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Thread: Venezuela; The Coke has stopped flowing, probably means war soon.

  1. #1
    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Venezuela; The Coke has stopped flowing, probably means war soon.

    Not sure if this should go in the politics thread, but I think it is going to become a big enough event that it will need its own. Venezuela has been in the midst of a collapse for months now, but Coke checking out is a big sign that it is actually worse there than I think most people suspect. Pepsi pulled its production some time ago because their workers were being targeted. And with this halt in production (From a large food producer as well), the government had renewed threats to nationalize everything.

    In addition, the military 'exercises' Maduro commissioned seem like a thinly veiled prelude to a civil war. Guy has been using classic socialist rhetoric to justify the coming military crack down...

    “A fascist counterrevolution has triumphed using the rules of democracy,” he announced, but claimed the Dec. 6 election results are just a “temporary setback” for the “Bolivarian revolution.” (I always love how people using democracy are the true fascists.)

    In any case, shit is probably about to go down.

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    Registered User Palum's Avatar
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    I'm sure they'll all be royal fuckheads but somehow the American taxpayer will end up footing the bill because we can't help but hang our gaping asshole out there for the rest of the world.

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    Registered Halfling Tiggles's Avatar
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    Venezuela collapses. Mass migrant influx into the United States. Crime increase happens in border states. Trump wins by landslide due to increased focus on immigration.

    Wall is built.

  4. #4
    Vulgarian
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    Venezuela demonstrating communism doesn't work yet again.

    The story from a few years back where Chavez put a trade embargo on Colombia the country that provided half of Venezuela's food always makes me laugh. To offset the loss of beef from Colombia they instead bought beef from Argentina and shipped it to Venezuela. But the ships weren't refrigerated so the beef all rotted in transit.
    Last edited by Siddar; 05-21-2016 at 02:16 AM.

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    Registered Halfling Tiggles's Avatar
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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    From the BBC reports I've heard the last few days, I assumed a coup was in progress. It sure sounds like it when the military is "nationalizing".

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    MAKE EARTH EXTINCT AGAIN! Abefroman's Avatar
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    Are we clear on this or is this white peoples fault too?
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    #barnsohard Intrinsic's Avatar
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    I thought you meant like.... coke. The other kind stopped.
    Pussy bitch Draegan sold us out to MMORPG.com

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    Oh and sorta fuck Tuco too.

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    Registered User sadris's Avatar
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    More idiocy from leftists:


  10. #10
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    No guys socialism works.

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    Registered User Kiroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    No guys socialism works.
    It does. Pretty soon everyone will be making the same amount of money! Wage equality!

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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    Brazil ain't doing too hot either.

    They just kicked out their president a few days ago.

  13. #13
    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    If Obama can't do something to stabilize south America it really might turn into a trump wins Regan style. And Obama can't do anything to stabilize south America.

    I do expect a fresh round of moralizer in chief. One last time for the road.

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    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Lejina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    From the BBC reports I've heard the last few days, I assumed a coup was in progress. It sure sounds like it when the military is "nationalizing".
    The solution to their problems is obviously more socialism.

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    Registered User Palum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lejina View Post
    The solution to their problems is obviously more socialism.
    Yea, those idiots just need to spread the wealth around more equally. They're basically capitalists down there!

  16. #16
    Registered User Borzak's Avatar
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    I'm suprised haven't heard more on the military. Last week I read that military groups were down to roving around and stealing goats to eat. That can't be good if you can't feed the military.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggles View Post
    Venezuela collapses. Mass migrant influx into the United States. Crime increase happens in border states. Trump wins by landslide due to increased focus on immigration.

    Wall is built.
    Well the test will be if they can get past that wall the Mexicans are building.

  18. #18
    Registered Hoser Quaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    Well the test will be if they can get past that wall the Mexicans are building.
    Are they for sure building it?

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    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    We Do Not Scissor. Chanur's Avatar
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    Brazil and Venezuela have been building power facilities ( wind farms and such) the last few years. I wonder how the stability issues are going to affect power production.

  21. #21
    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    On the bright side, I don't think that paper tiger russia-china-brazil economic pact is really too much of a threat for the next 20 years!

  22. #22
    We Do Not Scissor. Chanur's Avatar
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    The mail order bride, child labor, and soccer exports will remain steady.
    Last edited by Chanur; 05-21-2016 at 08:32 AM.

  23. #23
    Vulgarian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    On the bright side, I don't think that paper tiger russia-china-brazil economic pact is really too much of a threat for the next 20 years!
    Well when you consider the entire BRICS concept was created on wall street in order to sale conservative pension funds on investing in developing countries by spreading the risk across the largest developing economies that were geographically spread across the world. The entire concept behind BRICS was reducing risk by very fact those economies aren't likely to follow the same economic cycles. So if one of the BRICS had trouble the others likely wouldn't. Meaning only around 20% of invested funds were at risk to a country specific downturn.

    Then the internet fanboys got wind of the term and have tried to turn it into a new developing world version of NATO. EU, world bank. IMF, and UN. They turned the BRICS into BRIC dropping South Africa because while SA fit with the investment purpose's of the the concept they didn't fit with the new were going to take over the world internet fanboy concept being pushed.

    I'm sure the bankers that invented the term find the whole thing rather amusing.

  24. #24
    scientia potentia est Cad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan_atlas View Post
    Well the test will be if they can get past that wall the Mexicans are building.
    The Mexican wall is really for the countries south of them in Central America, not South America.. Darien Gap is kind of in the way of South American immigration by land isn't it?

