most interactions last a few minutes.

    There is literally nothing on the horizon that can cater to what people are talking about here short of Star Citizen with all of its core features combined. Me bringing that up means basically nothing and I realize that. Less than nothing actually since some still think I'm a shill. But isn't it part of the problem that nobody tries to reach for greatness anymore even if they fail? They seem to grasp for mediocrity while loudly pushing PR claiming otherwise. It's so fucking boring.

    That's how the The Division happened. The game we got looks nothing like the game that was in E3. It's so different that it's almost another game entirely that was a poor rip off from a Chinese firm. Online interactions were hosed to cater to the console, along with the UI, graphics and core gameplay.

    Without game companies pushing the edges of what is possible other companies will never attempt to improve on a feature and give us better gaming experiences. I crave for a multiplayer game that does the things you guys are talking about and there simply isn't one in any genre. The ones that do exist that seem fun fall apart in the end game. Games like EVE are won and lost before anyone ever stepped into a cockpit. Which I suppose is interesting from a strategic, analytical and white paper point of view but for me it sucks the life out of the game. It's a bit too much like real life with weeks/months in the front lines spent with lingering anxiety mixed with boredom broken by brief minutes of panicked combat that are about as much fun as a paper cut.

  84. #84
    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    I think its us that ruined the games for ourselves. When EQ first came out for most of us it was all new, fresh, people trying to figure shit out like mechanics, the best classes for groups, the trinity and all that. Its like a whole new world to explore. But as time went on, shit just got to be systematic. Yeah new ideas were introduced with newer games, but weve all been there done that and its just not the same fresh feeling anymore. That first kiss syndrome thing in play. Because at their core they are just not really good games. What made them good is the experiences you shared with others, or even by yourself.

  85. #85
    Registered User Srathor's Avatar
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    I still want what Rift had in beta. I want it modernized and updated now, but want the overworld to be invaded. I want the competing factions changing shit. I want instanced dungeons that you can que up as a contested run, with another like powered group comes in and tries to stomp you. I want guild wars where they can war with npc factions and use that to change the world as well.

    But you can't always get what you want.

  86. #86
    devil's advocate fanaskin's Avatar
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    They shouldn't add new lands every expansion, eventually 90% of your game turns into a deserted wasteland nobody goes to. Update the old lands or something. Also fuck instancing use a system where you can make things spawn if you want to fight them somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch View Post
    If anyone of you can predict Trump please do.

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    Seems like no one focuses on building a world anymore, it's all about finding the new holy grail of game mechanics. Almost every new mmo overworld seems like it was built for a ARPG with how streamlined everything is, just a static treadmill until max level. At least when mmo overworlds were the main attraction of the game, grinding didn't get so borning (since the world was interesting and organically handcrafted). Also since we had such unique overworlds that would reward you for exploring every inch of it, it wasn't so bad not racing for max level. The old model of MMO's were to build a interesting overworld first then everything else comes after. Now you just focus your whole dev team to theory crafting the new hot game mechanic that will change the world of MMOs forever (then just copy and paste stock art around the world because it's all about end game anyway,right...?). Themepark MMO world design hasn't changed much since TBC wow, the only thing new is public quests from warhammer. MMORPG's are all about end game now and probably damn near impossible to think gamers will revert back to the idea that MMOs are all about the journey.

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    Well that's why I and I think others here argue that games with set level limits inevitably lead to a system that eats itself.

    With all of EVE's faults it does it's own thing in the end game that nobody can really replicate but it's still a horrible system that just delays the inevitable to such a degree that most quit before they ever reach it.

    One of the most fun MMOs I played was SWG just in terms of character development. Once you spent some time playing you could build whatever you wanted to in terms of character templates. They had to kill it of course. It's not something you balance. Anyone ever play the original Star Wars P&P RPG? Were classes balanced? Fuck no. They shared many skills but then you could specialize and craft something unique. Their issue was not having features that would take advantage of the various paths people could take with the various character templates and required way too much direct interaction where people didn't realize they had to do. I played a Dancer for a while and almost nobody "looked" at me during downtime in larger groups/raids no matter how much I pleaded and begged them to help heal themselves. People are sometimes dumb and game mechanics that aren't obvious need to account for that.