  25. #25
    some sweet gravity AngryGerbil's Avatar
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    You know you've finally arrived into a socialist utopia when the military is going around nationalizing things by force.

    Ahhhhh, the sweet smell of proletarian bliss! That guy Marx sure had some good ideas didn't he? By golly, what a gosh-darned genius that feller was.

    To absolutely confirm that the utopia has taken firm root we should expect to see the domestic rhetoric from Venezuela promising a better world that is juuuuust over the next hill. Juuuust after the next sacrifice.

    "It's okay ya'll, just give up your goats, half your grain, and 1 of your sons, and I promise you will be eating off the fat of the bourgeoisie in no time at all! No really. I swear! If you don't believe me... here's a picture of Che!"

  26. #26
    The Retarder lendarios's Avatar
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    The Venezuelan emigration has been under way for the past 15 years. If fact we have here Ortego, who emigrated from Venezuela. Basically for the last decade everyone who was middle class or had money has been coming to Miami.

  27. #27
    some sweet gravity AngryGerbil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lendarios View Post
    The Venezuelan emigration has been under way for the past 15 years. If fact we have here Ortego, who emigrated from Venezuela. Basically for the last decade everyone who was middle class or had money has been coming to Miami.
    I would too if I were them. The petty bourgeoisie are the softest target of them all.

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    Registered User Borzak's Avatar
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    Correct, raise minimum wage to $100k a year and all problems will be solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    The Mexican wall is really for the countries south of them in Central America, not South America.. Darien Gap is kind of in the way of South American immigration by land isn't it?
    I was more teasing that we have at least 1 wall in place already to stop them. Let's be fair there are many transportation means available.

  31. #31
    Registered User earthfell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astr0Chuk View Post
    That was interesting, so I thought this would be a pretty cool youtube channel until I found this video from them. I hope you just found that video randomly and aren't a subscriber.


  32. #32
    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthfell View Post
    That was interesting, so I thought this would be a pretty cool youtube channel until I found this video from them. I hope you just found that video randomly and aren't a subscriber.

    it was on my recommended list, yeah i didnt subscribe or look at their other videos.

  33. #33
    "AH HA HA HA HA HA" Barraco Bisi's Avatar
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    Oh anti-vaxxers

    Never change
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  34. #34
    Registered User Cybsled's Avatar
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    And like that, their credibility is gone ;p

  35. #35
    Superior Member Astr0Chuk's Avatar
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    deniro is an anti-vaxxer too.

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    HE A GOOD BOY Iannis's Avatar
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    Anti-vaxing is sort of like the new "Big Pharma makes a profit off cancer, why would they try to cure it?!?!" nonsense that you used to hear a fair amount of.

    Man I'm glad I haven't heard that cancer argument recently. Anti-vaxing is so much better. And it's the same sort of paranoid, cynical, semi-educated ignorance.

    But anti-vaxing is way less infuriating. At least with anti-vaxing you can say, "Yes. Ok. I see. But here's the thing. First off, no. Second off here's why."

    The anti-vaxers just tend to be mistrustful and ignorant. Both of those things are amenable to correction. The cancer retards were straight up edgelord conspiracy nutter misanthropes.
    Last edited by Iannis; 05-22-2016 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    No guys socialism works.
    It does... Capitalism and Socialism have to balance each other out in a successful system. Total socialism doesnt work any more than total capitalism does.

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    Registered User Palum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post
    It does... Capitalism and Socialism have to balance each other out in a successful system. Total socialism doesnt work any more than total capitalism does.
    Oh good counterpoint. On one hand we have Venezuela, Greece and soon more European spcialisy dominoes falling and on the other...? Oh.

  39. #39
    Treats objects like women Famm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
    Anti-vaxing is sort of like the new "Big Pharma makes a profit off cancer, why would they try to cure it?!?!" nonsense that you used to hear a fair amount of.

    Man I'm glad I haven't heard that cancer argument recently. Anti-vaxing is so much better. And it's the same sort of paranoid, cynical, semi-educated ignorance.

    But anti-vaxing is way less infuriating. At least with anti-vaxing you can say, "Yes. Ok. I see. But here's the thing. First off, no. Second off here's why."

    The anti-vaxers just tend to be mistrustful and ignorant. Both of those things are amenable to correction. The cancer retards were straight up edgelord conspiracy nutter misanthropes.
    The same type of people who are anti vax absolutely still say cancer is too profitable to cure. You are just mercifully not exposed to any of them apparently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palum View Post
    Oh good counterpoint. On one hand we have Venezuela, Greece and soon more European spcialisy dominoes falling and on the other...? Oh.




    The best years of the US are when we have socialism and capitalism working well in tandem. When capitalism has no bounds it is as a destructive force as socialism without restraint.

  41. #41
    some sweet gravity AngryGerbil's Avatar
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    I'd agree with LL sorta. A pure capitalism is too darwinian. Some might want to live in a world where the children of stupid people are forced to starve, but instead we choose to collectively feed them with 'socialist' programs. Which is fine. But the mix isn't some 50/50 Socialism Capitalism. More like 10/90. Because once you start electing the children of the stupid people who were fed by the grain dole, then you're in real trouble.

    Socialism is a useful idiot.

  42. #42
    Registered User Palum's Avatar
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    You are conflating government programs with socialist control of markets and industry.

    Socialism no more paves roads or feeds the poor than capitalism. Now if the state buys all the farms and portions out food, then that's socialism.

  43. #43
    Treats objects like women Famm's Avatar
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    That's how the word "socialism" has been used in the US ever since Obama. As if Britain's NHS is equivalent to living in the former USSR or some shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    I have seen and heard dozens of fully grown men jerk off.

  44. #44
    Registered User Cybsled's Avatar
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    That is more communism than socialism. Socialism != Communism.

  45. #45
    Registered User Palum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybsled View Post
    That is more communism than socialism. Socialism != Communism.
    Well, they are close cousins. The defining difference is communism is communal property with government controlled/owned industry whereas socialism is personal property with government controlled/owned industry.

    It isn't always as severe as Venezuela's oil industry or price controls on all food, etc.

    It also isn't to say that the US hasn't dabbled in it. I guess I just draw the distinction where everyone automatically jumps out and claims that any government service means socialism.
    Last edited by Palum; 05-22-2016 at 05:11 PM.

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    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    Capitalism is when rich people fuck over the workers directly.

    Fascism is when rich people fuck over the workers with the help of the government that they own.

    Socialism is when the government fucks over the workers with the help of the industry leaders that they control.

    Communism is when working people install a government that then fucks over the workers.

    Life sucks; kill yourself.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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  47. #47
    Registered User Kiroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palum View Post
    You are conflating government programs with socialist control of markets and industry.

    Socialism no more paves roads or feeds the poor than capitalism. Now if the state buys all the farms and portions out food, then that's socialism.
    Funny thing is they were talking on a radio show I listen too about how in a recent poll of college students a really high percent agreed we should be socialist, but when they had to define socialism it was seriously all about the feels, they weren't able to speak to anything on controlling the means of production side of things, didn't even get brought up. Was just all about being nice to each other and helping each other in their rotted minds.

  48. #48
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post




    The best years of the US are when we have socialism and capitalism working well in tandem. When capitalism has no bounds it is as a destructive force as socialism without restraint.
    God damnit not that shitty fucking video.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Phoenix View Post
    God damnit not that shitty fucking video.
    Do you have a rebuttal for it? Please have at it.

    The video does a pretty good job encapsulating the problem with wealth inequity. You can split hairs about if .01% is more accurate than 1% but the point remains.. Money has a gravity, and the more you have the more you attract eventually collecting in only a few large masses. Its the problem with end stage capitalism. You can't let it get to the point where it seems to be heading right now. Socialism is the mechanic to help prune back the excesses of capitalism.

    Also.. here is a good example of where Socialism and Capitalism work well together. The most socialist program in the United States is one we could absolutely not do without... Medicare. We realized we had no possible way to pay for health care for people who retire, and we needed people to retire in order to let younger people find jobs. So we decided to create a system where we could supply that to citizens above the retirement age. This allowed the rise of insurance companies who could never reasonably insure older people. They eat up way too much a percentage of the health care dollar. Socialism takes them out of the pool. This allows the private insurance companies to operate. Long term the effect has been incredible on our health system. With trillions of dollars pouring into our system from this socialistic enterprise, our medical industry has made incredible advances, mostly paid for with taxpayer money. Think of the advances in medicine since the passage of the Medicare/Medicaid program. Its not a coincidence. We have the most advanced healthcare system in the world because of the Capitalist/Socialist partnership that exists.

    BTW, when I mention socialism the model I reference is the Nordic Model.
    • An elaborate social safety net in addition to public services such as free education and universal healthcare.
    • Strong property rights, contract enforcement, and overall ease of doing business.
    • Public pension plans.
    • Low barriers to free trade. This is combined with collective risk sharing (social programs, labour market institutions) which has provided a form of protection against the risks associated with economic openness.
    • Little product market regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in product market freedom according to OECD rankings.
    • Low levels of corruption.
    • A partnership between employers, trade unions and the government, whereby these social partners negotiate the terms to regulating the workplace among themselves, rather than the terms being imposed by law.
    • Sweden at 56.6% of GDP, Denmark at 51.7%, and Finland at 48.6% reflect very high public spending.
    • Public expenditure for health and education is significantly higher in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway in comparison to the OECD average.
    • Overall tax burdens (as a percentage of GDP) are among the world's highest; Sweden (51.1%), Denmark (46% in 2011),[18] and Finland (43.3%)
    • The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.
    • The Nordic countries received the highest ranking for protecting workers rights on the International Trade Union Confederation's 2014 Global Rights Index, with Denmark being the only nation to receive a perfect score.


    I dont think the Nordic model is right for us.. we are too big and too diverse, but there are definitely elements we could adapt and modify that would be great.

  50. #50
    Registered User Palum's Avatar
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    The Nordic model where everyone is white?

  51. #51
    MEDIOCRE! Big Phoenix's Avatar
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    Wealth =/= money. Wealth is not a pie in that when one persons slice of it grows, others people's slices shrink. Were do you think 1%ers are getting their wealth from? It certainly isnt coming from the poor/middle classes, which that video implies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palum View Post
    The Nordic model where everyone is white?
    Im sure the unfettered influx of migrants into Sweden will have zero impact on its economy!

  52. #52
    Registered User Kiroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post
    Do you have a rebuttal for it? Please have at it.

    The video does a pretty good job encapsulating the problem with wealth inequity. You can split hairs about if .01% is more accurate than 1% but the point remains.
    But these hairs are never split and this is the biggest issue I have. Everyone thinks the 1% is the problem and that's simply not true. You start disenfranchising the folks who are in the 5%-.05% then things will go downhill fast. I'm all for giving the big dicking to the .01%-.001%, but the current inequality narrative is fucked and dangerous IMO, so I can't get behind it.

    edit to sort of agree with one of mist's points - you don't see fucking doctors or business owners who bring in high six figures / low seven figures fucking lobbying do you.
    Last edited by Kiroy; 05-22-2016 at 09:14 PM.