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    If I was going to develop an MMO these days I'd make / remake the old Paranoia RPG ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parano...e-playing_game) ). The whole set-up of the game has grouping as a requirement, but with the added bonus of killing off some of your own teammates as a personal, secret mission goal. It would be tailor-made for the LFG / LFR environment and those who go AFK or don't pull their weight.

  90. #90
    Registered Dorf Kreugen's Avatar
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    Problem with every mmorpg: It's all sunshine and rainbows until the wiping starts.

    "I truly don't know what's gonna happen when the lights go out, Carolyn, but I do know, once the dying starts, this little psycho fuck family of ours is gonna rip itself apart." - Riddick

    (this can also be part of the fun - to a point)
    Last edited by Kreugen; 06-07-2016 at 03:23 PM.

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    Newer games are far too controlled of an experience these days.

    Every quest hub, every NPC, every spell, ability, etc. are balanced and doled out in the perfect amounts for players to consume at the developer's rate. In EverQuest, you could charm guards, you could drop all of your gold on the ground, you could fall to your death at level 1, you could loot someone elses corpse, you could train horrible groups of monsters on other players, you could even steal loot from other player kills. Today there are so many barriers and arrows pointing you to what you're SUPPOSED to do. There are no opportunities for discovery or ingenuity, unexpected moments, or revelations.

    From about level 5 on you know exactly what your class does and you do that same thing up until end game and beyond. I remember in EverQuest, my bard had a ridiculous amount of utility in upwards of 80 songs in my song book. One of my favorite memories in EverQuest was soloing with my 60 bard in Chardok, seeing if I could get down to the gnome mask named and camp him. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I managed through a use of charming, mezz, healing, etc. I never even got the mask after camping him for days, but being able to pull that off was incredibly rewarding. I have similar adventures in Old Sebilis and Siren's Grotto where I actually got the Mask of Obtenebration and Lute of the Howler.

    For some people, these controlled environments are what they actually want and kudos for them since there is a ton of this type of thing out there now.. but I think a lot of people want a more free-form world where you log into the game and are set into a world again; no hand-holding, no arrow pointing you to your next destination, just.. do whatever you want. See that fire on the horizon? I want to go there and see what it is. You don't have to be at quest hub 6 at level 23-25 to go there. Sure there might be challenging things there, but maybe you can defeat it with what you have.

    I remember hearing about the Zul'Gurub plague in WoW or Kazzak trained to Stormwind.. the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental and removed immediately after, because you don't want to hinder the controlled structure they have in place. What if a game not only let you do that, but instead allowed for ways to counter this type of thing. Let players defend the cities somehow, even if they are low level.

    Until developers let up on the reigns, we will continue to see boring "worlds" with nothing to do but the same, tired formula. Interestingly, I think it was the original EQ's team inexperience that led to such an open-ended feeling experience. They didn't anticipate what the players would do and so they made something great by accident. This is why I'm hopeful some indie experience will be the one to make a return to this format.
    Last edited by Laerazi; 06-07-2016 at 04:58 PM.

  92. #92
    Italian bastard Miele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laerazi View Post
    I remember hearing about the Zul'Gurub plague in WoW or Kazzak trained to Stormwind.. the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental and removed immediately after, because you don't want to hinder the controlled structure they have in place. What if a game not only let you do that, but instead allowed for ways to counter this type of thing. Let players defend the cities somehow, even if they are low level.
    Not that I entirely disagree with what you wrote, but let's put things in perspective here: memorable deeds in EQ were never good for those players on the receiving end of the asshattery, be it training, killstealing, etc.
    Same is true for those who levelled, say a rogue or a warrior in a longass time and found out they couldn't do almost anything alone compared to enchanters/bards/necros/wizards/druids, who had the possibility to do crazy shit like the one you mentioned.
    It's also slightly misleading saying that "the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental", because I can assure you that I have a fuckton of memories collected during these last 11 years I spent playing the game and none of them is about "unintended gameplay situations".