  53. #53
    Font of Positivity Mist's Avatar
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    It shouldn't be too hard to have a viable socioeconomic order.

    Don't let rich people get so rich that they can buy the government, but don't let the government fuck with the market too much.

    Have a functioning Fourth Estate to keep business and government in check.

    Make sure everyone has access to a quality education and basic healthcare.

    Don't warehouse disaffected people in slums.

    If you can avoid those obvious pitfalls you should have a decent country.
    Calling me a Cunt is a lot like calling Hitler a Nazi, it's not exactly received as the insult you were intending.

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  54. #54
    Registered User Talos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post

    The best years of the US are when we have socialism and capitalism working well in tandem. When capitalism has no bounds it is as a destructive force as socialism without restraint.

    How do you have capitalism and socialism working in tandem? When has the US ever had government control over the means of production and the loss of all private property?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiroy View Post
    Funny thing is they were talking on a radio show I listen too about how in a recent poll of college students a really high percent agreed we should be socialist, but when they had to define socialism it was seriously all about the feels, they weren't able to speak to anything on controlling the means of production side of things, didn't even get brought up. Was just all about being nice to each other and helping each other in their rotted minds.
    That is horrifying. The brainwashing is working well.
    Last edited by Talos; 05-22-2016 at 09:21 PM.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talos View Post
    When has the US ever had government control over the means of production and the loss of all private property?
    Roads? Police? Country Clerks? Military? Courts? How about the US dollar itself? All of these and many many more that make the country what it is today are socially owned hence are socialist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wormie View Post
    Roads? Police? Country Clerks? Military? Courts? How about the US dollar itself? All of these and many many more that make the country what it is today are socially owned hence are socialist.
    MEANS OF FUCKING PRODUCTION HOLY SHIT

    edit I need to go to the rustled jimmies thread brb

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    Banned By Next Week General Antony's Avatar
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    This really has nothing to do with Socialism. This is consequence of the Chavez gang stealing the wealth of their country - they've siphoned $300B out of the oil industry and let it rot because they had no idea how to actually run it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiroy View Post
    MEANS OF FUCKING PRODUCTION HOLY SHIT

    edit I need to go to the rustled jimmies thread brb
    Guy specifically said socialism, not just means of production. Socialism includes social ownership of services.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Antony View Post
    This really has nothing to do with Socialism. This is consequence of the Chavez gang stealing the wealth of their country - they've siphoned $300B out of the oil industry and let it rot because they had no idea how to actually run it.
    And what system allowed Chavez to do this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaid View Post
    And what system allowed Chavez to do this?
    This isn't the fault of an economic system. This is what happens when you vote a drug cartel into power. Breakdown in the rule of law is the proximate cause in what allowed this - they control the army, the legislature, the courts, etc. They can do whatever they fuck they want, and they decided to plunder the world's largest oil reserves for themselves. I can't blame them.

    I believe the Latin American states had some nominal mechanism in place where governments in the region were required to maintain some level of democratic institutions. They chose not to enforce compliance, I think because at the time Chavez was dishing out red meat / spitting in America's face, now it's turned into a disaster on their doorstep so fuck 'em. Let them deal with this pile of shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaid View Post
    And what system allowed Chavez to do this?
    I dont know, same system that allowed Putin to steal supposedly $200B? What's that thing they're running over in Russia? Free Market Democracy?


    By the way, if Venezuela is the representation of unfettered socialism, then Somalia and Honduras is the capitalism equivalent.

    A world where schools and roads simply dont exist and if you want to run a grocery store, you hire a guy outside with a gun to stand guard so that you don't get robbed 3x a day.

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    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    I dont know, same system that allowed Putin to steal supposedly $200B? What's that thing they're running over in Russia? Free Market Democracy?


    By the way, if Venezuela is the representation of unfettered socialism, then Somalia and Honduras is the capitalism equivalent.

    A world where schools and roads simply dont exist and if you want to run a grocery store, you hire a guy outside with a gun to stand guard so that you don't get robbed 3x a day.
    That's true, Ary--that is the capitalist equivalent. But Capitalism also has many, many instances of working correctly. Meanwhile, Socialism has, what, the free Republic of Ukraine, for like 5 years? Before another weakness of socialism destroyed it? (IE that even when it does work, it's so weak as a social structure someone else using nearly any other kind of political structure will steal its shit).

    This is why the only successful forms of socialism you see are either not socialism (Nordic style socialism--IE capitalist welfare systems, so socialism after capitalism does the work) or they are socialist entities of small size (Important for not adding too many errors to tit for tat) within other countries that shield them and essentially provide all the major public goods a socialist system would suck at. (Kibbutz in Israel.)

    So in short, yes capitalism can fail in horrific ways. But Socialism rarely succeeds in any way.

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    It's not an either or thing.

    Socialism can't work without capitalist energy and capitalism can't work with socialist restraint.

    Think of it like a car. Capitalism is the engine providing the energy and moving shit along. Socialism is the breaks slowing it down in the form of redistribution of wealth or government regulation. Opposite forces which require each to enable the proper function of a system

    Economic systems are tools to be properly applied. Not religions offering higher truth or moral absolutes
    Last edited by Lleauaric; 05-23-2016 at 02:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post
    Economic systems are tools to be properly applied. Not religions offering higher truth or moral absolutes
    Agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithose View Post
    That's true, Ary--that is the capitalist equivalent. But Capitalism also has many, many instances of working correctly. Meanwhile, Socialism has, what, the free Republic of Ukraine, for like 5 years? Before another weakness of socialism destroyed it? (IE that even when it does work, it's so weak as a social structure someone else using nearly any other kind of political structure will steal its shit).

    This is why the only successful forms of socialism you see are either not socialism (Nordic style socialism--IE capitalist welfare systems, so socialism after capitalism does the work) or they are socialist entities of small size (Important for not adding too many errors to tit for tat) within other countries that shield them and essentially provide all the major public goods a socialist system would suck at. (Kibbutz in Israel.)

    So in short, yes capitalism can fail in horrific ways. But Socialism rarely succeeds in any way.
    Yeah, all those Nordic socialist countries are massive failures. You don't get to rebrand them as "capitalist welfare" states. That's semantics and you and I both know it. I think LL's interpretation is the most reasonable and accurate one. It doesn't have to be either/or - in fact I don't want to live in the world that is purely capitalist, no more than I want to live in a world that is purely socialist.

    C'mon man. I remember you being way smarter than this binary BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post
    It's not an either or thing.

    Socialism can't work without capitalist energy and capitalism can't work with socialist restraint.

    Think of it like a car. Capitalism is the engine providing the energy and moving shit along. Socialism is the breaks slowing it down in the form of redistribution of wealth or government regulation. Opposite forces which require each to enable the proper function of a system
    Capitalism has worked without socialism, though. It's not a world I'd want to live in, but it is functional as a system of governance, and has lead to, in effect, very powerful nations. Just nations that are brutal to its people.

    Socialism has not worked, at all. That's the difference. Socialism is not a functional political framework, until we get AI levels of communication/management, and can remove human errors in tit for tat game theory stratagems it will always fail. Humans simply aren't good enough at communicating needs, nor at spotting attempted subversion (Or countering it correctly with a punishment strategy).

    The only aspect of socialism that is practical is the effects socialism hopes to bring and in SOME cases, small scale implementation in a capacity that doesn't require the complexity a government does (So like co-ops or regulatory locked companies). The effects of socialism? As you said, are good, and when you implement that in capitalism (Welfare) you typically get a better product.

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    How do you define "working"? For who?

    Does Stalinism "work"?

    I think we pretty much agree on most of it, but it's also important to define what we mean when we say something works. What is the purpose of an economic system?
    Last edited by Lleauaric; 05-23-2016 at 02:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithose View Post
    Capitalism has worked without socialism, though. It's not a world I'd want to live in, but it is functional as a system of governance, and has lead to, in effect, very powerful nations. Just nations that are brutal to its people.

    Socialism has not worked, at all. That's the difference. Socialism is not a functional political framework, until we get AI levels of communication/management, and can remove human errors in tit for tat game theory stratagems it will always fail. Humans simply aren't good enough at communicating needs, nor at spotting attempted subversion (Or countering it correctly with a punishment strategy).

    The only aspect of socialism that is practical is the effects socialism hopes to bring and in SOME cases, small scale implementation in a capacity that doesn't require the complexity a government does (So like co-ops or regulatory locked companies). The effects of socialism? As you said, are good, and when you implement that in capitalism (Welfare) you typically get a better product.

    Socialism worked as a political system in USSR. That's a historical fact. It didn't work well, and it wasn't pretty - but your argument doesn't seem to be concerned with those nuances, hence the rest of your post is constructed on a fallacy.

    If you think that capitalism in the 1850s with its system of slavery, or even after the Emancipation Proclamation with rampant child labor was "functional system of governance" then by that metric, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was an amazing success story.

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    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Yeah, all those Nordic socialist countries are massive failures. You don't get to rebrand them as "capitalist welfare" states. That's semantics and you and I both know it. I think LL's interpretation is the most reasonable and accurate one. It doesn't have to be either/or - in fact I don't want to live in the world that is purely capitalist, no more than I want to live in a world that is purely socialist.

    C'mon man. I remember you being way smarter than this binary BS.
    Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production, as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.

    Nordic models are not socialism. They are 'social democracies', they are welfare states--their markets are all capitalist. You're being retarded and attempting to alter what socialism is, to get an example of it working. Except your example is literally missing the most defining factor of socialism--social ownership. Which is also the practical factor which does not work.

    Also, everyone classifies it as a welfare system. I hate using wikipedia, but I'm not going to crack open a bunch of economics books for you, brosar, when you're trolling is this lazy.

    Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.

    I didn't label shit, that's what it is. The nordic model is not socialism. If it taxed 100% of profits, you might argue that's a distinction without difference; as what is 'ownership' of production without the ability to make profit? It would be like owning a home without the ability to preclude people from it (IE it's ownership in name only). However, that's not the case, the nordic model still allows for profit.

    Oh, so now you remember me being smarter? I guess you read my other post in the politics thread. I don't remember you trying to mirror arguments before, shit man, you really have lost your touch.

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    It's an important question. I think the most dangerous idea in our society is the conflation of capitalism with religion. There are way to many people who equate capitalism with Jesus, Apple Pie and the constitution.

    The deification of free market absolutism to the rejection of all other approaches is suicidal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post
    It's an important question. I think the most dangerous idea in our society is the conflation of capitalism with religion. There are way to many people who equate capitalism with Jesus, Apple Pie and the constitution.

    The deification of free market absolutism to the rejection of all other approaches is suicidal
    Agreed.

    Religious Marxism is the other end of this spectrum I would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Socialism worked as a political system in USSR. That's a historical fact. It didn't work well, and it wasn't pretty - but your argument doesn't seem to be concerned with those nuances, hence the rest of your post is constructed on a fallacy.