    Is it true that modern WoW (or anyother copycat game) is way too linear and insultaed, more akin to a lobby game than a living breathing world? Oh, it definitely is. If you play on a private vanilla realm, you can see a gigantic difference, most things have been removed in the name of accessibility and fast gaming sessions with autoforming groups that teleport you into the bite-sized instance of your choice. It changed over the years and I fear it's not going to change back, ever.
    Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

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    I doubt you're going to find another hotbar dikumuds quest game with any kind of budget above indie level ever again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegan View Post
    I doubt you're going to find another hotbar dikumuds quest game with any kind of budget above indie level ever again.
    This seems true but unfortunate for those of us who love that style. It is a little bit like if they stopped making Civilization when Warcraft came out. Why wouldn't both exist (and the market for them)? Then again, I've never really understood why the production of (or maybe market for) certain types of games (like adventure games and space sims) seems to evaporate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laerazi
    Until developers let up on the reigns, we will continue to see boring "worlds" with nothing to do but the same, tired formula. Interestingly, I think it was the original EQ's team inexperience that led to such an open-ended feeling experience. They didn't anticipate what the players would do and so they made something great by accident. This is why I'm hopeful some indie experience will be the one to make a return to this format.
    Yeah, I think this is the dream. Some indie developer that just isn't good enough at the engineering to create a formulaic experience may create something that is actually fun to explore. Plus, the indie-sized player base might keep things a mystery for longer relative to the easily available information out there for most games now.

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    Civ has evolved over time and has remained successful. Wow is still going strong. I think when finally kicks you might see something.

    It won't be quest hub gameplay though. I almost would willing to bet you won't see hotbar tab target. If you don't see the evolution. Of bdo style controls, you'll find more xcom/moba kind of systems I bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miele View Post
    Not that I entirely disagree with what you wrote, but let's put things in perspective here: memorable deeds in EQ were never good for those players on the receiving end of the asshattery, be it training, killstealing, etc.
    Same is true for those who levelled, say a rogue or a warrior in a longass time and found out they couldn't do almost anything alone compared to enchanters/bards/necros/wizards/druids, who had the possibility to do crazy shit like the one you mentioned.
    It's also slightly misleading saying that "the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental", because I can assure you that I have a fuckton of memories collected during these last 11 years I spent playing the game and none of them is about "unintended gameplay situations".

    Is it true that modern WoW (or anyother copycat game) is way too linear and insultaed, more akin to a lobby game than a living breathing world? Oh, it definitely is. If you play on a private vanilla realm, you can see a gigantic difference, most things have been removed in the name of accessibility and fast gaming sessions with autoforming groups that teleport you into the bite-sized instance of your choice. It changed over the years and I fear it's not going to change back, ever.
    True that being trained on sucks, but it happened to me many times in EverQuest and it never caused me to quit the game; also people that trained to grief meant they would develop a bad reputation with players. I'm not saying these things are perfect in their existence, but just as examples of what WAS possible. The solution of baby-proofing every aspect of the game leads to a very safe but mediocre experience, in my opinion.

    And I'm not saying EQ was perfect either. Rogue and warrior are actually examples of classes that I disliked and wouldn't want to see in their old form again. New MMOs at least give these style of classes more functionality. I'd like to see classes having lots of useful abilities to pick from that aren't just "Do damage a different way" or have none at all. Crowd control, in general, adds so much to gameplay, but is very rarely required anymore. When it's faster to just mow down a group of enemies, the game becomes a boring whack-a-mole where you type your damage rotation over and over.

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    Thing is the dikumud style fits in line with the D&D gameplay that every RPG has based itself on (RNG math based gameplay with items that add or remove a percentage to something). At this point every type of spin off to get D&D into a real time 3D world has been done with blizzard mastering the format. Now we have a weird mix of elder scrolls type solo hero gameplay with the foundation built off classic D&D's math/co-op.

    Classic mmo players want the numbers game back in full force but modern players just want to point the crosshair and get a headshot without worrying about which way the wind is blowing. For mmos to evolve we need to get away from the rules of D&D and build a new type of role playing game that isn't all numbers. And we all know how bad first person RPG's with FPS style gameplay are with current hardware / game engines (darkfall). Hardware and bandwidth limitations are keeping developers from doing anything but tab target D&D based RPGs.