    If you think that capitalism in the 1850s with its system of slavery, or even after the Emancipation Proclamation with rampant child labor was "functional system of governance" then by that metric, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was an amazing success story.
    Nothing in the Soviet Union showed democratic ownership of any of the state run businesses. Most economist would classify the Soviet Union as a state directed economy--you know, the whole tyranny thing gets in the way of social ownership.

    But lets say it was a glorious example of socialism. So a country that lasted what, 60ish years, where 10 million people were murdered in order to maintain the system, and millions more died due to shortages of nearly every kind of good...One where the misery of the system lead to even yourself fleeing from it, and posting in the bosom of the victory of America, and the very system which supposedly makes the system you fled from look amazing!

    Also, there was plenty of forced labor in the Soviet Union brosar, and plenty of child labor, too. The points your attempting to make about the U.S, your 'epitome of socialism' is also guilty of--except the U.S. was actually able to feed its people, prosper and remain together. Meanwhile, the Soviet Union couldn't even put bread on its shelves, nor keep its people from running to us for a better life. Good to have you here, Commrade.

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    Oh, I didn't realize you wanted an entirely semantic argument, down to the textbook definition of "socialism" as a social system or theory in which the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution of goods.

    I just assumed in good faith that we were talking in the usual American parlance of what socialism is, where even a food stamp is seen as socialist.

    Well, you're entirely right then, however you will have to admit then that Venezuela is a capitalist country (and not socialist) as most of its economy up until 2012 was a private sector market economy (and probably most of it still is but I haven't paid that much attention recently). Can't have it both ways, my friend.

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    Angry Gerbil: Yep. There is no ultimate answer or end of history. It's a constant flux which requires constant reevaluation and modification.

    Lithose: Wouldn't it be fair to say that the general thinking in this country is that taxation is antithetical to free markets? I mean, FFS we know the textbook definitions of socialism, but the reality is we live in country where the narrative has been so hijacked and the definition so twisted that Obamacare is equated in about half the country as outright Marxism.

    Academic definitions are important to know but so is what the people believe the word to mean.

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    Registered User Lithose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lleauaric View Post
    It's an important question. I think the most dangerous idea in our society is the conflation of capitalism with religion. There are way to many people who equate capitalism with Jesus, Apple Pie and the constitution.

    The deification of free market absolutism to the rejection of all other approaches is suicidal
    Well, Capitalism in its pure form is terrible--but it functions. And it can lead to large wealth generation. So it functions 'well' in certain aspects. It's certainly not ideal. I actually believe that one day socialism will indeed replace it, despite what I've said in this thread. But it can't happen with our level of technology. Really that's the biggest problem, technology--humans vs social strategies. There is a reason why the most effective strategies in game theory break down very quickly under socialistic paradigms. Humans just can't make it work.

    This does not mean it can't work, it can. But like any big thing it's going to require a lot of other advances to get us there. Going to the moon was more than just rocket technology; it required metallurgy, chemistry for fuel, electronics ect. Socialism is like that, there are so many fundamental parts that are needed before it becomes a realized thing.

    In any case, no system on paper is perfect, and its silly to hold onto any of them. Capitalism is best when its framework is shifted to suit the needs of people under it, its why there are so many versions of capitalism. And hopefully one day, like feudalism, we'll look back on it as a stepping stone.
    Last edited by Lithose; 05-23-2016 at 03:22 AM.

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    I agree 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithose View Post
    Nothing in the Soviet Union showed democratic ownership of any of the state run businesses. Most economist would classify the Soviet Union as a state directed economy--you know, the whole tyranny thing gets in the way of social ownership.

    But lets say it was a glorious example of socialism. So a country that lasted what, 60ish years, where 10 million people were murdered in order to maintain the system, and millions more died due to shortages of nearly every kind of good...One where the misery of the system lead to even yourself fleeing from it, and posting in the bosom of the victory of America, and the very system which supposedly makes the system you fled from look amazing!

    Also, there was plenty of forced labor in the Soviet Union brosar, and plenty of child labor, too. The points your attempting to make about the U.S, your 'epitome of socialism' is also guilty of--except the U.S. was actually able to feed its people, prosper and remain together. Meanwhile, the Soviet Union couldn't even put bread on its shelves, nor keep its people from running to us for a better life. Good to have you here, Commrade.
    LOL, now you are just conflating a political and an economical system in an attempt to salvage this

    If the criticism of USSR's economical system is inextricably tied to its political system then the millions of enslaved blacks for 200 years in US are just a valid as a criticism of the capitalist system, as the gulags are to the Russian socialism. Or the genocide of the native americans or the hundreds of imperial wars that US waged and the millions of lives it destroyed around the world from Indonesia, to Iraq to Guatemala - but I don't want to go all Noam Chomsky on you.

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    Hamburger in Venezual now is $170, a hotel room $6k. They are blaming it on people gouging lol. Considering they are running their power plants 4 hours a day now expect it to get a lot worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    Oh, I didn't realize you wanted an entirely semantic argument, down to the textbook definition of "socialism" as a social system or theory in which the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution of goods.

    I just assumed in good faith that we were talking in the usual American parlance of what socialism is, where even a food stamp is seen as socialist.

    Well, you're entirely right then, however you will have to admit then that Venezuela is a capitalist country (and not socialist) as most of its economy up until 2012 was a private sector market economy (and probably most of it still is but I haven't paid that much attention recently). Can't have it both ways, my friend.
    Yes, because using the actual definitions of things rather than crazy American rhetoric is so silly.

    I never made an argument about Venezuela. Venezuela was doing well until Chavez began nationalizing or threatening to nationalize everything--the moment he began to lead toward socialism in more than name only, his country shit the bed. I guess 21st century socialism (IE capitalism with leaders saying they are socialist) lost its luster.

    So obviously the answer to further economic terribleness by the new President is...more forced "socialism" (Which will technically be socialism since he's still technically elected. But I don't expect that to last long.) So yes, things worked with near tyrannical capitalism disguised as socialism, then when movements were made toward socialism, things really went to hell. You're right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Araysar View Post
    LOL, now you are just conflating a political and an economical system in an attempt to salvage this

    If the criticism of USSR's economical system is inextricably tied to its political system then the millions of enslaved blacks for 200 years in US are just a valid as a criticism of the capitalist system, as the gulags are to the Russian socialism. Or the genocide of the native americans or the hundreds of imperial wars that US waged and the millions of lives it destroyed around the world from Indonesia, to Iraq to Guatemala - but I don't want to go all Noam Chomsky on you.
    Yes, those all are valid criticisms, Ary. Why wouldn't they be? And in every case, what Russia did was worse--what any 'socialist' state did was way worse. The scales aren't even close. Not even a little. I won't even bring Mao into this. The fact is, what happens after someone tries to implement socialism is often horrific and leads to incredible amounts of suffering due to the nature of the human condition mixing with socialist structures.

    These same things tend to lead to suffering under capitalism as well, but capitalism breaks up power structures and has a slow fail progress toward monopolization--which leaves room and time for democracy to flourish and make alterations and control the fail state (Or alter it). This is the critical difference. Socialism collects power, so the fail state is accelerated. So the worst aspects of Capitalism are achieved breath takingly quickly under 'socialism', while you get none of the benefits.

    But you get a feel good word, I suppose. And you get motivated immigrants who move to working economies, like yourself--so that's good for us.
    Last edited by Lithose; 05-23-2016 at 03:23 AM.

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    Cool, good chat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wormie View Post
    Roads? Police? Country Clerks? Military? Courts? How about the US dollar itself? All of these and many many more that make the country what it is today are socially owned hence are socialist.
    That's not socialism. Those things you've listed work just fine without socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talos View Post
    That's not socialism. Those things you've listed work just fine without socialism.
    All those things, and others like it, provide a basis for creation and consumption of goods. They are necessary for capitalism to flourish. Also private militias, roads, police enforcement and county clerks/land registries did not work fine before being taken over by the state.

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    I don't think the socialism aspect of Venezuela's economy precipitated the collapse as much as their lack of diversification. The country has one and only one product = oil. Converting some of that oil revenue into bankrolling development of other non-resource based economic engines could have allowed the country to weather the collapse of the oil market. I say "could" because it would have taken a LOT of effort during the years they were flush with cash to invent whole new industrial capabilities to replace the lost oil revenue.

    This is exactly why Qatar and UAE have been trying to reinvent themselves for the past couple of decades.

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    You know, shit's kinda crazy when GA is actually a reasonable voice in a thread.

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    There comes a point in everyone's life where they realize that I am the most intelligent, reasonable person that has existed in human history.

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    Then the Meth wears off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Antony View Post
    There comes a point in everyone's life where they realize that I am the most intelligent, reasonable person that has existed in human history.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palum View Post
    Oh good counterpoint. On one hand we have Venezuela, Greece and soon more European spcialisy dominoes falling and on the other...? Oh.
    The best counterpoint to Greece and Venezuela would be South Korea. For sure, right wing ideology has made them very rich, educated, and hardworking. It's also left them so overworked and miserable they've basically stopped having children, and so racist and xenophobic they can't hope to fix this through immigration. Having essentially zero immigration combined with a birthrate under 1.2 children per woman guarantees eventual collapse, just as surely as Greece's debt did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    The best counterpoint to Greece and Venezuela would be South Korea. For sure, right wing ideology has made them very rich, educated, and hardworking. It's also left them so overworked and miserable they've basically stopped having children, and so racist and xenophobic they can't hope to fix this through immigration. Having essentially zero immigration combined with a birthrate under 1.2 children per woman guarantees eventual collapse, just as surely as Greece's debt did.
    I think they will just build robots instead of collapsing.

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    I knew a guy who spent a year in Venezuela during the late 90s. He said that there is a saying down there that goes something like this:

    So God created the world, and in Venezuela he made the most beautiful landscapes. He also put abundant natural resources. And finally the most fantastic animals and plants. An angel came up to him and said, "you've practically made heaven on Earth here, why would anyone want to leave it and come to our Heaven?" To which God answered: "You haven't seen the people I'm going to put there!"

    I'm paraphrasing a lot, but that was the gist of it. Thought it might be relevant here.

    Edit: It reminds me of a saying that is common in Saudi Arabia (or was about 30 years ago): My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet plane. My grandson will ride a camel.

    Same gist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    The best counterpoint to Greece and Venezuela would be South Korea.
    South Korea doing so much better than Greece and Venezuela that it is kinda mindboggling that you see that as the best counterpoint. Yeah, maybe in decades SK will have a problem. Greece and Venezuala are currently collapsing heh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanoomba View Post
    You're a disgusting person and you should absolutely feel deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    The best counterpoint to Greece and Venezuela would be South Korea. For sure, right wing ideology has made them very rich, educated, and hardworking. It's also left them so overworked and miserable they've basically stopped having children, and so racist and xenophobic they can't hope to fix this through immigration. Having essentially zero immigration combined with a birthrate under 1.2 children per woman guarantees eventual collapse, just as surely as Greece's debt did.
    You think they are overworked and miserable and racist and xenophobic because of right wing ideology?