  98. #98
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    The problem with every MMO?

    wasted IP

    Pathfinder Online | Goblinworks

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    I agree with Krug as well. It's the trap I am in right now. I'm not the best-MMO-pro-player in the world or anything, but better than a mouth-breather and capable of holding my own. Yet I can't commit to set days or times....so any decent guild is out for me. Even if I could commit the time I'm not sure I want to. I just like to log on and play for a bit randomly on boring days or whatever.

    Sometimes my friends will let me in their guild but I don't get DKP or whatever, I'm just allowed to tag along when they are down a man or doing 1 step behind top tier content, and that is honestly the ideal situation for me, but also hard to find as slowly over the years my old EQ friends either quit or fragmented into different games.

    I'm not sure this can be solved. MMOs have always been, beyond the basic level of playing skill, a time > * type of game. I don't see this changing because if you make the game NOT require time, but rather some type of playing skill, the top people max out too quick and leave.

    Side note: As I evolve I'm actually leaning WAY more towards a DOTA style MMO. I don't mean PvP. I just mean fuck the open world and grinding bear asses quests and leveling. You have a character, it never "levels"(in the 1-50) sense, but rather you log in, goto the main lobby or whatever and join whatever dungeon/raid you want. The reward is maybe gear and bonuses or something. There will always be "you can play with us because your gear/level/whatever sucks, but I like the dungeon lobby idea.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laerazi View Post
    Newer games are far too controlled of an experience these days.

    Every quest hub, every NPC, every spell, ability, etc. are balanced and doled out in the perfect amounts for players to consume at the developer's rate. In EverQuest, you could charm guards, you could drop all of your gold on the ground, you could fall to your death at level 1, you could loot someone elses corpse, you could train horrible groups of monsters on other players, you could even steal loot from other player kills. Today there are so many barriers and arrows pointing you to what you're SUPPOSED to do. There are no opportunities for discovery or ingenuity, unexpected moments, or revelations.

    From about level 5 on you know exactly what your class does and you do that same thing up until end game and beyond. I remember in EverQuest, my bard had a ridiculous amount of utility in upwards of 80 songs in my song book. One of my favorite memories in EverQuest was soloing with my 60 bard in Chardok, seeing if I could get down to the gnome mask named and camp him. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I managed through a use of charming, mezz, healing, etc. I never even got the mask after camping him for days, but being able to pull that off was incredibly rewarding. I have similar adventures in Old Sebilis and Siren's Grotto where I actually got the Mask of Obtenebration and Lute of the Howler.

    For some people, these controlled environments are what they actually want and kudos for them since there is a ton of this type of thing out there now.. but I think a lot of people want a more free-form world where you log into the game and are set into a world again; no hand-holding, no arrow pointing you to your next destination, just.. do whatever you want. See that fire on the horizon? I want to go there and see what it is. You don't have to be at quest hub 6 at level 23-25 to go there. Sure there might be challenging things there, but maybe you can defeat it with what you have.

    I remember hearing about the Zul'Gurub plague in WoW or Kazzak trained to Stormwind.. the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental and removed immediately after, because you don't want to hinder the controlled structure they have in place. What if a game not only let you do that, but instead allowed for ways to counter this type of thing. Let players defend the cities somehow, even if they are low level.

    Until developers let up on the reigns, we will continue to see boring "worlds" with nothing to do but the same, tired formula. Interestingly, I think it was the original EQ's team inexperience that led to such an open-ended feeling experience. They didn't anticipate what the players would do and so they made something great by accident. This is why I'm hopeful some indie experience will be the one to make a return to this format.

    I play part time on P99, and agree. You can't really 'help' newbies in most other MMOs. Here you can buff the shiat out of people, give them old used gear, or go 4 zones over and res someone who desperately needs it. You can also help them kill stuff (or KS but the community remembers). Just waaaay too controlled nowadays, and I first noticed this feeling with EQ2 and it's controlled pulls, groups of mobs, no grey loot etc.

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