    With socialist utopia NK right next door also overworked and miserable and racist and... wait..

    Ooooh... I bet that sounded good when you were typing it.

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    Registered Hoser Quaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    You think they are overworked and miserable and racist and xenophobic because of right wing ideology?

    With socialist utopia NK right next door also overworked and miserable and racist and... wait..

    Ooooh... I bet that sounded good when you were typing it.
    People will forever conflate conservative ideals with authoritarian ones, to the detriment of all.

    *shrug*

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    Registered User mkopec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    ... combined with a birthrate under 1.2 children per woman guarantees eventual collapse, just as surely as Greece's debt did.
    This has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia, its the burden of every educated and more atheist 1st world country. Japan, Germany, Nordic countries....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cad View Post
    You think they are overworked and miserable and racist and xenophobic because of right wing ideology?

    With socialist utopia NK right next door also overworked and miserable and racist and... wait..

    Ooooh... I bet that sounded good when you were typing it.
    Yeah lol I was thinking the same thing reading that post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkopec View Post
    This has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia, its the burden of every educated and more atheist 1st world country. Japan, Germany, Nordic countries....
    Yeah, that was some epic correlation that was completely out of left field.

    The lefts desire for organic food makes them autists too, in other news.

    enhanced-buzz-28930-1365534705-8.jpg

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    MAKE EARTH EXTINCT AGAIN! Abefroman's Avatar
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    Doesn't the birth rate fall in just about every society that becomes less religious and more well off? Plus this nanny state bullshit makes being a parent a huge fucking PITA. My parents would have been in jail for how they parented me. My curfew was when the street lights came on, these days that's child abandonment.
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    This has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia, its the burden of every educated and more atheist 1st world country. Japan, Germany, Nordic countries....
    Why do you think Europe let all those migrants in without thinking too hard about it? They need young people and they know it.

    South Korea doing so much better than Greece and Venezuela that it is kinda mindboggling that you see that as the best counterpoint. Yeah, maybe in decades SK will have a problem. Greece and Venezuala are currently collapsing heh.
    The thing is, the people of Greece and Venezuela were happy even when they were doomed. SK is already miserable and it hasn't gone to shit yet.

    You think they are overworked and miserable and racist and xenophobic because of right wing ideology?

    With socialist utopia NK right next door also overworked and miserable and racist and... wait..

    Ooooh... I bet that sounded good when you were typing it.
    I'm not sure what North Korea has to do with this. Mercantilism, militarism, and xenophobia are typically not schools of thought associated with the left. Neither is closing your borders to nearly all immigration, and having the absolute bare minimum social programs possible. South Korea has the longest working hours in the first world, and their education standards are the highest by a fairly large margin. Everyday living in SK sucks ass because you have to work so hard and there's so much pressure. Their suicide rate is off the charts because so many people just can't hack it and their system has no sympathy for failures whatsoever, regardless of the reason. The social safety net is virtually nonexistent, if you can't hack 12 hours of studying a day into extraordinarily harsh military service into 12 hours of work a day, they pretty much expect you to kill yourself and stop wasting their oxygen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    Why do you think Europe let all those migrants in without thinking too hard about it? They need young people and they know it.
    I know this, again I was talking about how every educated 1st wold country is going through this. We probably would be going through it ourselves without the influx of fresh immigrants, legal and non legal. Its not because of xenophobia racism and the evil RIGHT that birthrates decline, you fucktard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    I'm not sure what North Korea has to do with this. Mercantilism, militarism, and xenophobia are typically not schools of thought associated with the left. Neither is closing your borders to nearly all immigration, and having the absolute bare minimum social programs possible. South Korea has the longest working hours in the first world, and their education standards are the highest by a fairly large margin. Living in SK sucks ass because you have to work so hard and there's so much pressure. Their suicide rate is off the charts because so many people just can't hack it and their system has no sympathy for failures whatsoever, regardless of the reason. The social safety net is virtually nonexistent, if you can't hack 12 hours of studying a day into extraordinarily harsh military service into 12 hours of work a day, they pretty much expect you to kill yourself and stop wasting their oxygen.
    Wow, this sounds a lot like Japan too. Japan and S.Korea is unusual because it's in the "western" sphere while not being truly western. So it can be hard to describe them as being "liberal" or "conservative." You could call them socially conservative and fiscally liberal though if you wanted to. They have not adopted neoliberal ideology so closely and have not supported a large scale immigration program. Yet they are allied to the Liberal Globalist West. It think its the difference in culture.

    The right place to be is in the middle, not the left or right. Either of which harbor some shitty fanatical bullshit that will drag any society down. This is why you have to draw on both to have balance, yin yang type of thing. Yeah ultra right wing sucks, but so does ultra left wing. Either of which can be proven to be wrong with history. There is no such thing as an utopia because human nature and condition will not allow it. you will always have wolves and sheep. Its the system that least exploits their sheep is the one you want to be a part of.

    There is also nothing inherently wrong with wanting to preserve your nationality and heritage. I mean, why have boarders and names of countries at all then? and even if you tear all the boarders down and make everything global and universal, people will still want to migrate to other people that are like them. again, its human nature. Is it racist of a S. Korean to want to marry another S. Korean over someone else to preserve their race, culture and customs? How bout the Pole that wants to only marry another Pole?
    Last edited by mkopec; 05-24-2016 at 05:44 PM.

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